Documentary "Simply Raw: Reversing Diabeties in 30 days"

[Jack Kerouac]

Sorry Skorian. I did more than enough to prove that video flawed. You cannot tell somebody that asking for scientific research on a subject is circular logic- that's the kind of evidence people need to back up health based claims in the real world that the rest of us live in. You lost the argument and there is no point in talking with you if you are going to just avoid the central issue that this stuff is not backed by scientific research. Especially after I proved the video was made by people who make tons of money selling stuff to new agers and conspiracy theorists- good grief.

If you can't see a con act this obvious I don't know what to tell you. I was extremely thorough in my analysis of your video already and you just avoided what I said that you didn't want to hear and acted as if it doesn't matter that I can show these people have a vested interest in selling non scientifically backed information to the public whether or not it is true.

There's the saying "buyer beware". Well you need to learn how the real world operates. I know you apparently believe anything that is conspiracy theory and whatnot, but that's the real conspiracy that traps many people. Getting conned by people telling you the establishment is conning you so you should give them your money instead does NOT get you any closer to the truth.

These people are obviously making money just making random claims that they cannot prove, and you are still sticking up for them and almost proud that you don't even wish them to provide you with scientific evidence to back their strong claims... makes no sense. Nothing is more closed minded than not expecting people profiting off of something to go through the proper channels to prove that it works.

[Jack Kerouac]

Skorian Wrote:This statement is made upon the assumption that you are doing a starvation diet. Which means you wouldn't be getting enough calories and protein to maintain your muscle. Which is exactly why not eating to lose weight is a bad idea. When people don't eat to lose weight they lose muscle, muscle is our number one fat burner, and then when they quit the diet, put on more fat then they had to begin with.

In fact, if you eat a healthy diet and lift weights, that is a very effective way to lose it. Of course if you struggle to have the energy to lift, then eating healthy for a while can help you get the energy needed to do weight training..

This is not true. You need a deficit of calories to lose weight. You cannot build muscle and lose fat at the same time- it's one or the other.

You will ALWAYS lose a bit of muscle while losing fat, but it's minimized if you only lose one to 2 pounds a week.

And that is already considering that you're still lifting weights while losing weight and eating healthy and enough protein.

[Skorian]

Jack Kerouac Wrote:Sorry Skorian. I did more than enough to prove that video flawed. You cannot tell somebody that asking for scientific research on a subject is circular logic- that's the kind of evidence people need to back up health based claims in the real world that the rest of us live in. You lost the argument and there is no point in talking with you if you are going to just avoid the central issue that this stuff is not backed by scientific research. Especially after I proved the video was made by people who make tons of money selling stuff to new agers and conspiracy theorists- good grief.

If you can't see a con act this obvious I don't know what to tell you. I was extremely thorough in my analysis of your video already and you just avoided what I said that you didn't want to hear and acted as if it doesn't matter that I can show these people have a vested interest in selling non scientifically backed information to the public whether or not it is true.

There's the saying "buyer beware". Well you need to learn how the real world operates. I know you apparently believe anything that is conspiracy theory and whatnot, but that's the real conspiracy that traps many people. Getting conned by people telling you the establishment is conning you so you should give them your money instead does NOT get you any closer to the truth.

These people are obviously making money just making random claims that they cannot prove, and you are still sticking up for them and almost proud that you don't even wish them to provide you with scientific evidence to back their strong claims... makes no sense. Nothing is more closed minded than not expecting people profiting off of something to go through the proper channels to prove that it works.

Ok then, how many studies, besides the video documentary study, to get you to acknowledge that you have no clue what your talking about?

Here is one. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.full

Which comes to two studies that you now have. I will look for the documentation of the documentary.

Here is a list of studies done only by Dr. Neal Barnard who is one of the doctors behind this documentary. Your going to argue that you know more then him? http://www.nealbarnard.org/pubs.cfm

I wonder how many more studies I can find from the doctors behind this documentary?

I already told you there were studies...

Jack Kerouac Wrote:

Skorian Wrote:This statement is made upon the assumption that you are doing a starvation diet. Which means you wouldn't be getting enough calories and protein to maintain your muscle. Which is exactly why not eating to lose weight is a bad idea. When people don't eat to lose weight they lose muscle, muscle is our number one fat burner, and then when they quit the diet, put on more fat then they had to begin with.

In fact, if you eat a healthy diet and lift weights, that is a very effective way to lose it. Of course if you struggle to have the energy to lift, then eating healthy for a while can help you get the energy needed to do weight training..

This is not true. You need a deficit of calories to lose weight. You cannot build muscle and lose fat at the same time- it's one or the other.

Oh really??? So burning calories makes no difference then according to you? According to you every body builder should be overweight... Why then do some people consume 4000 or more calories a day and they have low body fat? You have no clue what your talking about.

You will ALWAYS lose a bit of muscle while losing fat, but it's minimized if you only lose one to 2 pounds a week.

Wrong...

And that is already considering that you're still lifting weights while losing weight and eating healthy and enough protein.

This is all still based upon the assumption that you are on a starvation diet. Which means less then about 1500 to 2000 calories.

Where do you get your information? The circus?

Here is a nutrition based scientific community. http://www.nutrition.org/

Do not attack the field of nutrition. You have no idea what your talking about.

[Jack Kerouac]

Skorian Wrote:Here is one. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.full

Which comes to two studies that you now have. I will look for the documentation of the documentary.

Actually that's one study. A documentary is not a scientific study...

And that study doesn't say that it reverses diabetes like your video claims. It says "A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes "

But at least you got something that appears to be published in a peer reviewe journal. Props on that. That's a lot better than giving us a documentary which shows nothing.

It still doesn't support the large claim of the video however.

Quote:Here is a list of studies done only by Dr. Neal Barnard who is one of the doctors behind this documentary. Your going to argue that you know more then him? http://www.nealbarnard.org/pubs.cfm

You fail to grasp the concept that just because somebody is a doctor doesn't mean that you have to trust everything they say- especially when they're involved in money making videos with spiritual gurus.

Scientific research is necessary to prove a health claim- not doctor credentials.

Quote:I wonder how many more studies I can find from the doctors behind this documentary?

We need studies that support the hypothesis of the video- not just studies conducted by the people involved. And they need to be from credible peer reviewed journals.

Quote:Oh really??? So burning calories makes no difference then according to you? According to you every body builder should be overweight... You have no clue what your talking about. Why then do some people consume 4000 or more calories a day and they have low body fat?

When body builders cut, they eat a caloric deficit- every single time. When they bulk, they eat a caloric excess. And if they're eating 4000 or more calories a day, they probably either are 1) bulking, or 2) they have the muscle mass to burn that many calories. 4000 calories is not that much for a big body builder. Many body builders DO get HUGELY overweight while bulking though.

http://yeahmanh.com/wp-content/uploads/2...priest.jpg

4000 calories a day would be nothing to that guy.

Body builders who do not do the cut/bulk process eat the exact amount of calories necessary every day (this is a HELL of a lot more work than just eating healthy) and work out hard enough to maximize muscle mass growth without putting on excess fat- that too is possible. But they had to cut before they started that process or they wouldn't have low body fat to begin with, so somewhere down the line they at a caloric deficit.

If you have a gut, you can workout all you want, but if you don't eat a caloric deficit, you're not going to ever have a flat stomach.

Quote:Wrong...

This is all still based upon the assumption that you are on a starvation diet. Which means less then about 1500 to 2000 calories.

Um, no. A caloric deficit is determined by your height, weight, muscle mass, amount of working out etc. There is no set amount of calories to have a caloric deficit, as it will be a different number for each person.

A 3000 calorie diet might be a huge caloric deficit for a big body builder. If Michael Phelps ate that many calories he'd be a twig in no time.

Phelps eats 12000 calories a day:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08132008/new...124248.htm

It has to do with his muscle mass, height, and the fact that he uses an insaine amount of calories each day training.

Quote:Where do you get your information? The circus?[/color]

Body building sites, men's health magazines, and personal trainers. What I'm saying about weight loss is considered basic common knowledge.

If you lose fat, you're going to lose muscle mass as well- the best you can do is minimize the amount. The best way to minimize it is to limit the amount of pounds you lose a week (for most people more than 2 pounds a week will shed a lot more muscle), lift weights, and eat plenty of protein.

[Skorian]

Jack Kerouac Wrote:Actually that's one study. A documentary is not a scientific study...

It isn't the documentation for the study, but it is video documentation of a study being done.

And that study doesn't say that it reverses diabetes like your video claims. It says "A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes "

Watch the video.... It isn't making claims. It takes 6 diabetics and cures 4 on video. One guy doesn't make it and has to leave. He doesn't like the food. Another guy cheats on the diet, he also lied to them and went in with type I diabetes. Nonetheless they help both to massively lower their blood sugar and thus their needed insulin. I am sure there is documentation of the event that probably gives greater details. The documentary was taken at http://www.treeoflife.nu/welcome a health clinic. One of the services they offer to people is to teach them how to reverse their diabetes. It is what they do.

The study as I understand it is a less intrusive diet. It doesn't require individuals to eat nearly as healthy as the retreat.

The long post above explains in detail what can be seen by looking at cells under a microscope. They know what causes diabetes. Removing that cause removes the diabetes.

But at least you got something that appears to be published in a peer reviewe journal. Props on that. That's a lot better than giving us a documentary which shows nothing.

The documentary shows alot more then you think.

It still doesn't support the large claim of the video however.

You fail to grasp the concept that just because somebody is a doctor doesn't mean that you have to trust everything they say- especially when they're involved in money making videos with spiritual gurus.

Scientific research is necessary to prove a health claim- not doctor credentials.

There is more then credentials there.

We need studies that support the hypothesis of the video- not just studies conducted by the people involved. And they need to be from credible peer reviewed journals.

When body builders cut, they eat a caloric deficit- every single time. When they bulk, they eat a caloric excess. And if they're eating 4000 or more calories a day, they probably either are 1) bulking, or 2) they have the muscle mass to burn that many calories. 4000 calories is not that much for a big body builder. Many body builders DO get HUGELY overweight while bulking though.

They can get overweight, because they are intentionally eating massive excesses of calories to “maximize” muscle growth.

When they cut, it is for competitions so that they can get the ripped look. It is not to get a healthy weight. They actually lose so much fat that it is not healthy. They go below the fat composition that the body needs to have, you need some fat. They eat very specific diets along with certian supplements so as to even thin their skin. All for competitions.

You can lose weight and build muscle. The loss of muscle is only if you eat far too little calories to sustain yourself. As long as one meets the base calories they need and get enough protein they will not canalize muscle.

You don’t know what you’re talking about.


http://yeahmanh.com/wp-content/uploads/2...priest.jpg

4000 calories a day would be nothing to that guy.

Body builders who do not do the cut/bulk process eat the exact amount of calories necessary every day (this is a HELL of a lot more work than just eating healthy) and work out hard enough to maximize muscle mass growth without putting on excess fat- that too is possible. But they had to cut before they started that process or they wouldn't have low body fat to begin with, so somewhere down the line they at a caloric deficit.

If you have a gut, you can workout all you want, but if you don't eat a caloric deficit, you're not going to ever have a flat stomach.

More muscle means the base calories you burn in a day doing nothing increases. It greatly increases how much you burn in a day if you are active. The body can burn fat and not muscle. The "only" exception is if you want to lose fat down to an "extremely" low percentage for competitions. That is the only reason they do that.

You’re still wrong. You learned this from an advertisement selling a product or something. They are trying to convince people to get very very lean. Which isn't really healthy.

Body building sites, men's health magazines, and personal trainers. What I'm saying about weight loss is considered basic common knowledge.

Body building sites in general are not a good source of information. Magazines in general are worthless as a source of information. Their articles are heavily influenced by the advertising dollars of their ads. I definitely would not use the information from these sources as a source of information on nutrition. Many body-building products are flat out bad for you. The trainers may be getting their information from poor sources themselves. I guess it depends. Small wonder your paranoid.

Yes, you (sometimes) need fewer calories then your going to burn, but losing muscle has alot to do with how far you cut that back and what you eat. From another perspective you can try to burn more then you eat. Also, some foods lend themselves to putting on fat much more then others. It is possible to consume way more then you burn and not become fat. Where consuming those foods will generally help you lose weight. The problem with body builders is they often get their calories from shitty sources. Weight gainer formulas are generally filled with very unhealthy ingredients. Not all calories are created equally. The body actually can block the absorption of carbs if it is very healthy. The reason people put on fat is more complex then simply the number of calories, though that is one major factor. In general people get overweight because of underlying health problems.

The reasons these people are spiritual leaders and the like is because when you eat really well you are very much the reverse of depressed. So empowering people sort of comes naturally with that. It comes hand in hand with a sort of spirituality that is sort of like the Native Americans in a way. I am sure someone getting their health information out of men’s health would not understand that. There is no real way I can explain it.

Do you know that diabeties is not only caused by a lack of insulin, but also insulin resistence? The fact that they have identified the exact cause of diabeties is huge.

I will just say that what they say about fats clogging up the cells being responsible for insulin resistance makes a good deal of sense with everything else I have read. That alone sort of defeats the need for studies really. Though I am sure you and others don't understand that or why. If you know exactly how something works or why, then it sort of makes studies moot. It is sort of like watching a how to build a birdhouse documentary and then claiming you have to have studies to prove you can build it. You’re making your arguments on total ignorance. The way I see it, your lazy and don’t want to take responsibility for your health.

Food isn't really a drug and generally drugs are what need studies. The reason studies are needed is because many are so ineffective that a study is needed to prove if it is safe or works at all. When you’re talking about a subject like this. If you can cure a few people. That sort of proves itself. If you can document that truthfully where people can watch it. Then well. Nothing is more powerful then that. You sort of have an obsession with studies really. Don't think you really understand what they are for. But nutrition does do studies so they have the documents. I knew from the start that you're really just arguing to argue. It was obvious. You’re trying to prove how much you know by proving how much you actually don’t know. It is a very circular argument.

I have long known that the cells in our body use what fats are available to them. If you eat bad fats they will use the bad fats and it affects your body and mind. Your body will use what is there for it to use. Just like if you build a house with crap lumber, the end result can be a wobbly house. What you eat affects alot of things.

When you cook food, if it is over cooked it actually changes some of its components chemical structure. Depending on what components your talking about and the temperature. What happens is it can alter parts of foods so that actually become unhealthy. This is especially true of fats and is how trans fats come to be. You can make trans fats right in your kitchen. Just like heat can put chemicals together or break them apart, it can also alter them.

We evolved on a certian diet. In the last 50 years or so we have totally gotten away from eating healthy things. The average person in the US eats HORRIBLE. Heat actually damages many things in food. It can especially make meats bad for you. However, with meats you need to be concerned with bacteria and parasites. This is why some cultures smoke and eat meat raw. Germans have a kind of meat they prepare somehow and eat raw.

You can treat alot of illnesses with diet, though there can be limitations. The pharmaceutical industry tries to blame it all on genes because it makes people feel helpless and that the only treatment is the patented one they have. The health of people in the US is SOOO bad compared to other parts of the world. You have no idea. It has alot to do with our capitalism and is very sad. We take capitalism a bit too far. It has good sides, but it really doesn't belong in medicine, education, or academic studies.

Another fact is that the national food pyramid, both the new and the old are BS. There are books about it. I know of one book I ran across by one of the old national health advisors that worked in Washington. The food pyramid we have is more about selling grains, then it actually being needed as the main staple of our diet. It has more to do with the ability to store dry foods then it does about what we should be eating. It is business as usual. People who know what they are talking about want it changed, but business types hold the reins.

[EveWasFramed]

You know, you two can debate these issues until the cows come home and neither of you is going to change your opinion on anything, so why keep on with this?
Perhaps it would be better to continue this debate in PM.

[Skorian]

Well I emailed them. Maybe I will call them.

It is not all that easy to track down just any studies really. Perhaps because I generally don’t spend much time looking for studies. Sometimes they are given where things are said. What is funny though is that studies don’t mean squat. I know of so many studies that have used trickery. Large corporations can purchase studies to say about anything. There are companies where that is what they do. They produce studies to support products. Then corrupt businesses convince people the only proof worth anything is studies. You can also play with statistics till they will seem to say almost anything. It is total balony that people aren’t bright enough to know anything that makes anecdotes worth anything. Anecdotes are worth a lot. So many double blind studies are flawed. The two are equal really. Either one can be lied in or the truth can be told. Double blind studies also often make the mistake where they don’t account for a lot of variables, which renders them useless.

I find it more useful to look into how things work and that can be shown by a verifiable means. Once you understand how things work, then it is fairly easy to fix whatever it is.

Claiming that a video that shows people curing their diabetes isn't proof, just because it is a documentary is absurd. Is like saying documenting climbing Mt. Everest as a documentary isn't a climbing expedition. Personally I think he needs to prove to himself that it is legit. That is the only way to learn something. You look into it yourself with an open mind.

The thing is I suppose I should mention that my chiropractor is into this sort of stuff. She has a bunch of degrees and relies heavily on using all sorts of diagnostic tests that she sends all over the country to the same labs as hospitals. My mother was crippled and in a wheel chair where she could barely walk due to arthritis. She went to several doctors and they made her worse. They couldn't even figure out what she had. She found this chiropractor and within weeks started to get well. She walks normal now. All because of nutrition. I have had my own experiences.

She has people come to her from states away and performs what some would consider miracles I guess, but there is no magic in it. It is all science and understanding how things work. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Jack doesn't have a clue what he is talking about at all. This documentary is not a hypothesis, it is evidence on it's own. There is documentation on it somewhere.

[Jack Kerouac]

You just don't understand what scientific research is and why it is important for advocates of health treatments to give scientific evidence for their claims.

I understand that you're not used to looking for scientific studies, because truth isn't actually what you're after. You're after anything that can reassure you that the world you live in is one giant conspiracy. That's not how you get at truth. At least you were able to find one study that showed a vegan diet can lesson some symptoms of diabetes, that's great- but it still didn't support the idea that diabetes is reversable in 30 days by a raw food diet. I'm going to give you credit for trying though.

You still completely fail to understand reality though by your inability to get that scientific research requires more than a few subjects, and that documentaries can be biased based on the intent of the person putting the money into them. And anything that comes from Oprah especially, or involves ANY spiritual leaders of any kind, is probably going to be a load of nonsense that tells people what they want to hear.

And your responce about weight loss- Bottom line, you shouldn't shoot to lose more than 1 or 2 pounds a week if you want to limit muscle mass loss. That's all that needs to be said about that.

[VanillaCreme]

If only that really worked. :< I heard somewhere that insulin doesn't work on a lot of people either.

[Lonesome Crow]

I know this much...

What works for me might kill you and what works for you might kill me.