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Brodie

Well-known member
Joined
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Hello everyone. Before I even begin writing, I am going to ask that everyone read this letter, as it will have relevance in everything I have to state:

http://www.iamanatheist.com/correspondence/notable/notable-2006-08_favorite.html

Everything I have to say is going to be brutally honest and will probably offend some people, but they are my views and how I truly feel.


Ok, where to begin? Some people have told me that they enjoy my writing, and that they would enjoy having a discussion or debate with me. So here it is, my big debut.

Let me start by saying thank you if you took the time to read that letter I posted a link too. I greatly appreciate it if you did.

I am going to start out with a hypothetical situation to prove a point about logic and reasoning and the nature of things. Have you ever heard a person say that you can't prove a negative? Well, if you don't understand what that means, let me tell you a little story that I think will help clarify things:

If you were to go inside my Green 1997 Dodge Intrepid, and open up the glove compartment, inside would be a tiny, invisible, pink elephant named Floyd. Floyd is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. This means that he is everywhere at all times, is all powerful, and he sees everything. Now, you say to me, "You're full of crap! Elephants aren't pink, and they can't fit inside a glove compartment! Also, if he's invisible, how do you know he's pink?" I say that it is because he is all powerful, so he can do whatever he wants. You even stick your hands inside and wave them around. "See there's nothing in there!" I say that the reason you didn't touch him is because he moved after shrinking himself even smaller. You see the flaw? You can always prove within a certain margin of error the probability of whether or not something exists, but you can NEVER prove that something does NOT exist. It's an impossibility, and it's called "proving a negative," which is impossible.

Now, you might say, "Well, doesn't this argue for the case of the agnostic more than the case of atheist?"

I say to you no. This is called Pascal's Wager. Pascal states that if given two options, one of there being no god, and believing in him, and the other being that there is a god, and not believing in him, believing in god is far less risky, because, hey, if there's no god, then you didn't really lose anything, did you?

But there is one major flaw with Pascal's Wager. You know my pink elephant scenario? Well, you could apply that to literally ANYTHING you want. And there's nothing you can ever do to prove that the person is wrong. So if you are going to believe in god just to "be safe," which god are you going to pray too? There are an infinite number of choices, and you can't pray or worship them all. This is why being an agnostic is pointless. What's the point of believing in a supreme being that you have no proof of in the off chance that there is one? What if you aren't doing something he likes?

There are two types of atheists in the atheist community. Strong atheists, and weak atheists. Weak atheists are called weak because they have nothing to prove. They simply "don't believe" in anything. So they have no burden of proof. Strong atheists "believe there is no god." They base this off of the fact that there is no evidence for his existence, so until then, there's no point in believing in him. I go beyond strong atheists though, and I do not even consider myself an atheist. I take the middle ground:

I state that I am an atheist until given undeniable proof of a supreme being's existence. But until then, I have no reason to ever believe in a supreme being, because I have enough evidence as of now to show me that the probability of there being a supreme being is close to none. However, I also concede that I can never prove that there isn't a god, so I stand by that there is always the possibility of one existing, just that it's so low that it's probably not true.

Now that I am done with this part of my rant, you are all probably asking, "what does this have to do with low self-esteem and shyness? Well to be honest, it has plenty to do with it.

You see, I believe that being religious and relying on an all powerful supreme being to give your life meaning and to give you strength is lazy and a crutch. This gives people an excuse to be unethical and to lack morals, because they know that later on they can just be "forgiven" by their god. People should be more pragmatic than this. If you need a "God" to force you into being a good person with morals, by providing you with the fear of being punished, then there is something wrong with you. You shouldn't need some supreme being to "tell you" to be good. You should reach deep down inside yourself to find your inner strength, and everything about you should come from that.

Yourself is all you will ever have in life. By relying on some imaginary, man-made concept, you will only weaken yourself, and make yourself dependent.

People created religion as a means to CONTROL the population through fear. It makes you weak and dependent on something that doesn't exist, so that you can be brainwashed and easily controlled. Religion has been called the "opiate of the masses" and that's exactly what it is.

Reach inside yourself! Create yourself! Develop your OWN sense of self and discover your own strength! Create your OWN identity! Because that's all you ever truly have! YOUR actions determine where you end up at the end of the day, no one else's! Don't use religion as an excuse to be weak!

-Matthew Brodie
 
Brodie said:
Hello everyone. Before I even begin writing, I am going to ask that everyone read this letter, as it will have relevance in everything I have to state:

http://www.iamanatheist.com/correspondence/notable/notable-2006-08_favorite.html

Everything I have to say is going to be brutally honest and will probably offend some people, but they are my views and how I truly feel.


Ok, where to begin? Some people have told me that they enjoy my writing, and that they would enjoy having a discussion or debate with vme. So here it is, my big debut.

t me start by saying thank you if you took the time to read that letter I posted a link too. I greatly appreciate it if you did.

I am going to start out with a hypothetical situation to prove a point about logic and reasoning and the nature of things. Have you ever heard a person say that you can't prove a negative? Well, if you don't understand what that means, let me tell you a little story that I think will help clarify things:

If you were to go inside my Green 1997 Dodge Intrepid, and open up the glove compartment, inside would be a tiny, invisible, pink elephant named Floyd. Floyd is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. This means that he is everywhere at all times, is all powerful, and he sees everything. Now, you say to me, "You're full of crap! Elephants aren't pink, and they can't fit inside a glove compartment! Also, if he's invisible, how do you know he's pink?" I say that it is because he is all powerful, so he can do whatever he wants. You even stick your hands inside and wave them around. "See there's nothing in there!" I say that the reason you didn't touch him is because he moved after shrinking himself even smaller. You see the flaw? You can always prove within a certain margin of error the probability of whether or not something exists, but you can NEVER prove that something does NOT exist. It's an impossibility, and it's called "proving a negative," which is impossible.

Now, you might say, "Well, doesn't this argue for the case of the agnostic more than the case of atheist?"

I say to you no. This is called Pascal's Wager. Pascal states that if given two options, one of there being no god, and believing in him, and the other being that there is a god, and not believing in him, believing in god is far less risky, because, hey, if there's no god, then you didn't really lose anything, did you?

But there is one major flaw with Pascal's Wager. You know my pink elephant scenario? Well, you could apply that to literally ANYTHING you want. And there's nothing you can ever do to prove that the person is wrong. So if you are going to believe in god just to "be safe," which god are you going to pray too? There are an infinite number of choices, and you can't pray or worship them all. This is why being an agnostic is pointless. What's the point of believing in a supreme being that you have no proof of in the off chance that there is one? What if you aren't doing something he likes?

There are two types of atheists in the atheist community. Strong atheists, and weak atheists. Weak atheists are called weak because they have nothing to prove. They simply "don't believe" in anything. So they have no burden of proof. Strong atheists "believe there is no god." They base this off of the fact that there is no evidence for his existence, so until then, there's no point in believing in him. I go beyond strong atheists though, and I do not even consider myself an atheist. I take the middle ground:

I state that I am an atheist until given undeniable proof of a supreme being's existence. But until then, I have no reason to ever believe in a supreme being, because I have enough evidence as of now to show me that the probability of there being a supreme being is close to none. However, I also concede that I can never prove that there isn't a god, so I stand by that there is always the possibility of one existing, just that it's so low that it's probably not true.

Now that I am done with this part of my rant, you are all probably asking, "what does this have to do with low self-esteem and shyness? Well to be honest, it has plenty to do with it.

You see, I believe that being religious and relying on an all powerful supreme being to give your life meaning and to give you strength is lazy and a crutch. This gives people an excuse to be unethical and to lack morals, because they know that later on they can just be "forgiven" by their god. People should be more pragmatic than this. If you need a "God" to force you into being a good person with morals, by providing you with the fear of being punished, then there is something wrong with you. You shouldn't need some supreme being to "tell you" to be good. You should reach deep down inside yourself to find your inner strength, and everything about you should come from that.

Yourself is all you will ever have in life. By relying on some imaginary, man-made concept, you will only weaken yourself, and make yourself dependent.

People created religion as a means to CONTROL the population through fear. It makes you weak and dependent on something that doesn't exist, so that you can be brainwashed and easily controlled. Religion has been called the "opiate of the masses" and that's exactly what it is.

Reach inside yourself! Create yourself! Develop your OWN sense of self and discover your own strength! Create your OWN identity! Because that's all you ever truly have! YOUR actions determine where you end up at the end of the day, no one else's! Don't use religion as an excuse to be weak!

-Matthew Brodie


Brodie..while I appreciate some of your ideas to be true..I have to say your declarations are a little too broad for those indoctrinated (for generations) in their belief systems.

And please keep in mind..there are those who believe in the evidence of God..but not necessarily in religion. For those people..such as myself..religion and God are at odds..
 
I understand. This post was mostly just my way of getting my personal views out in the field for anyone that wanted to discuss them. I'd like to hear more about what you think if you have more time to.
 
when i was younger i was terrified of the thought that i wouldn't exist when i died,

now i'm not so sure

like when your really tired and you finally get to sleep and it's so nice, then you wke up and have to get up early again and go through the day again.

sometimes i don't want to wake up

just because i hate that feeling of being tired

and if i could just stay asleep forever
 
actually a few weeks ago i serieously thought about becoming atheist,

i just don't know,

just praying at night in my head is just a habit that i'm just afraid to stop doing
 
I read the article and your post.

Growing up I had one friend and one friend only, we grew up together, for the most part anyways because I didn't meet him until I was 5 or so.And every memory I have of being young has him somewhere in it. We were both going to be "aniologists":), which is what we called biologists back when we were in elementary school, times were good I had a happy childhood as far as school went and it was mainly because of him being there with me, and just being an all around good friend. This friendship continued past elementary school and into middle school which was worse than elementary but still bearable with a friend by my side. And then were going to go to high school, still looking to both become biologists, because we knew the right term by this point:)... And I've never really talked about it, I find it hard to even type it...Before we got to high school he died of some unknown health complication...Or at least I never figured out how he died, the cause didn't matter to me only the result.. I remember when my mom first told me he was dead, I just started "hyperventilating" is what they called it. I collapsed gasping for air on the floor and was shaking all over they had to carry me to my bed, where I passed in and out of being conscious for a while. I didn't eat anything for at least a week yet my body kept coming up with things to throw up.. At the funeral I had to be sedated, and when the preacher asked if anyone had any words to say everyone looked at me, yet I couldn't say anything, I just stood there staring at the coffin.. Let me tell you that the stages of death are utter bullshit, for the longest time I wanted to die too. I never was religious but when I got angry I just yelled at the sky. People told me it was alright he was in heaven now, a better place.. I became distant, cold, bitter, morbid, and obsessing over death and the concepts of afterlife and rebirth. Everyone tried to tell me it was alright and what I was going through was healthy for someone who lost their best friend. I read a lot of books telling me about the afterlife, I read every perspective from the house of dust to heaven. Everything about rebirth and past lives... I didn't conclude much from it all, I didn't know what to believe. Was there a God, if so why did he do this to me? I yelled a lot then, mostly at the sky, asking those very questions: where are you God? If you are there would you at least do something that proves your there, not just for me but for everyone to see that you exist? Where's this Armageddon I've heard so much about? It seems like a good time for an Armageddon to me... I never got any answers I thought there was a light above my bed that looked oddly like an angel, but then I found that an angel of light is the devil, so no I guess that wasn't really an answer. I didn't ask for much, I had one friend,I was happy! Why did you kill him? To understand what happens after this I guess you have to read the beginning of my other post.

I remember one of the last times I saw him we compared our schedules for our first semester, we would have had third period government together. I would have walked in that room and sat down next to him... and never met one of the most important people in my life...

I'm not saying there is a God or isn't a God or there is fate and destiny and all that, all I can say is that I live my life day to day and honestly don't know what to believe and no matter how long we debate we will never know, I've debated this with someone for months and it's a fruitless argument, Brodie even if you did prove that God didn't exist would you be happy or would you feel a little empty one the inside?
 
I would be happy because then the world would be able to leave this horrible limbo it's stuck in. Whenever the future is looking promising, ignorant theists step in to stomp on all of humanity's progress and set us back another 1000 years. I'm not even going to begin to act like I know all of the answers. I can't, that's impossible, nobody can. But I do know that I would like to know MORE. To me, the entire purpose of life is learning. Learning, learning, learning. Religion, for the most part, in my point of view, teaches ignorance and accepting things as they are, without leaving any room for growth or change. If there is one thing I know, it's that you can't know everything, and that the universe possesses infinite secrets to be found. To me, learning those secrets is the most fulfilling pleasure that there is in life, and the existence of a neglectful, unmerciful "God" is just a cork in the bottle stopping the flow of knowledge.
 
Brodie said:
I would be happy because then the world would be able to leave this horrible limbo it's stuck in. Whenever the future is looking promising, ignorant theists step in to stomp on all of humanity's progress and set us back another 1000 years. I'm not even going to begin to act like I know all of the answers. I can't, that's impossible, nobody can. But I do know that I would like to know MORE. To me, the entire purpose of life is learning. Learning, learning, learning. Religion, for the most part, in my point of view, teaches ignorance and accepting things as they are, without leaving any room for growth or change. If there is one thing I know, it's that you can't know everything, and that the universe possesses infinite secrets to be found. To me, learning those secrets is the most fulfilling pleasure that there is in life, and the existence of a neglectful, unmerciful "God" is just a cork in the bottle stopping the flow of knowledge.

I've been there trying to figure out those secrets, learning, learning, learning you can't be Dr. Faustus!! People have lost their lives to this by becoming obsessed with it all, good luck finding those secrets, but make sure you don't get to a point where you can't stop, don't let it destroy you..
 
NeverMore said:
Brodie said:
I would be happy because then the world would be able to leave this horrible limbo it's stuck in. Whenever the future is looking promising, ignorant theists step in to stomp on all of humanity's progress and set us back another 1000 years. I'm not even going to begin to act like I know all of the answers. I can't, that's impossible, nobody can. But I do know that I would like to know MORE. To me, the entire purpose of life is learning. Learning, learning, learning. Religion, for the most part, in my point of view, teaches ignorance and accepting things as they are, without leaving any room for growth or change. If there is one thing I know, it's that you can't know everything, and that the universe possesses infinite secrets to be found. To me, learning those secrets is the most fulfilling pleasure that there is in life, and the existence of a neglectful, unmerciful "God" is just a cork in the bottle stopping the flow of knowledge.

I've been there trying to figure out those secrets, learning, learning, learning you can't be Dr. Faustus!! People have lost their lives to this by becoming obsessed with it all, good luck finding those secrets, but make sure you don't get to a point where you can't stop, don't let it destroy you..



You and Brodie are starting to scare me..because I see myself in both of you from what you're saying. I didn't think there were others like me out there.
 
Wow, that was quite a letter...

Brodie said:
Now, you might say, "Well, doesn't this argue for the case of the agnostic more than the case of atheist?"

I say to you no. This is called Pascal's Wager. Pascal states that if given two options, one of there being no god, and believing in him, and the other being that there is a god, and not believing in him, believing in god is far less risky, because, hey, if there's no god, then you didn't really lose anything, did you?

But there is one major flaw with Pascal's Wager. You know my pink elephant scenario? Well, you could apply that to literally ANYTHING you want. And there's nothing you can ever do to prove that the person is wrong. So if you are going to believe in god just to "be safe," which god are you going to pray too? There are an infinite number of choices, and you can't pray or worship them all. This is why being an agnostic is pointless. What's the point of believing in a supreme being that you have no proof of in the off chance that there is one? What if you aren't doing something he likes?

I have a problem with the definition you've given to agnosticism. To me being an agnostic isn't about keeping your options open in the hope that some mystery god will invite you to the after party, - it's about conceding that there is no way to know whether such a god exists or not. Personally, I just don't care. I'm resigned to the fact that one little over-evolved monkey such as myself isn't going to come up with the meaning of life.

I believe human beings are the result of evolution, and this belief automatically discounts most of society's mainstream religions. But what I lack in religion I make up for in my wonderment of nature and the universe. The idea that everything had to come together just right to begin a chain reaction that has made it possible for me to even be typing this to you now... simply blows my mind. But that's a rant for another day.

What if I'm wrong, or I'm only partly right, and the big bad guy is the sky isn't happy with me? Then bugger it. I am a good person. I don't want to hang out with someone who's into playing mind games anyway.

Brodie said:
You see, I believe that being religious and relying on an all powerful supreme being to give your life meaning and to give you strength is lazy and a crutch. This gives people an excuse to be unethical and to lack morals, because they know that later on they can just be "forgiven" by their god. People should be more pragmatic than this. If you need a "God" to force you into being a good person with morals, by providing you with the fear of being punished, then there is something wrong with you. You shouldn't need some supreme being to "tell you" to be good. You should reach deep down inside yourself to find your inner strength, and everything about you should come from that.

Rather than telling people there is something "wrong" with them, you should contemplate the fact that some people are stronger willed than others. God or no god, this is just a part of human nature. Everyone has their own ideas about what is right and wrong/good and evil. Some people are confident enough in themselves and their ideas to be able to function in society with a relative lack of friction. Others need a little more guidance. It's the same with man-made laws. There are those people who respect and abide by them, and those who try to bend the rules. Hell, it's the same with Santa! "He's making a list, he's checking it twice, Gonna find out who's naughty and nice". Some kids don't need to be bribed with toys and threatened with a lump of coal... others need a little more incentive to behave.

This is only one of many reasons people turn to religion though. I can see how people find comfort in it... it must be nice to feel that you aren't alone. It plays a big part in many people's social and cultural lives too.

Brodie said:
People created religion as a means to CONTROL the population through fear. It makes you weak and dependent on something that doesn't exist, so that you can be brainwashed and easily controlled. Religion has been called the "opiate of the masses" and that's exactly what it is.

Again, just like Santa.

Brodie said:
Reach inside yourself! Create yourself! Develop your OWN sense of self and discover your own strength! Create your OWN identity! Because that's all you ever truly have! YOUR actions determine where you end up at the end of the day, no one else's! Don't use religion as an excuse to be weak!

Oh, so this ended up as an empowerment speech!

I pretty much agree with that, but I'd be more inclined to add, "If you wanna be my baby it don't matter if you're black or white".

Translation: If you're a good person, and you don't try to push your beliefs onto to other people, I don't care if you worship the cane toad.

Thanks for the post Brodie, I enjoyed reading it. I sincerely hope you are as at ease with yourself as this post would suggest.
 
Where do you get all these knowledge from lol? :D

Good posting though guys
 
Your appeal to logic was interesting. However, your appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy overused in either side of the debate.

Perhaps in the end though that is all there is... ones emotions.... ones feelings.... ones belief.

There are no absolutes... if there were we would all be slaves... in this life there is balance... no human can be trusted with power, and so we must remain at odds or else all succumb to the will of one.

I agree to disagree.
 
I'd just like to say that i dont believe in God either..
One.. i dont think it's a crutch 4 lazy people though

but GOSH DaRN! lol i wish that more people didnt believe as well. I dont know any atheist where I live, and do you know how annoying that is? I honestly believe that this is a large piece of why I'm so lonely in the first place.. I like to talk about religion and politics and stuff like that, but no one sees what I see; so I'm branded as dumb. Most people here tell me I'm confused. At the end of the day I feel isolated and like no one would ever understand me on any level.

I've had very close friends who were christian and some of them stopped talking to me because of what i believe. There is something in the Bible 'what ye a believer doeth amongst an infedel' and there was a huge discussion with all my high school friends; at the end of it we all decided that I was an infedel and since it was in the bible they all stopped talking to me.. and we were friends for years before that.

I always wished that I could believe but I know I would be lying if I said that I did. One of the girls from that group of high school friends had and thing with the most popular of that clique and they stopped talking to her almost a year later. Our high school consisted of the most superficial females in ALL of the universe. So EVERYONE in school stopped talking to her; and we started talking since I didnt have friends either.. so she still talks to me..lol so I wasnt alone for all of that high school.

But if I get into what foolishness they stopped talking to her for LOL.. i mean I wouldnt stop typing

Brodie, back to you..
yea I follow you .. but would you say it's better to become dependant on something like say drugs, or sex or friendship as opposed to religion?

n by saying that they become dependant on something that doesnt exist you are NOT saying that God doesnt exist but rather that belief doesnt exist. Cause what a believer is dependant upon is his/her belief.

because if this belief changes then they can no longer depend on it.. not if god stops existing .. since God will always exist to some people.

Thing is in life.. you can say it's a crutch ..because it's something like food. Food is not a crutch. We get hungry so we eat. Just as belief is food to our mind.. we ask questions, we feel lonely.. religious beliefs satify that mental need for some people..

For others religion can't satisfy that need, because they may not believe, they may see thing differently .. but with them still being human they find other mental foods.. so if you say religion is a crutch then whatever it is that's keeping me together is just as much a crutch .. things like this site, or books or love; crutches..just as religion is..

what do you think?
 
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

I know that there are atheists that must see this as I do (although I am no atheist), is this not hypocrisy?

The term church originated from Greek "κυριακή" - "kyriake", meaning "of the lord" and later began to replace the Greek ekklesia and basilica within Christendom, c. AD 300, though it was used by Christians before that time (Acts 20:17).

So many of the assaults on religions come from the corruption of humans within those religions... so what, we all become atheists? This website I provided above proves that atheism is no better or less corruptible in nature than any other human based organization or belief system. All the people on that site care about is getting some money to ordain priests into yet another religion... the religion of anti-religion.

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists" - G K Chesterton

I won't argue the point I've done it too many times over the years, and I grow tired... this former atheist does a pretty good job though...

http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
 
You are arguing a point that is moot. I never said that all atheists are perfect, or right even. There will always be people that use a cause for their own selfish reasons. I'm not trying to argue "who's right." It goes beyond that.

People try tag atheism as another "belief" system, when it isn't. A true atheist doesn't "believe" anything. That quote that says that without god there would be no atheists is flawed. It's like saying that atheists recognize god's existence, but just choose to not worship him anyway. That's completely ridiculous.

To put it as simply as I can, too articulate my point, which is quite hard, all I can say is that I accept things that I have evidence for. People talk of a mysterious supreme being, yet I've seen no evidence of him, so I have no reason to believe in him. Simple as that.

I'm not seeking a label for myself or anyone else. I actually consider myself "nothing". It's just that stating that I'm an atheist is an easy way to describe myself because that's how languages function. You use a word to describe something, but the flaw with that is that people can attach almost ANY meaning to a word that they want.
 
Lonely Boy from OZ said:
Where do you get all these knowledge from lol? :D

Good posting though guys

Hey LBFO..I read a lot of books on ancient civilizations and religious practices of their times..that's a real good place to start.
 
Brodie said:
You are arguing a point that is moot. I never said that all atheists are perfect, or right even. There will always be people that use a cause for their own selfish reasons. I'm not trying to argue "who's right." It goes beyond that.

People try tag atheism as another "belief" system, when it isn't. A true atheist doesn't "believe" anything. That quote that says that without god there would be no atheists is flawed. It's like saying that atheists recognize god's existence, but just choose to not worship him anyway. That's completely ridiculous.

To put it as simply as I can, too articulate my point, which is quite hard, all I can say is that I accept things that I have evidence for. People talk of a mysterious supreme being, yet I've seen no evidence of him, so I have no reason to believe in him. Simple as that.

I'm not seeking a label for myself or anyone else. I actually consider myself "nothing". It's just that stating that I'm an atheist is an easy way to describe myself because that's how languages function. You use a word to describe something, but the flaw with that is that people can attach almost ANY meaning to a word that they want.


Brodie..if I actually told you what I've learned...you'd think I am crazy! So I keep it to myself.
People get very very emotional over this subject..you know that right? But I've always searched for answers..and what I've discovered is too scary to mention..even for me. (Me..whose usually not afraid of anything). It's a good thread Brodie..just the same.
 
Brodie said:
You are arguing a point that is moot.

wiktionary said:
Noun

Singular
moot point


Plural
moot points

moot point (plural moot points)

1. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, and which could only be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

Now that downtown has been rebuilt and business is booming, whether to build more parking spaces has become a moot point.

2. An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such a discussion may be useful for for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.

Usage notes

* The first usage given above is the original meaning of the phrase, and is still dominant in the UK. This second usage given is modern, and increasingly popular. It has come to dominate in the U.S., although some regard it as incorrect.

So by either definition my point was not moot. I saw your statements were flawed. So I will take to the defensive (though I am not worthy of the position), and attempt to clarify what I can, when I have time:

Brodie said:
Yourself is all you will ever have in life. By relying on some imaginary, man-made concept, you will only weaken yourself, and make yourself dependent.

People rely on man-made concepts every day. No man is truly independent... you depend on nature to provide a resource which is converted to power, you rely on a power plant to distribute this power to your local, you depend on you local power supplier to send power to your house, you rely on the wiring installed in your house by an electrician to function properly and provide power to your computer. Your computer was built by a factory where you rely on the fact that they constructed it properly so it may run, you rely on the ISP to allow data to be transmitted so that you may make these posts, and you rely on the forum to accept your posts and display them to others.

If you don't believe in God, then ALL you rely on is man-made concepts. I believe in God and therefore He gives me strength and belief in a world beyond just what man tells me there is, or what my senses can perceive. My belief in God comes not from religion either as you may have assumed. My belief comes from my studies into philosophy, from influencial people I have known in my life, combined experiences, and what I have personally born witness to in my life. No, I may not have seen Him with my eyes, but I have witnessed him with my heart.

Brodie said:
People created religion as a means to CONTROL the population through fear. It makes you weak and dependent on something that doesn't exist, so that you can be brainwashed and easily controlled. Religion has been called the "opiate of the masses" and that's exactly what it is.

No, it does not control me. I do as I please, and more often than not I realize later in life that had I done as religion instructs (not demands, but instructs), I would have been much better off. Religion was called "opiate of the masses" by Marx... what did his teachings bring us? What did his man-made concept bring us? Communism and Socialism. Two forms of government that seek to coerce, control, deceive, brainwash and dominate their populace into a false and imaginary equality. I see religion as more an "infirmary for the masses"... who can be seen out collecting change during the holiday season for the needy? Atheists United? No, the Salvation Army. Who runs the soup kitchens, Atheists for the Needy? No, Mustard Seed Foundation, Salvation army, and other religious organizations. Who collects for the needy? Who feeds and clothes the homeless? Who is found in third world countries providing medicine, food, education, and personnel every day of every year? World Atheist? No, World Vision. I can go on but to what end... these are things you see each day correct? Are these people weak for giving their time, their money, their resources, their attention, their compassion?

I'm sorry Brodie, I hadn't intended on taking this approach to the discussion... in fact I had thought to keep out of it entirely, but I cannot endure a thread that goes from logic, to emotion driven irrational assaults against all religion, and those that would follow those religions. Like many before you in many other discussions I have seen exactly like this, you have been blinded by the wrongs of people... not religion or God, but people that would call themselves religious but do not practice what they preach or follow what they have been taught.

I can however understand some of the great misdirection that religion (not God) but human formed religions can cause. In the Catholic church there is the prayer not to God, but saints and the mother of Jesus... this is the old Roman faith in many gods, polytheism. They also sell icons and symbols for profit... crosses and pendants of saints etc. This is materialistic and not of God, but of man. The protestants have extreme Mormons that practice polygamy and incest. They have many divisions of protestant faiths that is unnecessary and confusing. Islam has its suicide bombers that think murdering innocent people will somehow get them into heaven.

These are all the corruptions of man, not of God.

God is not a "cork", God made the "bottle" and the contents of that "bottle", and all things that exist beyond the "bottle", and He made man too. So He knows the nature and the corruptibility of His creation. Knowledge is not blocked from us, but it reveals itself to us in due time as we seek it out.

Brodie said:
To me, learning those secrets is the most fulfilling pleasure that there is in life, and the existence of a neglectful, unmerciful "God" is just a cork in the bottle stopping the flow of knowledge.

If you don't believe, then why do you call Him neglectful and unmerciful? A true believer knows through both teachings, as well as through life experience, that God is infinitely merciful and does not neglect His children.

Spend your days seeking out knowledge and enlightenment Brodie. Don't waste your intellect accusing a religion that you don't believe in or truly understand for holding you and others back from obtaining said knowledge. (there was no sarcasm there) In fact, there are passages in the bible that speak of Gods desire for us to learn and know His creation, and gain understanding of the universe. Don't use religion as your weakness. The only thing holding people back from knowledge and understanding is themselves.

Brodie said:
Reach inside yourself! Create yourself! Develop your OWN sense of self and discover your own strength! Create your OWN identity! Because that's all you ever truly have! YOUR actions determine where you end up at the end of the day, no one else's! Don't use religion as an excuse to be weak!

Up to the last statement I agree totally.
"Don't use religion as an excuse to be weak!" I don't understand this statement at all though. In all my experience God gives strength, not weakness. Please explain yourself.

Brodie said:
I never said that all atheists are perfect, or right even. There will always be people that use a cause for their own selfish reasons. I'm not trying to argue "who's right." It goes beyond that.

*Sighs* Yes it does go beyond that... but you are Brodie. You are trying to argue "who's right". You may not be saying "I'm right and you're wrong." in those exact words, but you are saying that religion creates weak, mindless, selfish, etc people... so ethics and logic dictate that to be those adjectives is wrong, therefore you are, indirectly, saying that religion is wrong (yahoooooo! I love any chance I get to use what I learned in those bloody Logical Thinking courses :p)

Brodie said:
People try [to] tag atheism as another "belief" system, when it isn't. A true atheist doesn't "believe" anything.

This statement is clearly a contradiction. Atheism is a belief in disbelief. Sorry, that is a good example of a moot point :p

Brodie said:
That quote that says that without god there would be no atheists is flawed. It's like saying that atheists recognize god's existence, but just choose to not worship him anyway. That's completely ridiculous.

No, no, no, it's actually a joking quote... I wasn't being serious with that, I was tired when I made the post (reading your original post, letter, and the following posts exhausted me with the effort of concentration... as I'm sure my lengthy post is right now certainly doing for others), and so after my little rant about that foolish website, I threw in a quick quote that had made me laugh to try and be dismissive of my post and make light of what I had been reading before I went to bed... so my mind wouldn't be racing... let me explain:

This quote deals more with the conception of a divinity than it does with its reality. In other words, since we believe in God, he must exist, in some form, even if only as a concept (much like Zeus exists, even though he is not a true god). Atheists cannot rightly say they "oppose God" because that would contradict their belief system. Rather, they may say, "I oppose the conception of God," etc. Make sense? What Chesterton was saying was clever indeed, but little contemplation is required to conclude that it does nothing to prove the Reality of the Divinity--nothing to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a transcendent, personal Being who created and sustains everything.

Brodie said:
To put it as simply as I can, too articulate my point, which is quite hard, all I can say is that I accept things that I have evidence for. People talk of a mysterious supreme being, yet I've seen no evidence of him, so I have no reason to believe in him. Simple as that.

This I can understand. Either side of the debate can be difficult to explain at times. That is why ones belief in God is called Faith.

Brodie said:
You see, I believe that being religious and relying on an all powerful supreme being to give your life meaning and to give you strength is lazy and a crutch. This gives people an excuse to be unethical and to lack morals, because they know that later on they can just be "forgiven" by their god. People should be more pragmatic than this. If you need a "God" to force you into being a good person with morals, by providing you with the fear of being punished, then there is something wrong with you. You shouldn't need some supreme being to "tell you" to be good. You should reach deep down inside yourself to find your inner strength, and everything about you should come from that.

Okay, this is false. Yes, if in your heart you regret what sin you have done and you ask forgiveness then all will be forgiven, but do not confuse this with a "get out of judgement free pass".

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." There is some confusion about this verse... some Christians believe that all sins are forgiven and forgotten. I personally believe that while they are forgiven and forgotten, a day will come when our eyes will be opened to the truths of the universe and our God, and on that day we will truly see ourselves and our deeds in light of that new knowledge. Imagine if you could see all the suffering a simple cruelty may have caused many others. It's like the pay-it-forward idea... could there not be an evil parallel of such a concept? What if, like with a movie, you could examine all the branches of cause and effect in the blink of an eye? What pain would such revelation bring... would that not be punishment enough for those deeds... the more the evil deeds the more the suffering endured. Sort of like with The Crow... he had the power to touch someone and show them the pain caused. Anyway, I don't want to drift too far into speculation and imagination.

Here you also say that there is something "wrong" with believers, and you even touch on ethics and morals... if you are as you claim, an intellectual seeking knowledge, then read on... tread lightly though, there are scripture quotes ahead :p ...

[As an atheist,] why be ethical? Can an adequate basis for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right and wrong. If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai, thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are merely left with humanly devised scruples. If humanity is left to create its own ethical standards, we are left with only three options to base ethics upon: 1) collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3) personal preference.

IS COLLECTIVE TRADITION AN ETHICAL BASE?

Those who argue that morality is properly based upon what society as a whole deems moral have a big problem. What one society says is moral another says is immoral. Nazi Germany held that it was morally good and beneficial to exterminate the Jewish people. The Allies saw the Nazis as evil and fought against them. Who was right? If one believes God gave the law You shall not murder, the answer is obvious. Any society that advocates murder is evil. How can an atheist respond? Most would admit the Nazis were evil, but according to what standard? Were the Nazis evil just because the Allies said they were evil or were they in fact evil? One can try to argue that it isn't just what a few societies say that matters, but what the majority of human societies agree upon. This does provide a better basis, since God has given us a conscience, but it has been corrupted by rebellion. At one time most human societies placed less value on female offspring than on males. In many societies female infants were left to die. In some places this exists today. This is morally wrong, no matter if the whole of human society were to say otherwise! Basing morality on human society does not provide an adequate answer.

WHAT ABOUT HUMAN SURVIVAL

What of an evolutionary model for morality? Why not posit that whatever benefits human survival is moral? To some this may be appealing, but first ask some questions. Why, based upon atheistic assumptions, should we logically value human survival? What difference does it all make? Why is life valuable? Isn't belief in human survival itself a moral assumption, a value judgement that has no basis in an atheistic world view? Furthermore, consider what an ethic based solely on survival could lead to: the elimination of those perceived to have less survival value. The Nazi movement, based upon an evolutionary eugenic ideal of developing a super race, destroyed those deemed by them inferior or unsuitable. Reproduction was to be limited to those deemed most fit. Mankind, when left to its own devices to develop its moral basis, commits systemized murder and oppression. Consider the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and the horrible situations we have witnessed in Rwanda and Bosnia. Both atheists and religious people so easily justify murder. Just because we have also seen horrors committed by those claiming to believe in some sort of god doesn't disprove my point. I'm not advocating just any old god! It is still true that when any society abandons the God-given law, Thou shalt not murder, horror results.

FEELINGS, NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS...

What of basing morality on one's personal preferences? What of just saying you can know what is wrong by following your heart? What a dippy idea this is! Jeffrey Dahmer's heart led him to murder and cannibalize his fellow humans! Basing morality on feelings is the ultimate in irrationality. This puts moral judgement on the level of personal taste. Dahmer might have thought you suitable to his taste!

The Apostle Paul, wrote:

The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise they became fools...
Rom. 1:18-22
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That last bit on ethics I take no credit for, it came from Fred Klett, a former atheist. You can even contact him by mail, phone, or email to further discuss his article with him.
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm

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Anyway, thats enough out of me.

Just to clarify: I am not trying to convert anyone, and I will not say I am pious, a good Christian, or even a practicing Christian. I believe in God, as God believes in me nuff said XD.
 
Well..boys and girls..one thing's for sure..

We're all gonna find out in the end..
 

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