Lol, some interesting developments in this thread... excellent!
In the topic of religion as the problem, rather than solution, I must agree 110%. That being said, yes I am Christian and have studied and debated theology to some degree on my own and with practicing Christians, Mormons, Wiccans (witches), Muslims and even Atheists.
The faction I fear the most would have to be Atheists in all honesty.
Atheists have the distinct and defining ability to deny their attachment to, or belief, in any religion, while accepting or validating certain aspects of any of those religions that they see fit. While a Christian saying he agrees with a number of Muslim doctrine would be thought of as perhaps either an objective, or perhaps a confused Christian, a Muslim, in some more extremist sects, can lose his life for agreeing with another religion... especially should he come to realize the inherent flaws in Islamic belief and chose to convert to another religion. (To clarify 'flaws' the Nation of Islam has revised again and again their Koran over the years, and orders the destruction of previous revisions to cover what controversial or contradictory statements may have been found within) To clarify the first line of this paragraph, Atheists can 'play' religious or be sympathetic to a religious persons belief while retaining their own belief that there is no God. The perfect example... Hitler. While the Nazi leader on a great many public occasions spoke of Christ (good percent of Caucasian Germany were Christians at that time) and how God was on their side. He sounds exactly the same in those speeches as George Bush does in his speeches today... it is very creepy (saying nothing for Bush's beliefs, I haven't studied that to a great degree yet. What history I have studied of Bush does disturb me though).
However, while Hitler was a public Christian, he is noted in private by his friends and advisers as having an immense distaste for Christianity and religion on a whole... the religion was proving to be a problem in the conversion and acceptance of his people of the Nazi regime. Censorship played a large part in preventing many of these mislead Christians from knowing the whole truth till after the war. Hitlers belief was Atheist at best... he was a firm believer in Darwinian Evolution. Aryans were the perfect species and everything else was just creatures at lesser levels of evolution, so little better than apes and monkeys. The fact that apes and monkeys would oppose the greater evolved race was appalling to him as well as other Nazi believers, and is still evident in Neo-Nazism today. So sad these people are.
Here is a statement toward evidence of Hitlers belief:
"A nazi bible featuring Adolf Hitler's version of the Ten Commandments has been discovered. Adolf Hitler got his theorists to alter the Commandments - and add two more - in a bid to further the Aryan ideal for the book "Germans With God". New ones included Honour your Fuhrer and your master, Avoid all hypocrisy, and Keep the blood pure and your honour holy. The book, printed in 1941 was meant to be essential reading in Nazi Germany alongside Hitler's Mein Kampf. Hitler hated the church's teachings, but he knew it's power in Nazi Germany and couldn't banish it overnight, so his plan was to gradual Nazifying."
by dailyrecord | 2006-August-09 | Documents, letters, diaries of World War II
The final words of the Bible state quite plainly not to add or remove anything from the book. A man that felt justified in tossing in a couple extra commandments to serve his own ends obviously has little to no understanding of Christianity, or its fundamentals. By his actions alone he proves that he had no belief in God, otherwise he would have never have created Nazism (Being Christian or Atheist, he may still started the war though considering political and social issues that lead up to the war). In short Germany was beaten up pretty bad with WWI. Some Germans were in the standing that they just forget about it, recover after loss, and keep on living. Hitler, among others, was not willing to 'turn the other cheek' as the Bible would have instructed. He sought revenge. He was actually a brilliant tactician. He wanted blood, he knew his people were angry, frustrated, and distraught, he wanted power. He gave the people a direction for their anger... the Jews. That was just the beginning, but it paved the way for him to have totalitarian control of the country.
Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing. However, in my studies I must admit that according to the writings of his confidants (confidants that trusted him enough to commit suicide with him and/or cover their leaders death), the propaganda he had encouraged, and finally the growth and encouragement of Nazism, that Hitler was indeed an Atheist. Atheist in simple definition being the following of no god. A theist follows a god. He thought so greatly of himself that he was willing to alter the Word of God for his own devices... it failed miserably.
Robin said:
Strong beliefs causes conflict, conflict causes war - believing in god doesn't make You suffer or die prematurely, free religion has changed that, but if Your whole nation and leaders believe in him so much that they actually believe it is his will to start a war, fighting back another religion, i sure hope they're gonna suffer and die. What i mean is that religion itself indirectly is one of the causes of suffering and death and that believers are keeping this senseless and illogical ideology alive even today. Choosing side is dangerous, and in the case of religion, without actual meaning.
Personally the thought of man being the greatest power in all existence is very, very frightening. Without actual meaning?! What meaning in life is there to exist without a greater power to keep one in moral check? For example: In case studies of serial killers they often believed that yes, there is a greater power, however they kept with the Atheist foundation that the greatest power is yourself. Humanists are dangerous because a mentally unstable humanist has the power to decide where their own moral compass points without having an objective reference to guide them... ie Christianity with the Bible and Islam with the Koran. The Humanist following Atheist belief of "it's only real if it's a fact" would have only Darwinian teachings as a guide. So, someone mentally disturbed could justify that humans are just animals. I am an animal, I wish to kill. Killing is what the animal kingdom does. Therefore I am in my right to kill... of course the major flaw in such reasoning being that killing another human for whatever purpose is usually accepted in the psychosis of a serial killer by sexual stimuli such as past or present sexual abuse, societal pressure to strive in competition with your peers, or even from sexual over-indulgence. In the case of Jeffery Dahmer he stated in an interview that he was lead to hunting and murdering victims by his addiction to pornography.
The father of Dahmer:
"Lionel Dahmer published a book, A Father's Story, and donated a portion of the proceeds from his book to the victims and their families. Most of the families showed support for Lionel Dahmer and his wife, Shari. He has retired from his career as an analytical chemist and resides with his wife in Medina County, Ohio.
He consults on the evolution versus creationism topic occasionally, and his wife was a member of the board of the Medina County Ohio Horseman's Council."
His father believed and still believes in evolution and natural selection.
So can't we all see that Jeffery was actually just the next leap in evolution. That he was a greater species than us and should have been allowed to remain free and keep up the good work! Evolutionists are very, very dangerous people!
Here is a list of the people that Jeffery justified killing:
Stephen Hicks 18 June, 1978
Steven Tuomi 26 September, 1987
Jamie Doxtator 14 October, 1987
Richard Guerrero 25 March, 1988
Anthony Sears 24 February, 1989
Eddie Smith 36 June, 1990
Ricky Beeks 27 July, 1990
Ernest Miller 22 September, 1990
David Thomas 23 September, 1990
Curtis Straughter 16 February, 1991
Errol Lindsey 19 April, 1991
Tony Hughes 31 May 24, 1991
Konerak Sinthasomphone 14 May 27, 1991
Matt Turner 20 June 30, 1991
Jeremiah Weinberger 23 July 5, 1991
Oliver Lacy 23 July 12, 1991
Joseph Bradeholt 25 July 19, 1991
These people were all able to witness firsthand the wonders of a world that pushes belief in yourself as the greatest power.
God doesn't like those that are luke-warm in their beliefs. I won't put quotations on that because it isn't a direct bible quote, but that is the gist of the statement in the Bible. There is a war, and this war has been going on since the dawn of society and religious factions. Isn't it interesting though how the ancient religions all had a similar basis on a one god, monotheism. And how the numerous Abrahamic religions developed around the same time while independantly in many cases from one another... this was the Axis or Axial Age. 800-200BCE. Prior to these beliefs the popular belief was of polytheist religions. Where people created deities from common things such as the moon, stars, sun, animals, etc.. Arabians were known for their popular pagan beliefs prior to Muhammad proclaiming himself a prophet. Muhammad even went so far as to include a great many pagan rituals into the religion he invented. This helped the pagan Arabian nations to more easily accept his religion. A number of these moon worshiping rituals are still evident today. On the top of every mosque is a moon that has been found in a number of instances in pagan temples, and appears exactly as it does on mosques today, also shown on flags.
"...Its astral foundation is indisputable. As in most contemporary Semitic cults, the southern Arabs worshipped stars and planets, chief among whom were the Sun, Moon and ‘Athtar, the Venus."
Islamic website concerning Arabic beliefs prior to Allah.
"...yet Garbini has produced cogent arguments to show that the attributes of 'lmkh are rather those of a warrior-deity like Greek Herakles or a vegetation god like Dionysus."
Taken from the same Islamic propaganda sight.
I find it very interesting in this article the amount of quotes and references to the Old Testament Bible that the Islamic intellectuals who wrote the article, in the hopes to dispute Robert Morey's article on this subject have used. I checked my bible and was not entirely surprised to see just how out of context the verses were. They tried to turn his theory and evidence around to make it look as though Christianity and Judaism were the moon good worshipers. It doesn't work because their quotes of the bible were taken concerning Hebrews in old testament that had
fallen from Gods favor and began worshiping idols. Reading further on from their quoted verse you learned that those that took to idol worship were punished by God for this act. Nowhere does it state that God was worshiped as the moon as was the historical case with Islamic belief. We have the icon of the cross where our Savior died, not a moon as is the case with Muslim belief. Judaism has the Star of David to represent the root of their beliefs and hereditary ties.
Anyway the past and all origins aside... my next greatest feared religion after Atheism would have to be Muslim:
"Germany was one of the most fiercely religious nations in Europe at the time Hitler rose to power." -Wikipedia (on Christianity and Nazism)
Now we see the Nation of Islam is becoming the most fiercely religious nation in all of the world. It is my honest belief that Muslims will find their Hitler (if they haven't already), and next thing you know they will begin systematic genocide (something already taking place) of any opposition. Palestine is a good example... yes, yes the Jews do strike out on regular occasions in a military capacity against Palestinians. How would you respond if someone sent suicidal extremists into your country strapped with bombs to blow up innocents? We know how America reacted... they declared war! So is it so wrong for Israel to kill people that are willing to blow themselves up anyway? Not in the least, they're just making the process less damaging on their own population. If the Muslims want to commit suicide why can't they do it without killing other innocent people? Why is it that the Bible teaches to love, not hate, not war. While Islam teaches that Allah has chosen them to kill the Jews, and on the chosen day Allah will have them use the knives they carry around to kill all the Jews they can find.
"The killings of the two Jewish men by Muslims who slit there throats in a premeditated yet seemingly 'motiveless' crime .The murders of Ariel Sellouk of Houston and Sebastian Selam of Paris, were classified as criminal acts. What is striking about the case in Houston is that both the prosecutor and defense lawyer admit to having no clue as to the motive. Sebastian's Selam's murderer was labelled "crazy' and the murder was ascribed to the jealousy of the Muslim killer over Selam's sucess as a popular disc jockey. In both cases the men had been on friendly terms with their killers and were lured to their deaths, never believing that the person with whom they had socialised with would savagely turn on them with knives and slit their throats nearly decapitating them. The murders of Ariel Sellouk and Sebastian Selam bear all the hallmarks of Takfir Wal Hijrah. The question remains as to if authorities either did not ask the right questions, or did not want to deal with the fallout which would have resulted if the murders of Ariel Sellouk and Sebastian Selam were labelled terrorist attacks. The fact that 'ticking time bombs' are walking around in the form of young Arab males ready to 'go off' without warning is something which must be investigated if more ritual killings like that of Theo van Gogh , Ariel Sellouk and Sebastian Selam are to be prevented.
Ariel Sellouk, was a Jewish college student in Houston, who had met Mohamed Alayed in school. Saudi national Alayed began a religous transformation and broke off contact with Ariel Sellouk, until last year, when he called him to invite him for a drink. Afterwards Sellouk went with Alayed to his home . Without warning, Alayed seized him from behind and "nearly decapitated him" with a folding knife. His roommate was present at the time and witnessed the slaying. Alayed got a ride to a local mosque and was found days later hiding in an apartment.
Sebastian Selam and his killer had known each other since childhood and lived in the same building in Paris .The family was anti semitic and before the killing, a dead rooster had been put in front of the Selam family door (which is a Muslim symbol for impending death) and a mezuzah (a container with a parchment which Jewish families affix to their doorpost for spiritual protection) had been ripped off. One evening Selam's killer asked him to step into the parking garage, where an aquaintance of the killer was also present. Selam's killer slashed his throat twice, mutilated his face with a fork, and gouged out his both his eyes. Afterwards he mounted the stairs and showed his bloody hands to his mother saying :"I have killed my Jew"." -Seamus McGraw, Militant Islam Monitor
How many other religions, that have the following that Islam constantly brags about, desire their followers to hate a certain group of people and bring death to them?
Robin said:
...but at some point we have to face the realities of the world in which we live and stop preaching the childish idea that we can establish a better world to live in without getting rid of religion first.
Your wishes are heartwarming! Unfortunately i do not share the same thoughts for You.
Wow, well on this last quote I was rather taken aback... the kindhearted atheist becomes rather nasty. Sorry, I understand you're frustrated by Guests statements... it really did kind of surprise me to see you say those words though. Anyway, this will be my last topic of debate for today.
On getting rid of religion- it won't happen. Name one Atheist that could compare in compassion to Mother Teresa? Just one? Didn't think so.
The former U.N. Secretary-General Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, for example, said: "She is the United Nations. She is peace in the world."
You are given 'best wishes' and yet you state in closing that "unfortunately I do not share the same thoughts for You." When my Muslim friend and I get into some of the most heated philosophical debates even to the point where a little name calling may occur, we eventually work it out and leave with good intentions for one another. To deny to reciprocate words of care for another is not a very good example for what New World order you would endorse.
One final point on Atheism... most Communists believe that it's best to subdue religious factions for the sake of peace and equality... it doesn't work very well, and these visionaries of a peaceful world usually imprison or kill people that try to enter their country and share religion. Who is the greater evil: The religious or those that would suppress religion? Think of the millions you would have to kill for the sake of global Atheism. You should read the book
Brave New World by author Robert Huxley if you haven't already.