Loneliness: Values versus Desire

Hey all, hope you had a good Christmas (if you celebrate it of course! )

Haven't seen this come up, despite what an interesting and complicated topic it seems to be, at least in my mind. I'm sure other people must feel it too.

I figured I'd start a thread to get some particularly weird and potent emotions out of my system, I apologise if it seems disorganised, rehashed content-wise or rambly. This might be a long one

I think I put my finger on exactly why I feel so **** rough when it comes to romance for so long. I've had it for a while...it's just different to your "usual" romantic woe I guess. And it's horrible!

It gnaws at me relentlessly whenever someone is being flirty with me and I seem to hit an invisible wall of my own restraint. It bites away when I'm sat around thinking about what I want from my personal life too.

It's a crap analogy, but guess the best I can describe it is feeling like you're dying of thirst next to an oasis, but you cannot bring yourself to drink because you feel like the fresh, cool water is poisonous.

When I think about it, there are two grand experiences I'd like with a girl. I've mentioned them in the past, but to speak rather candidly:

- I'd like to kiss and cuddle a girl
- I'd like to make love to a girl

The weight is definitely on the former over the latter, but I feel pretty intense about both. I feel almost ashamed to admit that, which is part of my problem I guess, given it's a human trait :rolleyes2:

I've always considered myself a moral person. It probably came across in my older threads that I'm a bit strict/stuffy when it comes to justice, honesty, that kind of thing. I've also got a strong sense of duty, to myself and others.

The end result is that I have this enormous inner moral conflict between my desires as a guy and what I believe is "right" as a human being.

Unfortunately it seems to be a situation I just cannot resolve at all; I've been trying for so long to rationalise my way past it, but I can't do it.

There are so many things in my life that I feel like I've sacrificed to put what is "right" in my view first, I can't even list them. I feel this deep need to go out of my way to make sure the "right" thing gets done, even if it means personal discomfort or leaving my personal wants at the door.

Never has this been more apparent than the romantic situation. I don't know if it's my low self-esteem that makes for a toxic combo (I never really feel "good enough" for any girl I like), but every single time someone shows interest in me, I can feel myself backing off without even actively doing it.

Frustration!

I want so much to just sweep a girl away when she flirts with me, ask her out, flirt back, be a little bit risque and exciting and open up my personality. I can't express how much I'd like to respond like that. I even know how to do it!

I just can't release some kind of internal lock that halts all that and forcibly keeps me at a "safe" emotional distance.

I think one reason I do it is because I have this paranoid fear of making a girl unhappy. Lost Drifter pointed out how negative and irrational this was to me in my "Phys. Flirting" thread and it was an excellent comment.

I hate to cause people discomfort if it's strictly unneccessary, to the degree that I even avoid being part of their lives if it minimises any possible negative impact.

So I just observe things happen and stay out of all that stuff, permanently sacrificing my own happiness to avoid ever crashing someone's emotions. How stupid does that sound? I can't seem to change it, though. I'm not sure I even want to change it :\

So the contradictions come straight under what I want:

- I don't want to hurt a girl
- I don't want to cause unneccessary grievance in someone's life
- I get unusually uncomfortable with the thought of physical intimacy, greatly dislike the idea of casual sex, yet at the same time I'm absolutely dying for hugs and kisses -.-

I...urgh. Feel like I'm slowly uncovering some kind of universal truth about myself. Like a regime I've conditioned myself into all my life. I'm not sure if it's bad or good, I don't even know what I want, just that it's an important part of me.

It's everything good about me and also everything that makes me unhappy and ultimately unloved.

I guess overall I'm just feeling like a huge bag of mismatched jigsaw pieces right now when it comes to my ideas of intimacy, morality and romance. What I've typed probably makes me sound nuts.

It's late after all, and I always get very thoughtful and dark-visioned when the night draws in, not a good collection of states! I'm sure in the morning I'll wonder what I was wittering on about.

I also hope this wasn't too depressing to read, it was certainly a long ramble. Respect to anyone who reads this far

For the record, I'm actually feeling pretty happy with everything else in my life right now, which makes it all the more ironic that I'm having such deep and bleak peaks into this apparent inner void o_0

I used to feel somewhat similar. I don't know you or your life story, but possible reasons for you feeling this way could be (and you pointed out many of them):

1) Fear of rejection and lack of confidence, you want to save face and always stay within your current comfort zone
2) Religion
3) Media, Disney...etc. This stuff brainwashes people that intimacy and dating should be like a fairy tale, and
4 ) (for lack of better words) This big deal that revolves around first kiss/girlfriend/sex/whatever.

As for not wanting to hurt girls emotionally, thats understandable. But unlikely. Anytime two people get in a relationship its always possible.

I (think I) understand what your saying, but its difficult to really explain or give a solution to. My solution was simple. Stop thinking so ******* much. How did I stop thinking so much? Well I did a range of things from bungee jumping to asking to girls I hardly knew to lunch. Often times I thought the consequences of taking a course of action could be bad, so I avoided that action. But really for the most part the consequences were non existent or minimal and all in my head.

Again, I think I understand what you're saying but its difficult to explain coherently. Hopefully this helps, but I'm sure its stuff you already knew.

Dude.....
Most chicks are gonna want you to make out with them,
Do foreplay, and then steal your fucken left arn
Until your arm falls asleep after sex or making love..
What you wanna do is get her off sexually..
Such as stimulating clit and G SPOT.
every woman G spot is located different.
So your going to have to commumicate and ask her.

Be an adult about it...Reserch. read books or
watch videos on women's sexuality.

BTW..
do you watch porn?
You seem to be all caught up in cuddling
And the word lovemaking.
You seem to have sometype of guilt or
Keep talking this point.

Yes sometimes a woman all want
You to straight up fucl her brains out..
But for the most part they want you to
Make out with them first and then cuddle after.
Your not wanting to do what is natrual to begin with.

Geeez...i make out with my fiance im public
Or hold her hands every where we go.

Please the woman..dude.
Shell love you for it.

I cuddle with my fiance every night.
Its natral for us. Making love, fuckimg
In different positions or sometime
just making out without inter corse
Is natral for us. Sex is natural for us.

But j please her too. Get her off lots.
Get her to have multiple orgasims in
Different ways....she loves sex....
Oh geese... i mean make love to me.

TSM,

As someone on this forum mentioned and I thought may be valuable to you: you have to analyze what are /your/ ethics. I think that you have contradictory values, deep-seated ones, and they are bothering you. Until you reconcile them, they will continue to bother you.

Shes a nympho...
Were sexualiy very active.
But shes also a woman.
Lots and lots of love and romamce.

---

Where you raise by a single mother
Or your grandmother?
Do you have sisters or are you
The only boy?

Was their infidelity betweem your
Parents?

Or did your mother flirt with men.

Or was your father a flirt with
Women and your mother was hurted?

Or did your parents shows anytpye
Of physical effortions for one another...
Lack there off.

Who was your childhood hero
Or role model?

All these think could had colours
your perceptions about sex....
The guilt you carry.

---

It might a be benefit to you to do an inventory
Of your childhood to help you un lock your barriers
Or deep rooted beleif about sex and women

---

You dont have low self esteem.
You just think you do.
Its all in your head or beliefs.

Every one bleeds just like you
Abd i....
Were all just humans.
No more, no less.
The truth....

---

The pope isnt bullrct proof..
He rides in bullet proof wagon.
Hes just another man.
If there is a god...
God would love you no more nor no less.

will read more

TheSolitaryMan:
I understand where you are coming from. I am very picky so in the few cases I have been asked out, I usually turn them down because I don't want to hurt them in the end. Most guys don't care about a woman's feelings so they will use them for whatever purpose and then leave them once things go down hill. I can't do that so I protect women by keeping them away.
Well that is most of my life. In recent years I've been changing but now there are a lack of women available and the women that are single don't want to have to talk or be physically near the guy they are dating. (I can't figure that one out.) The women I fit with are already married... which could be why I get married women trying to have affairs with me.
I would love to know what it is like to be physically next to someone who also wants to be next to me but it's such an alien idea that I don't know what to do. The only person I have been with was not into physical touch. We never could even figure out how kissing worked. Kissing someone is just such a weird concept.

I am also very moral (to an extent) which is my there aren't any women (other than the one who I was with who wasn't into dating) who I am compatible with. For me to date, I have to change my morals so much that I know I will end up hurting someone.

passage said:

I used to feel somewhat similar. I don't know you or your life story, but possible reasons for you feeling this way could be (and you pointed out many of them):

1) Fear of rejection and lack of confidence, you want to save face and always stay within your current comfort zone
2) Religion
3) Media, Disney...etc. This stuff brainwashes people that intimacy and dating should be like a fairy tale, and
4 ) (for lack of better words) This big deal that revolves around first kiss/girlfriend/sex/whatever.

As for not wanting to hurt girls emotionally, thats understandable. But unlikely. Anytime two people get in a relationship its always possible.

...

My solution was simple. Stop thinking so ******* much. How did I stop thinking so much? Well I did a range of things from bungee jumping to asking girls I hardly knew to lunch. Often times I thought the consequences of taking a course of action could be bad, so I avoided that action. But really for the most part the consequences were non existent or minimal and all in my head.

Again, I think I understand what you're saying but its difficult to explain coherently. Hopefully this helps, but I'm sure its stuff you already knew.

Click to expand...

1 & 4 are definitely aspects of it.

I don't like the idea of being rejected, but it's more like I feel I will be even if a girl seems really flirtatious, so I don't even try. It all seems like a foregone conclusion sometimes, I think it's because my self esteem is pretty much non-existent.

People have been complimenting me quite frequently now that I'm starting to shape up physically, which is nice and I try to realise that there must be some truth there. Unfortunately I have real trouble taking those kinds of positive things seriously - I'm convinced otherwise by myself.

I don't buy into the cheesy "movie" ideas of romance, but I have my own ideas based on how I interact with girls. I guess what I mean is that I've had success being kind and "myself" with women, and the sparks I got from them were classically romantic in nature.

That gives me hope that perhaps some kind of relationship on a higher level than just "screwing random people" must be physically possible. I just can't seem to actually attain it

I'd love to stop thinking so much, unfortunately I can't! It sounds so stupid.

A friend of mine, female, who I have talked to for years about this, recently said to me something like "TSM, you need to go out there and ask a girl you find attractive out. Don't worry about how it will work out or even who she is, just ask someone out, have fun, gain experience."

I think she's right, but I can't actually do it! Even if a girl seems to like me, it's not do-able. I get all the usual nerves, then like this invisible barrier of my own creation that tells me not to pursue things. So lame, but there we have it.

Nolife Princess said:

I did read this.

I just do not have a response.. it is easy to say do this or that... or even say what 'I' would do. but the bottom line is, at the end of the day. its all about you. follow your heart.
*hugs&kiss* for you hun.

Click to expand...

Thanks Princess

Ah, what can I say? I've tried to follow my heart twice - once it was with the most mixed up girl I've ever met, so I ended up hurting and getting nowhere simultaneously.

The second time still doesn't make sense. I didn't get rejected, but I didn't get accepted...case closed :\

So I can't say I trust my heart a whole lot. I don't trust my brain either, with the amount of rationalising and worrying it does.

Lonesome Crow said:

So your going to have to commumicate and ask her.

...

Be an adult about it...Reserch. read books or
watch videos on women's sexuality.

...

You seem to be all caught up in cuddling
And the word lovemaking.
You seem to have sometype of guilt or
Keep talking this point.

...

Please the woman..dude.
Shell love you for it.

Click to expand...

LC, I'm a little confused. If I actually had a girl to please, I doubt I'd be making the rather long and contradictory posts I do!

I prefer to use the term "make love", especially in polite conversation such as on the boards. I don't know, it just feels more in line with what I believe sex to be about.

Don't be mislead by the term though, it's not like I'm not willing to make a girl physically happy in a whole bunch of different ways. I actually think I could do that pretty well, given the ridiculous amount of time I spend wishing I for once had the chance to do just that

Yeah, I do feel guilt. I've always gained satisfaction through my life through helping people. I seem to have developed some kind of psychological reward system for helping people out.

It's like I feel bad if someone rewards me for doing a good deed or being nice, so I guess I feel bad with the idea of a girl being sexually attracted to me, 'cos it's like I'm "taking" something off her for just being myself? That's one big area where my discomfort begins.

I just kind of think "I'm nice to everyone. Why should I get affection as a reward for being like that to one particular person?"

That probably sounds weird and messed up, but that's how deep my own self-doubt goes. I sort of like being nice to people, then vanishing like a caped crusader when they try to "pay" me for it, because I feel wrong with any sort of recognition >_<

IgnoredOne said:

TSM,

As someone on this forum mentioned and I thought may be valuable to you: you have to analyze what are /your/ ethics. I think that you have contradictory values, deep-seated ones, and they are bothering you. Until you reconcile them, they will continue to bother you.

Click to expand...

Thanks IO. Completely 100% correct of course! It's becoming obvious that I have to sort this out, I just...have no clue how to do that at all. I've been trying for months to work through it now.

A unique problem really, nothing in my life has ever been so opaque and seemingly unsolvable.

I'm thinking that there needs to be a breakthrough soon, because I'd say these feelings cause me about 95% of the emotional suffering I seem to go through these days.

Such a large and persistent distraction from my work and my own happiness is really not proving helpful to my life.

blackdot said:

For me to date, I have to change my morals so much that I know I will end up hurting someone.

Click to expand...

This last sentence struck a note with me in particular blackdot. Exactly how I feel.

I think one reason that I kind of dislike guys that frequently sleep around lots with different girls (as I mentioned back in a thread I made a while ago) is that I feel they are playing by rules that I myself would feel very bad about - yet they seem a lot more relaxed and get more than I ever expect from girls on a regular basis!

By contrast, it's like I'm surrounded by girls that I could have kissing me in a flash if it wasn't for all this internal conflict I have, but because I don't feel right about doing what these other guys do all the time I have to bear the weight of being absolutely isolated instead :\

The only thing I can see solving this is a beautiful, intelligent, sweet, kind, humourous girl appearing suddenly, finding me attractive and giving me a really nice kiss. And the likelihood of that happening anytime soon is about six million to one, judging by my experiences so far!

Sigh. Sorry, I don't mean to sound down. I appreciate the replies, I'm just at a loss at what I can do here. Nothing seems viable.

Even now there are two girls I like, both of whom seem interested in me, yet I cannot do anything at all in response. I'm just waiting while they fade away...

Once upon a time someone told me
I was a perfectionist....

I didn't know what hell she was refering to.
My life was far from perfect.

What she ment was ......
I didnt engaged in certain area of my life u
Unless everything was perfect or I was less
Than perfect.
In other words....i didnt get honeysuckle done.
All the honeysuckle gose spinning round and round
In my head...while i was burning daylight
And i complish..nothing or took any actions.
Oh...i thought i was so much better and a knight
In shinning armour too, maling sure rvery one
Is happy. IM SUCH A FUCKEN HERO and SAINT.

BTW....its basic cOdepency behavior, beliefs and
Traits...

You might try reading some codependency literatures.

Every gal have her needs.
Stop being such a selfish
Stuck up snot.

I hope that helps you on your
Guilt trips...

Please dont take it as an attack.

Well whats clear from your posts is that you (consciously or unconsciously) think that women don't like sex as much as the average (horny) man. They do (if not more cause its still taboo for them). You also seem to think that most men don't like cuddling/intimacy. They do.

Also, its not necessarily true that guys who sleep around a lot hurt girls. I'm sure some do, but not all. Monogamous relationships tend to be little more than a power struggle between the two parties.

That relates to my second point. You think that women are weak (and maybe stupid). If a woman chooses to take a risk by getting into a relationship, thats her choice, and she should be able to deal with any emotional consequences just as well as a man. If a woman (or man) gets into a relationship knowing it won't turn out well (or will feel used...etc), then they're either dumb (yes, I said dumb), or they just don't have self esteem. My point here is that people sleep around (for more reasons than this, but heres some) because they're dumb (easily persuaded), or have low self esteem (seek constant validation) or becuase they simply like having sex with different people. These aren't mutually exclusive.

You're really going to have to either stop thinking so much, or assess your values and where you get your values from. For the latter, ask yourself some questions such as, "Would your ideal woman be a virgin? If yes, why?" "Does losing your virginity matter to you? If yes why?" Questions like this, I had pondered and found out I couldn't come up with good reasons. For me, I deduced that these were bullshit values that had been brainwashed into me when I was young. But, you have to assess your own morality and where it comes from.

As for you getting into physical shape, thats great. From my own experience that was absolute key to me waking up out of a slumber of depression. It's a great start to increase your confidence, but make sure you don't rely on it too much.

Finally, maybe this doesnt flow well, or answer your question, or I repeated many things, or went off on tangents. But I tried to help

PS. (thanks to another thread) You have to stop putting women on a pedestal.

passage said:

Well whats clear from your posts is that you (consciously or unconsciously) think that women don't like sex as much as the average (horny) man. They do (if not more cause its still taboo for them). You also seem to think that most men don't like cuddling/intimacy. They do.

Also, its not necessarily true that guys who sleep around a lot hurt girls. I'm sure some do, but not all. Monogamous relationships tend to be little more than a power struggle between the two parties.

That relates to my second point. You think that women are weak (and maybe stupid). If a woman chooses to take a risk by getting into a relationship, thats her choice, and she should be able to deal with any emotional consequences just as well as a man. If a woman (or man) gets into a relationship knowing it won't turn out well (or will feel used...etc), then they're either dumb (yes, I said dumb), or they just don't have self esteem. My point here is that people sleep around (for more reasons than this, but heres some) because they're dumb (easily persuaded), or have low self esteem (seek constant validation) or becuase they simply like having sex with different people. These aren't mutually exclusive.

You're really going to have to either stop thinking so much, or assess your values and where you get your values from. For the latter, ask yourself some questions such as, "Would your ideal woman be a virgin? If yes, why?" "Does losing your virginity matter to you? If yes why?" Questions like this, I had pondered and found out I couldn't come up with good reasons. For me, I deduced that these were bullshit values that had been brainwashed into me when I was young. But, you have to assess your own morality and where it comes from.

As for you getting into physical shape, thats great. From my own experience that was absolute key to me waking up out of a slumber of depression. It's a great start to increase your confidence, but make sure you don't rely on it too much.

Finally, maybe this doesnt flow well, or answer your question, or I repeated many things, or went off on tangents. But I tried to help

PS. (thanks to another thread) You have to stop putting women on a pedestal.

Click to expand...

I'm sure guys who sleep around a lot don't neccessarily hurt girls. They at least fill a woman's sexual desire, which is a positive thing I suppose.

My point was more that I feel slightly envious they are able to do that confidently and apparently feel satisfied with no attacks of conscience. I have exactly the same desires, if not to a greater degree, but I would feel outright wrong doing that.

Which kind of sucks. I'm happy I have those standards, sad that it means I'm not going to kiss anyone until I'm about 35! :\

Oh, I don't think women are weak or stupid! Quite the opposite. I get on better with girls than guys in general actually.

It's just I feel that as a decent "man" I should not abuse women or emotionally manipulate them for sex. If I'm going to ask a girl out, I consider it my imperative that started the relationship, so it is on my shoulders to quite an extent where it ends up.

If it ends with the girl extremely upset, I'd feel bad for initiating such a relation in the first place.

I'm all for sexual equality, I just find it sadly amusing that it exists less in this day and age than it did in the '50s! People treat the other gender as throwaway sex objects more than ever nowadays, which is pretty **** ironic.

I'm sure other guys like cuddling too, passage. Unfortunately, right now I am surrounded by intelligent and apparently "normal" guys who spend most of their time boasting about how much sex they're having. I don't hear them talking about how great their first kiss was, or how much they like snuggling with girls, or even if they like their past or current girlfriends. It's just the sex.

That made a negative impression on me when it comes to that sort of attitude towards it all. I don't like that casual attitude towards such intimacy, it strikes me as crass and disrespectful. That's just my personal opinion.

I agree with the "pedestal" comment. I think the most paradoxical thing is that girls are interested in me for being the person I am, at the same time being that person means I never get anywhere with them. Strange, eh?

Your in a zone dude...

That comfortzone of being
An emotional tampon when
They want a shoulder to cry on
While they ***** moan and complain
About men or their BF...which
They can also choose their GF...
BUT U volunteered to play the role.

Im pretty sure you read plenty
Threads of guys justifying why
They always STAY IN THE FRIENDZONE..

However most guys like you
Are actually control freaks..

Youll try to control women you
Get involve with to take on a role
Of what you deem as the perfect
Picture....which is just an illusion
Or delusional...

---

Please don't take it as an attack.

Ive had plenty of plutonic relationship
And had a great fucken idea of what perfect intimate relationship should be or oughTo be

Lol...if I were "controlling" LC, I probably wouldn't have these issues

I'm about the least controlling guy you could meet. I don't expect anything from anyone really. I'm flattered when anyone shows me attention.

I guess it's impossible to explain what I'm like unless you actually meet me in person

Ah well. I'm sort of used to feeling depressed now. I can't see any way to change how I'm like as a person, I'm at least glad that people seem to like me for being the way I am

I think girlfriends and all those things of that nature just aren't meant for me. That's okay actually, I think I can live with that when it comes to it.

Thanks for the replies.

Well hopefully with time and experience you'll develop a moral code that allows you to see women without feeling guilt.

As for what guys say about sex. Don't ever take what guys says as fact, they almost always exaggerate the amount of sex they're having (women tend to do the opposite, and hide all the sex they're having) and understate all the intimate stuff they do.

As for this comment "I think the most paradoxical thing is that girls are interested in me for being the person I am, at the same time being that person means I never get anywhere with them. Strange, eh?" That, unfortunately, might just be validation seekers

I dont know, I don't think anyone can really help you but yourself. I used to have similar views, but within the last year or so they changed (based on observation, trial and error, and some deep thinking).

The best advice I have is go with the flow, enjoy womens company and be flirty, without thinking too much.

You sound like you have a "doormat" type of personality. Especially with lines like, "I don't expect anything from anyone really, I'm flattered when anyone shows me attention." You obviously would like intimacy right? So you do want that? It might sound a little shocking but women do like sex. Unless you make it obvious that you are interested in them then they won't think you are interested at all. And if you play doormat for them then they will have absolutely no reason to treat you any differently than they already do. If they get what they want out of you without you taking anything in return why would they want to change that? Sure you might be the person they want, but you never get anywhere with them because they already have you in the perfect spot.

Your friends that brag about having tons of sex? They probably aren't getting it as good or as often as they claim. But they are probably getting something. I'm not sure if you've said anywhere whether you are a virgin or not. But, how can you really know how satisfying or not satisfying certain kinds of sex can be without ever experiencing them.

[Edit- Value yourself more. Value your time and your energy. If you spend time and energy on someone, expect the same in return. Don't give anything for free. Make them work for it. Give them a challenge. If you are too easy they will get bored and throw you away. That's my problem a little bit too. It sucks because you really do wish you could just be yourself and tell people how much you care about them but it will almost always backfire. They will throw you back in and go after a more exciting catch.]

kamya said:

You sound like you have a "doormat" type of personality. Especially with lines like, "I don't expect anything from anyone really, I'm flattered when anyone shows me attention." You obviously would like intimacy right? So you do want that? It might sound a little shocking but women do like sex. Unless you make it obvious that you are interested in them then they won't think you are interested at all. And if you play doormat for them then they will have absolutely no reason to treat you any differently than they already do. If they get what they want out of you without you taking anything in return why would they want to change that? Sure you might be the person they want, but you never get anywhere with them because they already have you in the perfect spot.

Your friends that brag about having tons of sex? They probably aren't getting it as good or as often as they claim. But they are probably getting something. I'm not sure if you've said anywhere whether you are a virgin or not. But, how can you really know how satisfying or not satisfying certain kinds of sex can be without ever experiencing them.

[Edit- Value yourself more. Value your time and your energy. If you spend time and energy on someone, expect the same in return. Don't give anything for free. Make them work for it. Give them a challenge. If you are too easy they will get bored and throw you away. That's my problem a little bit too. It sucks because you really do wish you could just be yourself and tell people how much you care about them but it will almost always backfire. They will throw you back in and go after a more exciting catch.]

Click to expand...

I'm not so much plain ol' doormat as more like I don't really see myself as worth anything I guess. I didn't used to be like that, it's more in the last 2-3 years that attitude has stuck with me as bad as I have it now. I know I have some good traits, but in terms of romantic potential I can't really comprehend why anyone would want me.

Which is bizarre, since I do get attention from girls. I just don't respond to it for fear of causing offence/my own indecision and that kind of spirals into this cycle that makes me feel like a non-asset to others

Yeah, I'm a virgin and I haven't kissed or even snuggled with someone yet. I think that's probably a big chunk of the problem - not having any experience of that stuff makes me very, very shy when it comes to any physical commitment like that.

I don't know when girls want that kind of attention since I've never showed it before, so I'm always worried I'll upset them when flirting and so on, when they're probably enjoying that interaction

I understand not knowing what women are wanting. I've had women tell me I am a big flirt yet I have no idea what flirting is.
I have no idea how to tell if a female is flirting with me or not. For the most part I just try to avoid being around females as it just makes me feel worse about not having one to be around. Really counter productive but then again i know if I tell one that I like them they are going to cringe and start avoiding me instead. *laughs*

blackdot said:

I understand not knowing what women are wanting. I've had women tell me I am a big flirt yet I have no idea what flirting is.
I have no idea how to tell if a female is flirting with me or not. For the most part I just try to avoid being around females as it just makes me feel worse about not having one to be around. Really counter productive but then again i know if I tell one that I like them they are going to cringe and start avoiding me instead. *laughs*

Click to expand...

I find when girls are flirting they usually stare/laugh a lot, or perhaps "punch" (gently, to your chest/arms) you or stroke part of you. Sometimes I've noticed girls look sort of "casual", but "fake casual", like a poker face. Usually when they're doing something semi-rude when flirting. Not sure if that holds true all the time though of course, but I hope it offers some vague clues!

I find mixing with ladies comfortable and enjoyable, but at the same time I very much understand that feeling of missing a special one while in their company.

I'd like to think I'm reasonably decent at flirting on the rare occasion I do it, the big problem is knowing how far to take it for me. A few months back I was chatting to this girl on my course, had her laughing and grinning and one day she started quite overtly stroking my arm when we were talking.

It was really nice to get that sort of affection and I could sort of tell she was enjoying my company too. But then I started backing off, because the next stage (asking out or getting more flirty still) I have no real experience of and for some reason I tell myself the girl wouldn't like that

Plus I guess I fear the unknown. Urgh >_<