The death penatly.

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Josh

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I am taking a ethics class in college right now and so far it has been a easy class but I have ran into a chapter that is a bit tough for me and the teacher suggested that I discuss it with other people. Well problem is no one at my school likes me much so I don't have a group to talk to so figured would see what you guys here think about the subject.

So pretty much I am just wondering what your views are on the death penatly and maybe why and what your thinking is if you would. I don't want this to turn into any kind of agurment but I would like it to be somewhat of a discusion so if anyone wants to would be great thanks.
 
OK my view on this is if you have someone that is going to be locked up for the rest of there natural life then what is the point of us (society) paying out all that money to keep him/her alive. And there is not much of a life for the person that's going to live in jail for the rest of there natural is there.

Now if there in there for ever, Then they must of done something real bad. That money that we have to spend on them to keep them alive could be used to save a good persons live from cancer are something. A person that has never done anything wrong.

So I say if there guilty and are never going to be able to be free to lead a normal life then is it not batter for that person and us as a society just to end it and let it be in the hands of god to what to deiced for this person. After all if we have to keep someone locked up for all there life then we have already failed this person.
 
I hope that this doesn't turn into an argument either lol.
Well from what I have read about and seen in the media, the punishment given for some crimes committed is way to low. But about the death penalty, In most cases I think, no, it shouldn't apply, but some of the acts that have occurred in the past have been so terrible and against humanitiy, it tends to make me think otherwise at times.
 
Hey bluey just an intresting stat from Jeffrey Reiman a professor of philosophy at American University the costs in florida for a death sententance from start to finish costs around 3.18 million dollars the cost of keeping someone imprisoned for 40 years (the average life sententance) is around $500,000. So it really costs less to keep someone alive and there is some chance they might be able to give back to society.

Another question for you guys just because this is my main objection for the death penatly is that is just feels so barbaric to me I mean we kill another human being. Also I really think it's a much worse penatly to have to live the rest of your life then being put to death.

Then again though I have never faced say a sitation where I have had someone close to me murdered but I would hope I would feel the same as I do now because if I did change my mind it wouldn't be because I want justice but that I want revenge and thats not justice.
 
My feelings are..a violent crime committed against children should automatically include the death penalty.
 
3.18 million dollars, MAN that just crazy,,, I mean like OMG!!! But a bullet cost like 1$ at most lol ok I can imagine all the costs so ok me wrong lol

I agree with you tho about being locked up for me that would be a fate weirs the death.

To me its barbaric to kill any living thing if your not going to use it to stay alive by eating it.

But if your locking someone up for all there live then that to me is even moor cruel then killing them. I mean if I didn't like an animal say a dog cos he bight some one. I would not be cruel to that dog cos he did that, I would simply have the dog put down (btw only if the dog was a nasty one and didn't do it cos he was provoked lol I love my dog :)) If its going to cost that much I would suggest that the system is wrong. There for I change my mined lol and say keep the basted alive. ok He may even tern out to be innocent as well. Technology is always getting better and we have had ppl released after years of being in jail coz of DNA that we can do now that we could not years ago. But I still say that if we have to keep any person in jail for a life time then we dont just fail them but hower selves as well regardless of how horrid a crime they have done. See I believe that if some one, anyone hurts another human being its cos there hurting in some way and are in need of help as well.

Interesting debate josh :)
 
bluey said:
3.18 million dollars, MAN that just crazy,,, I mean like OMG!!! But a bullet cost like 1$ at most lol ok I can imagine all the costs so ok me wrong lol

I agree with you tho about being locked up for me that would be a fate weirs the death.

To me its barbaric to kill any living thing if your not going to use it to stay alive by eating it.

But if your locking someone up for all there live then that to me is even moor cruel then killing them. I mean if I didn't like an animal say a dog cos he bight some one. I would not be cruel to that dog cos he did that, I would simply have the dog put down (btw only if the dog was a nasty one and didn't do it cos he was provoked lol I love my dog :)) If its going to cost that much I would suggest that the system is wrong. There for I change my mined lol and say keep the basted alive. ok He may even tern out to be innocent as well. Technology is always getting better and we have had ppl released after years of being in jail coz of DNA that we can do now that we could not years ago. But I still say that if we have to keep any person in jail for a life time then we dont just fail them but hower selves as well regardless of how horrid a crime they have done. See I believe that if some one, anyone hurts another human being its cos there hurting in some way and are in need of help as well.

Interesting debate josh :)

You have some really good points it does maybe you wonder if someone has to spend their life in jail would that be considered too cruel I mean like have to spend their life in jail in seperation because I really don't like the thought of someone that has done a horrible crime being with everyone else mainly because I do think are jails and prisons are too soft.

You raise the great point also about putting someone to death is permenant while a life senentance can be reversed if person is innocent. I was reading and through 1902 to 1970 that it has been proven 26 innocent people were put to death. Now many say that isn't that many but it does worry me a bit I mean how you would feel if someone close to you was pretty much murdered by the goverment.

Now where I have a tough time with not putting someone to death is say you have someone who raped and killed a young child or multiple children and has no remourse or even is proud of what they did. It is really hard for me to say they shouldn't be put to death I mean hell they should probaly be stoned to death. But then I want to think of my self as a civalized person and want justice not revenge.


Oh and hey bluey just explain some of the costs of why death sententance is so much more because I at first wondered too. It starts with their is a lot more in trial costs due to the many appeals and more work that has to be done regarding a death sentenace also there are extra costs of keeping someone on death row and also an imate on death row has many extra medical costs such as doctors and psychotherapists. Kind of funny that an immate must be healthy to die.
 
I think it's worse to let someone rot away than to kill them. So, on the one hand the death penalty is more humane, because it causes less suffering. On the other hand, with the life sentence there is a possibility that a falsely convicted person might be released because of new evidence.
 
I want to say that i believe in an eye for an eye. In other words a murderer should be murdered, a rapist should be raped........but when it comes to crimes against children, i really feel that an eye for an eye just isn't enough. I also think that the penalties against those people are too lean. a man who rapes his 3-year old daughter might get 3-5 years in prison, if he got caught. then he'll be released on parole and have to register as a "sex offender". that just means they know where to find him if he rapes another child and gets caught. I like josh's idea about stoning those people to death. I know i want to beat the daylights out of anyone who treats a child poorly, that just makes my head spin thinking about it.
I think the victims and their families should be the ones to judge the fate of their attackers. I'm sure people would come up with some pretty creative ideas.
to answer your question josh......I don't believe in genocide, but i support the death penalty for anyone who commits an all around, truely unforgivable crime. good luck in your ethics class.
 
Yep, let's bring up tongue-ripping, oil-boiling and spine-stretching also. :) And of course, good old burning on the stake.
 
Fizhik said:
I want to say that i believe in an eye for an eye.

But am sure you have also heard of the saying two wrongs don't make a right ;)


Josh said:
Now where I have a tough time with not putting someone to death is say you have someone who raped and killed a young child or multiple children and has no remourse or even is proud of what they did. It is really hard for me to say they shouldn't be put to death I mean hell they should probaly be stoned to death. But then I want to think of my self as a civalized person and want justice not revenge.

Fizhik agrees with you as am sure many would. But if some one has done crimes like that then don't you think that makes them ill. They need help.

OK they may not show any remorse for what they have done. But in years to come they may. They may even become someone that dedicates there life to helping others cos of what they did. A bid to try and make up for all the evil stuff they did. You/this has changed my mined on the death penalty. I now believe that they should be keeped alive.

Josh said:
Oh and hey bluey just explain some of the costs of why death sententance is so much more because I at first wondered too. It starts with their is a lot more in trial costs due to the many appeals and more work that has to be done regarding a death sentenace also there are extra costs of keeping someone on death row and also an imate on death row has many extra medical costs such as doctors and psychotherapists. Kind of funny that an immate must be healthy to die.

MY reasons for kipping them alive are

1 For the above reasons, To expensive and the money we save by keeping them alive can be spent on other things like medical care.

2 They may become some one that helps in a bigger way then we could ever imagine, That kinder stuff dose happen.

3 No mater how much evidents there is, There is always that slim chance that there Innocent.

4 We are not god and should not play god

5 If we kill this person where admitting that we are no better and have failed to rehabilitate.

OH and yea I to think its stupidly funny that they have to be healthy to
die lol that shows how crack pot and illogical this world is
 
mimizu said:
Yep, let's bring up tongue-ripping, oil-boiling and spine-stretching also. :) And of course, good old burning on the stake.

Wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of you :p

I wouldn't mined a bit of spine-stretching tho, I think that would help me lol
 
I was being sarcastic. I don't like it when people advocate overly cruel punishments for murderers and rapists. It makes me think "why are YOU so bloodthirsty?" Josh and Fizhik were actually advocating stoning here. #_#
 
I see your point mimizu and I agree that if your going to kill any living thing then you should do that as pain free and as quickly as possible.

I think all that Josh and Fizhik where saying is that you/me may think different about it if it was one of hower loved ones. Like josh says I to would hope that I would wont Justis and not revenge but you never can tell what you would feel if your 2 year old little girl was raped and murdered.
 
bluey said:
Fizhik said:
I want to say that i believe in an eye for an eye.

But am sure you have also heard of the saying two wrongs don't make a right ;)


Josh said:
Now where I have a tough time with not putting someone to death is say you have someone who raped and killed a young child or multiple children and has no remourse or even is proud of what they did. It is really hard for me to say they shouldn't be put to death I mean hell they should probaly be stoned to death. But then I want to think of my self as a civalized person and want justice not revenge.

Fizhik agrees with you as am sure many would. But if some one has done crimes like that then don't you think that makes them ill. They need help.

OK they may not show any remorse for what they have done. But in years to come they may. They may even become someone that dedicates there life to helping others cos of what they did. A bid to try and make up for all the evil stuff they did. You/this has changed my mined on the death penalty. I now believe that they should be keeped alive.

Josh said:
Oh and hey bluey just explain some of the costs of why death sententance is so much more because I at first wondered too. It starts with their is a lot more in trial costs due to the many appeals and more work that has to be done regarding a death sentenace also there are extra costs of keeping someone on death row and also an imate on death row has many extra medical costs such as doctors and psychotherapists. Kind of funny that an immate must be healthy to die.

This is certainly an emotional issue. Like any emotional issue, things can "get said", inadvertantly even.

MY reasons for kipping them alive are

1 For the above reasons, To expensive and the money we save by keeping them alive can be spent on other things like medical care.

I agree, economics might should play a role. not revenge.

2 They may become some one that helps in a bigger way then we could ever imagine, That kinder stuff dose happen.

true...but which is better? dealing in hypotheticals or today's reality? There's also some sight chance of him/her getting out and doing it again.

3 No mater how much evidents there is, There is always that slim chance that there Innocent.

True. But still, but all decisions are based on chance (or odds, if you will). Every decision we make today will be based on an odd. All that's not odds are facts. and facts can be contridictory. that no reason not to make a decison.

4 We are not god and should not play god

and you're not? by advocating this position?

5 If we kill this person where admitting that we are no better and have failed to rehabilitate.

No one has said that supports the death penalty that they necessarily believe they are better people, than the one's being punished. We're talking about good and bad behavior, not good and bad people. separate them.

OH and yea I to think its stupidly funny that they have to be healthy to
die lol that shows how crack pot and illogical this world is

that is a kinda strange

bluey, I hope, that you know it's not you I'm picking on you. (I do not know you well enough to not like you, yet ;-/ , it's your viewpoints that I'm attempting to address. And, we are ALL entitled to our viewpoints., I don't even want to say you are wrong . Sometimes it seems I can't even get a clear handle on if this is even a "right or wrong" debate. It seems more like a debate based on values, and personal philosophies of life. I try to think what works, doesn't work, instead of right or wrong, on philosophical topics. (though, admittedly, I can get sidetracked from my intentions. And, sometimes, my intentions become not so humble.

I will readily admit, that, were it my child, were it my brother, on death row? I'd be against the death penalty, more than likely. I like to believe that does not make me a hypocrite. I believe it makes me somewhat inconsistant, when a context changes. I see a difference. Someone once said..."The only truely consistant people...are dead people." (I think that's probably pretty true).

I still can't get away from believing...It's not a revenge thing (or at least it shouldn't be), for a meditating murderer to know that he faces the same punishment, if caught. It seems just.
 
Oh don't worry I don't feel your picking me out :) You make some very veiled points.

All am trying to say is that I think if where going to keep them alive cos of the economics of it then we have a responsibility to this ppl and not just to there victims. After all they must of been mix up in the heard somewhere along the line for them to have done such crimes that they are put on deaf row and we wish them dead.

And any discussion on philosophies of life has to be from a personal view I think??? maybe!

Mainly I just fine this discussion an interesting thing to discuss.
 
Josh said:
bluey said:
3.18 million dollars, MAN that just crazy,,, I mean like OMG!!! But a bullet cost like 1$ at most lol ok I can imagine all the costs so ok me wrong lol

I agree with you tho about being locked up for me that would be a fate weirs the death.

To me its barbaric to kill any living thing if your not going to use it to stay alive by eating it.

But if your locking someone up for all there live then that to me is even moor cruel then killing them. I mean if I didn't like an animal say a dog cos he bight some one. I would not be cruel to that dog cos he did that, I would simply have the dog put down (btw only if the dog was a nasty one and didn't do it cos he was provoked lol I love my dog :)) If its going to cost that much I would suggest that the system is wrong. There for I change my mined lol and say keep the basted alive. ok He may even tern out to be innocent as well. Technology is always getting better and we have had ppl released after years of being in jail coz of DNA that we can do now that we could not years ago. But I still say that if we have to keep any person in jail for a life time then we dont just fail them but hower selves as well regardless of how horrid a crime they have done. See I believe that if some one, anyone hurts another human being its cos there hurting in some way and are in need of help as well.

Interesting debate josh :)

You have some really good points it does maybe you wonder if someone has to spend their life in jail would that be considered too cruel I mean like have to spend their life in jail in seperation because I really don't like the thought of someone that has done a horrible crime being with everyone else mainly because I do think are jails and prisons are too soft.

You raise the great point also about putting someone to death is permenant while a life senentance can be reversed if person is innocent. I was reading and through 1902 to 1970 that it has been proven 26 innocent people were put to death. Now many say that isn't that many but it does worry me a bit I mean how you would feel if someone close to you was pretty much murdered by the goverment.

Now where I have a tough time with not putting someone to death is say you have someone who raped and killed a young child or multiple children and has no remourse or even is proud of what they did. It is really hard for me to say they shouldn't be put to death I mean hell they should probaly be stoned to death. But then I want to think of my self as a civalized person and want justice not revenge.


Oh and hey bluey just explain some of the costs of why death sententance is so much more because I at first wondered too. It starts with their is a lot more in trial costs due to the many appeals and more work that has to be done regarding a death sentenace also there are extra costs of keeping someone on death row and also an imate on death row has many extra medical costs such as doctors and psychotherapists. Kind of funny that an immate must be healthy to die.

Hey lots of great replies everyone something I need to clear up though I do not beleive we should stone people now what I said is for the worst of the worst the thought does cross my mind but being a civilized person I would never advocate something like that
 
mimizu said:
I was being sarcastic. I don't like it when people advocate overly cruel punishments for murderers and rapists. It makes me think "why are YOU so bloodthirsty?" Josh and Fizhik were actually advocating stoning here. #_#


You know mimizu..normal people would feel adverse to cruelty of any kind. Josh and Fizhik mentioned stoning..and you.. being a normal caring person (as I am sure Josh and Fizhik are) react in a normal way. But..for just a moment.. take a second to think about the little girl in Florida that was abducted out of her warm little bed...kept locked in a closet for days...as the sex maniac abused her over and over again. Then.. within several feet of her own home..he eventually buried her alive. Now..forgive me.. but somehow - stoning - seems almost compassionate to what that little soul suffered through.

For someone like that.. I could think of a lot worse things to do to him. And believe me - I am not bloodthirsty. However.. I am unforgiving when it comes to human animals torturing such defenseless babies. I hold no pity for such beasts..stoning..hanging...shooting..they should suffer. And no.. I don't care if they do feel remorse..because I believe the only true remorse they feel..is that they were caught.
 
But what if it's an innocent person being stoned to death? You don't concern yourself with that. You prefer to enjoy the thought of punishing those who deserve it, and to forget about the innocent ones..

It's weighing two values against each other... punishing evil vs protecting innocence. The desire to punish evil wins. This is why so much cruelty exists. Because someone is always "evil" for someone else.

It will never stop because some humans will always be "non-humans" for other humans. Sadly, not only child rapists are considered non-human. The things that can make someone a non-human vary greatly, and once you are a non-human you don't deserve compassion anymore.

For most people on this planet, I am a non-human because I have low social status. I'm on the bottom of the ladder. If I lived in some medieval village, they would stone me just for the sake of it, because they wanted to feel the power to take away someone else's life.
 
Oh this is getting intresting now.

My first thoughts when someone does something evil and horrible is that they should suffer but in wanting to be the better person or better society we can't react like that if we do evil and horrible things to someone even if they did something like that first that is revenge not justice and like I have said there is a major difference.
 

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