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Dating women from work
#11
I don't see why you can't date a co-worker... plenty of people do exactly that. I suppose if you assume that the relationship will eventually sour, that would suck... but then you're kind of expecting to fail before you've even started.

In my experience, problems with harassment have only happened when one side or the other (yes women cross the line too) have been told that the attention is unwanted, repeatedly and continue to do it anyway. And it's way more than simple flirting or asking some one out for coffee. If you don't want to worry about harassment... just don't harass some one. If they tell you no, or that the attention is unwanted... stop.
And for the record... harassment isn't about getting some one to date you. It's about exerting your power over some one else. When I worked in a call center, I had a co-worker (female) who decided it was ok to grab the balls of a male co-worker (gay) and it wasn't about getting him to like her, she just wanted to do it. She should have been fired,(because you shouldn't have to be told that shit isn't ok) but he didn't report her. At the factory where I work now, there have been two guys fired for harassment in the eight years I've worked there. The one was repeatedly grabbing the ass of this 18 year old new hire and she made it clear she didn't like it. That went on for months before he was fired. I don't know what the situation was with the other guy.

But that's my experience...
Why do you guys think that would be an issue?

Also, Ska... if a woman is going to hold your flaws (nerves, lack of confidence, whatever the bad first impression was) against you before she's even had a chance to get to know you, that sounds like a pretty huge flaw on her part. Are you sure she's a good fish? You can throw back the ones you don't like.

Of course, there's always the option of not dating at all...
I don't know if it's easier or not... but it's kind of where I've landed.
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#12
Why do people make dating out to be this big horrible thing? If you think you like someone, ask them for coffee or tea or even lunch at work, whether you are a man or woman. You aren't proposing, for fuck's sake, you are just getting to know them. Take the damn pressure off and don't make it a damn "DATE," just get to know them better. If it happens, it happens.
And holy shit, stop making excuses, stop blaming other people, stop thinking you are owed anything. Put up or shut up. If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Get over yourself. Again, I don't care if you are a man or a woman.
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#13
Don’t do it OP have made this mistake before and been burned every time. Not that it matters where I meet people I’m still rejected. But at least with a non co-worker I don’t have to see or deal with them everyday.
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#14
Metoo seems to have people paranoid. Women react badly to unwanted attention no matter where it occurs (and yes Callie that does include unwanted invites to coffee) but unless you cross a boundary as far as repeated requests, asking a direct report out, or generally shitty behaviour, there's nothing they can do as far as HR is concerned.
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#15
(02-18-2019, 10:00 PM)ardour Wrote: Metoo seems to have people paranoid. Women react badly to unwanted attention no matter where it occurs (and yes Callie that does include unwanted invites to coffee)  but unless you cross a boundary as far as repeated requests, asking a direct report out, or generally shitty behaviour,  there's nothing they can do as far as HR is concerned.

Don't even get me started on the MeToo crap.  In theory, it was a good idea.  In reality, it's an utter fucking mess that has done nothing but give people a chance to take revenge.   Is it all bullshit?  No, a lot of those women are most likely telling the truth, especially those who don't name names. 

BUT, aside from that.  If the woman (or man, for that matter) is a decent person, you won't have any issues.  The worst you will get from a decent person is a no.  And yes, I know how far fetched the idea of a DECENT person being out there is, but I assure you that there are still decent people out there.  I think there are a lot of people out there that would be willing to get to know someone.  It's usually not a bad thing to get to know more people. It won't always turn into a relationship, but it could lead to a pretty good friendship.  So yeah, take the pressure off and stop looking for it to be your "last chance" at a relationship and just take the time to get to know people.  You never know when it could turn into more.  If the person says no, let it go, leave them alone.  If you're worried about some soulless bitch crying wolf, make sure there are other people around to hear what goes on.
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#16
(02-18-2019, 07:43 PM)kaetic Wrote: And for the record... harassment isn't about getting some one to date you. It's about exerting your power over some one else.

The thing with that is, it seems that attracting a woman means just that - showing them you can exert power over others, because you're better/stronger than them.  I've read and watched a lot of things that say the thing that a woman found attractive in a man was because he was powerful, assertive, even dominant.  This isn't something I've seen only a few times either.  Usually it's more about showing women that you have power over other men, but it seems that women want you to at least take a dominant tone in conversation with them - something along the lines of witty banter/teasing/sarcasm, sexual innuendo, cockiness, or the "hint of danger"/rebelliousness/edginess/darkness.  And that's something I just can't do.

I think somewhere along the line, these "Dark Triad" personality traits became the thing women wanted.  But it's so hard for people like me, who weren't raised that way and aren't that way instinctively.  It goes against everything I was taught and against everything I feel is true.  I hate it, but, it's what women seem to want.  They think it's exciting or makes them feel delicate or feminine or something.  I don't know.  I wish there was another way.

(02-18-2019, 07:43 PM)kaetic Wrote: Also, Ska... if a woman is going to hold your flaws (nerves, lack of confidence, whatever the bad first impression was) against you before she's even had a chance to get to know you, that sounds like a pretty huge flaw on her part. Are you sure she's a good fish? You can throw back the ones you don't like.

Yeah, it does sound like a flaw on their part, but I don't know, no one is perfect.  There's trade-offs with everything.  The bad first impression is usually that I don't come off as cool enough.  I don't come off as having a lot of power.  Not being able to take a dominant tone with a woman I'm talking to.   I don't ridicule/tease the woman or others, I don't like macho stuff like the whole "outlaw" image and personality, I'm not dark and brooding, and I'm not into sexual innuendoes.  I don't come off as tough, dirty, or the laidback, sarcastic, cocky/"funny" attitude.

It's like, I'm not socially aggressive, don't have a social prey drive.  I'm not into being offensive or controversial - I mean, I probably inadvertently offend people when I speak my mind, but there's a difference between this and offending people because you think it's "cool" or to assert power over them.   I try to make up for this by having other things to talk about but it's never enough.  I feel like I'm fundamentally not enough, even though I desperately want to be.

It takes me a long time to figure out how to fit myself in with others and show I could be their kind of person.  The problem is, most women seem to want you to show that you fit in with them and can take the lead in interactions almost instantly.  It's like, they don't want you to become what they want, they want you to randomly just so happen to already be it.  

And it doesn't help that I almost never meet anyone that makes me curious about them, either.  So what few times I meet someone I do like, every chance counts.

(02-18-2019, 07:43 PM)kaetic Wrote: Of course, there's always the option of not dating at all...
I don't know if it's easier or not... but it's kind of where I've landed.

That is an option, but to me, that's like saying there's always the option of giving up and just drinking my life away.  It's true, but I really don't want to be forced down into that.  I've always wanted, wished, hoped for the experience of being with someone - sex, touching, conversation, connection.  Having someone to share all sorts of things with, even just chatting about nothing in particular. Emotional warmth and closeness.  Having someone see something special in me.  Especially being with someone I actually want to be with instead of someone I settled for cause it was that or nothing.  I want to know what it's like before my life ends. I want to know if it really is how everyone says it is, and what that feels like. Hearing about it secondhand, I get an abstract idea of it, but it's not the same as experiencing it.  And I want to get out from under this soul-crushing singledom that makes almost everything else feel hollow, like it's just a distraction. I get really annoyed when I see someone (who likely doesn't even have this problem) say "oh there's more to life than sex/relationships/women dude" because to me, everything else just feels like a distraction until I figure out how to be impressive/interesting/cool enough for someone. I hate how it feels like this singledom is being forced on me, and I don't have the power to throw it off. I hate feeling like I'm made to submit to it. It makes me feel like I'm a part of some kind of underclass.  I want to know what it's like to finally defy and defeat this limitation, this feeling that sex and relationships is like this gated community that's reserved for the so-called "better" people, and break its power, their power over me. I want to prove that I am good enough and they aren't better than me.  Getting out of it would be like standing in the sun after having spent years in jail.  I don't want to have spent my entire life under it, and then died there, and this was all I ever got to know.  That would make my whole life a defeat.  If I knew I was never going to get out, well, I barely want to get out of bed in the morning as it is.  I think I'd give up entirely.  It's really hard to feel like you're just not good enough for this thing that seems so basic, this thing that others take for granted even, but you don't get to experience it at all. I guess that's the thing - I don't want to go through my whole life and never being with someone. Other things, I could take or leave. But this one is really important to me, probably the highest thing left on the bucket list. Not only would I feel like a loser if I never got to experience it, like life/the universe/other people/society made me its bitch for all time, but I'm also genuinely interested in what it's like. That, and I just want to feel like the assholes of the world can't keep me down.

All my life, I've dreamed of getting out of this story of being someone who is stuck at the bottom and into a new story.  It's very important to me to get to experience a better way of life than this.

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#17
I don't see why it can't be done. A year and a half ago, I attended the wedding of a few of my workmates. They new have a few month old baby boy. There's another couple in my workplace. Unsure if they're married or not. Never thought to ask.

That being said, they're generally the exceptions to the rule. Not the rule itself. It's all fun and games until the relationship goes south. Add the workplace into the mix, and the job generally follows suit aswell.

(02-18-2019, 10:00 PM)ardour Wrote: Metoo seems to have people paranoid. Women react badly to unwanted attention no matter where it occurs (and yes Callie that does include unwanted invites to coffee) but unless you cross a boundary as far as repeated requests, asking a direct report out, or generally shitty behaviour, there's nothing they can do as far as HR is concerned.

I concur. And without any surefire way to know what is and isn't unwanted attention, it's just safer to assume that ALL attention is unwanted attention. Whether it's in the workplace or not.
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