my chances for significant other are severely reduced because of my personality?>>

i hate the thought of having a girlfriend just for the sake of having a girlfriend. one of the things that annoys me the most is when my friends start talking along the lines of "getting laid"/"making a move" type of conversations. and strategies to "get the girl">> what, is it like a game or something? (i despise the thought of this)

- when you go on a date, as my friends have pointed out, your supposedly supposed to go to a romance or a horror movie, and the quality of the movie is not an issue. well if it was a good movie then sure, but why would i want to go watch a movie if its a shitty movie?

- your supposed to pay for your date in restaurants? - my friends killed me for this, when on prom, i split the bill>> honestly, im not paying for both for every meal we get>>

- i watched my friend, on a very cold day at nighttime, give his shirt and coat to his girlfriend as we were all walking together. so then he was left with wearing almost nothing while it was freezing outside... why? she had her own goddamn coat>> great, now your freezing>>

- or, as i watched my friend spend a hundred $ on valentines, or, as i watch him pay for buttloads of presents, gifts, food, etc. etc. he always complained to me how he was spending so much on his girlfriend and that he's losing money. yes... so then why are you spending so much? whats the point? why would anyone need a goddamn hundred dollar present every birthday, valentines, and goddamn christmas (we're students)?? in which case i was instantly rebuked with a "you wouldnt understand". no. i clearly dont. and i probably never will>>

i never understood the large amount of money that my friend seems to be losing from the fact that he has a girlfriend. cant you make a meaningful present yourself? i dont understand the time/energy consuming aspect either. yes , two people are in a relationship, but i always believed that at the same time, each has their own lives to lead, own dreams to fulfill, etc. etc. (im not sacrificing my ambitions for any relationship)>> -

i guess you could say im a realist/individualist, am very analytical, skeptical, and generally am not one to follow something/do something unless i think it makes reasonable sense; which, after talking with my friends, appears that it is not a very good combination to go with trying to find a girlfriend. any thoughts? btw im 19, single, only dated once, and with what limited experience and observations ive had, am fairly cynical about this "relationship" process (well, at least the one in highschool and freshman year of college anyways). why? because the people around me make it sound as if its a kind of game, as if its required to have at least been in a relationship/had sex by the time your done with college (as a note, im just saying that this is the general feeling im getting - by no means does this mean that i think everyone, or even the majority, thinks like this). i may sound like i dont want a relationship, but that is not the case. i dont care about looks - i do want to end up with someone, but i believe in having a "middle ground" in all relationships if that makes sense.

or, do i not even have the right to talk about this, since i have no experience? am i too cold? can anyone relate? any input?

tho you wouldnt want to date me(my chances for a sig. other are reduced cus i'm ugly lol) i'll just say...

the 1st thing you said is a plus in my book.

also i dont need .. (and wouldnt) want a guy to spend loads of money on gifts or anything like that 4 me. what we have btw. us shouldnt be based on stuff like that.. a simple hug or sharing/sacrificing his coat when i'm cold will do.

btw. the coat thing..this happened to me once. it was sweet. in my case i walked through the rain for my then boyfriend (i had something for him)..then i had to go into air-condition for a class, so he let me change into his shirt and he only had on a vest under.. and he had a class as well.. but he lied and said he wasnt going... then afterwards i found out he went (dumb boy). Twas an air-conditioned class as well.

but it was sweet of him.. i dont think it's wrong to do little stuff like that even if you suffer.. you gain much more through seeing someone you like comfortable.

If you're not willing to sacrifice anything for the sake of a relationship, even time, then chances are that any relationship that you do create will be incredibly short-lived. Its like having a dance without acknowledging your partner's moves or having a feel for her at all - it won't last.

Regards,
IO

IgnoredOne said:

If you're not willing to sacrifice anything for the sake of a relationship, even time, then chances are that any relationship that you do create will be incredibly short-lived. Its like having a dance without acknowledging your partner's moves or having a feel for her at all - it won't last.

Regards,
IO

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hmm... thanks>>

I pretty much agree with you. I wish the dating process wasn't so financially draining. I don't even treat myself to restaurant food...

i'd say for someone with almost no expierience, you are being extremely cynical. i would say you just need to find the right person, but if you really are unwilling to sacrifice anything then i would have to agree... you probably are better off alone. not being mean just stating the facts. >.<

RainyDaze said:

i'd say for someone with almost no expierience, you are being extremely cynical. i would say you just need to find the right person, but if you really are unwilling to sacrifice anything then i would have to agree... you probably are better off alone. not being mean just stating the facts. >.<

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hm.. i will admit myself that i need experience, and im also predicting that if i ever do, my thoughts on the whole matter will most likely change> however, for now, im fairly skeptical>>

Dating is entirely a game, and yes it is a waste of money. Because and I have brought this up to jales before. The dating process is prostitution at least in the traditional sense. The time thing is probably the realistic sacrifice you have to make, but your friends an idiot. Because if his girlfriend gave a honeysuckle about him she wouldn't be making him lose oh so much just for her. But thats selfish people for yah. Blah blah blah find the right person, is what they say but finding that person means searching through loads of crap. Which wastes even more money.

Do what feels right to you.

If you're the type to split the bill then split the bill. If you don't want to pamper your girlfriend, then don't. Don't worry about what your friends say; they have their way of treating girls, and you have your own.

Still, DO try to be a bit romantic, yes? Also, always remember to be considerate and polite to a girl when you're around her. If you don't want to buy her an expensive gift, at least get her a sentimental one. Show her that you care about her. As for the technical details of a relationship (e.g., who pays for what): they differ from individual to individual. I know women who expect the man to pay for everything, and I know women who would get offended if their men tried to take care of everything. I've met women who were extremely clingy, and I've met women who want their own space. Believe me, there is a woman with the same expectations of a relationship as you. Just be patient, continue to talk regularly to girls, and the right one will come your way.

Whatever happens, don't think you're strange or undesirable to women just because you don't see eye to eye with your friends. If anything, feeling undesirable and developing low self-esteem will keep you from getting a girlfriend, rather than being a realist. It might help to stop spending so much time analyzing the whole dating process, and learning to just have fun. That should be your primary goal when dating: having fun with a girl. So go out! Have fun!

As for the whole "game" deal: in a way, courtship is a game. Every male animal on the planet uses some tactic to try and mate with a female. Oftentimes, they have to compete with other males to try and get the healthiest and most aesthetically pleasing female. The female, in turn, judges to see which male is most fit to provide for her and her young. There's nothing sick about it, really; that's just how mating works. Oftentimes, we tend to forget that we have animal urges, too. Your friends are simply using the tactics that they think work best for them. If you find their talk to be rather vulgar, just ignore it; it's one of the pitfalls of being around young, immature males. Believe me, that talk isn't going to go away anytime soon. I'm 26, and I still know plenty of guys who talk about women like they're slabs of meat. It gets better, but not by much. =/

blak000 said:

Do what feels right to you.

If you're the type to split the bill then split the bill. If you don't want to pamper your girlfriend, then don't. Don't worry about what your friends say; they have their way of treating girls, and you have your own.

Still, DO try to be a bit romantic, yes? Also, always remember to be considerate and polite to a girl when you're around her. If you don't want to buy her an expensive gift, at least get her a sentimental one. Show her that you care about her. As for the technical details of a relationship (e.g., who pays for what): they differ from individual to individual. I know women who expect the man to pay for everything, and I know women who would get offended if their men tried to take care of everything. I've met women who were extremely clingy, and I've met women who want their own space. Believe me, there is a woman with the same expectations of a relationship as you. Just be patient, continue to talk regularly to girls, and the right one will come your way.

Whatever happens, don't think you're strange or undesirable to women just because you don't see eye to eye with your friends. If anything, feeling undesirable and developing low self-esteem will keep you from getting a girlfriend, rather than being a realist. It might help to stop spending so much time analyzing the whole dating process, and learning to just have fun. That should be your primary goal when dating: having fun with a girl. So go out! Have fun!

As for the whole "game" deal: in a way, courtship is a game. Every male animal on the planet uses some tactic to try and mate with a female. Oftentimes, they have to compete with other males to try and get the healthiest and most aesthetically pleasing female. The female, in turn, judges to see which male is most fit to provide for her and her young. There's nothing sick about it, really; that's just how mating works. Oftentimes, we tend to forget that we have animal urges, too. Your friends are simply using the tactics that they think work best for them. If you find their talk to be rather vulgar, just ignore it; it's one of the pitfalls of being around young, immature males. Believe me, that talk isn't going to go away anytime soon. I'm 26, and I still know plenty of guys who talk about women like they're slabs of meat. It gets better, but not by much. =/

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thanks for the advice!>>

I think a very good question that you have to ask yourself is what do you want from a relationship? If you have God's paintbrush right now and could create any woman and relationship you wanted, what would you make?

I'll go over some common motivators for men:

1) Sex. This is probably the most instinctive drive in us, but if that's all you're looking for, without wanting anything else from your girl, then you're probably better off taking a vacation to Germany and find a nice brothel. The sacrifice here is money.

No personal experience here, as I passed by the brothels in Holland without paying patronage. I would definitely have gone in if I was alone and if all I wanted was sex. I don't condemn it at all.

2) Ego. Not instinctive, but socially driven and very deeply rooted in many of us. This involves "feeling good" because you have a girl, and also includes "showing off" your girl to friends to avoid accusations of being gay or too weak to get a girl. Though, even if you get a great trophy armcandy girlfriend, you can't show her off unless you're spending time with her outside in a place where your friends(and enemies) can see. You will need to sacrifice time here.

You don't need a girlfriend for this, but you can just have a good-looking or popular female friend who spends time with you for the ego boost. Some women don't appreciate being shown off, but you will find a few love it. Most aren't very good at it either, but you will discover a some girls are brilliant at it.

I spent a lot of time with a professional stage ballerina who had grown up in a traditional highborn household and taught how to be classical lady. She was spectacularly graceful at making her boy shine, hold any conversation, and make everyone feel simultaneously envious and glad of her company.

I remember dining once at a restaurant with her, and asking to see her hand after she teased me being a maid. And of course, the hands of noblewomen are traditionally free of any chafing or signs of work. She didn't just show me her hand: she daintily lilted it from her lap, and with a slight twitch of her wrist, she blossomed the fingers to present her hand to her while adding an impeteous grin and a whispered Voila! When I replied that I thought that her French was sexy, she plunged into a long pouty French sentence and by the end of it, I could tell that everyone else in the restaurant was looking at us. She noticed them and demurely leaned her cheek into her hand, half-watching them back.

One of the happiest moments of my life. But I can assure that it wasn't with any lack of expenditure of time, money or effort; I had named her my muse by then, written stories about her, and was paying for the expensive dinner we were having together.

3) Security. Quite a few men are looking for a sense of security by having someone to rely on, such as a girl, to confess our deepest problems to and have someone to talk to. Even though I don't believe its a good idea a lot of the time, feeling the need to depend on someone else is very common. I've certainly done so a lot with M and C.

If you're looking for this, you might want to think about focusing on your male friends instead as they can also provide you with much of the same security. You should have at least one close guy friend who you don't need to keep up pretenses with - hopefully someone who you can drive up to in the dead of night, tell him that you have a body in the trunk and need a shovel to help bury it.

That said, women can provide a kind of support and kindness that men can't. Obviously, you'll have to sacrifice time for this, as you're not going to be having a deep personal conversation unless you've been spending a lot of time with her.

Its incredibly important to know what you want, because until then, you won't know what you're sacrificing for and working toward. But ultimately, yes, sacrifice is essential. Just like getting a degree in college requires our time and money, so does beginning and maintaining a relationship.

Regards,
IO

IgnoredOne said:

I spent a lot of time with a professional stage ballerina who had grown up in a traditional highborn household and taught how to be classical lady. She was spectacularly graceful at making her boy shine, hold any conversation, and make everyone feel simultaneously envious and glad of her company.

I remember dining once at a restaurant with her, and asking to see her hand after she teased me being a maid. And of course, the hands of noblewomen are traditionally free of any chafing or signs of work. She didn't just show me her hand: she daintily lilted it from her lap, and with a slight twitch of her wrist, she blossomed the fingers to present her hand to her while adding an impeteous grin and a whispered Voila! When I replied that I thought that her French was sexy, she plunged into a long pouty French sentence and by the end of it, I could tell that everyone else in the restaurant was looking at us. She noticed them and demurely leaned her cheek into her hand, half-watching them back.

One of the happiest moments of my life. But I can assure that it wasn't with any lack of expenditure of time, money or effort; I had named her my muse by then, written stories about her, and was paying for the expensive dinner we were having together.

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My God, you make ME wish I knew her. She sounds like an absolute treasure.

blak000 said:

My God, you make ME wish I knew her. She sounds like an absolute treasure.

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She so is, but sadly she doesn't realize it. She's one of the most beautiful women that I've ever had the pleasure of knowing, yet she can only see her own flaws. One of the traits of her heritage, for example, has been slender, easily broken bones - it makes her absolutely delicate and fragile, but she treats it as if its the most horrible thing in the world.

We never see the beauties in ourselves.

Regards,
IO

Dating also depends on the personality of the woman. Your friend probably has a woman who likes to be spent on, but not all girls are like that. And the coat thing he might of done it because he observed that its romantic to give your coat to the girl. But the real meaning is just you don't want your love one to suffer, so you give her your coat. It could work the other way too. I personally think going to the movies for a date is pretty lame. You should take her to the park or some place where you can interact.

I know a number of independent women who not only do not like receiving lavish gifts from men but also insist on splitting the check at a restaurant. There's no reason these traits should keep you from having a significant other. It IS romantic to give a girl your coat, though I don't recall a guy ever doing that for me. I had a guy offer once, but I told him to keep his coat on. Not all women want to be treated the same way

you're right and wrong at the same time.

an unhealthy commitment (friendship, relationship, brotherhood) is one where you give/receive way more than you give/receive, which leads at least one of the two parts to start adding up and calculating differences.

a healthy commitment is one where you give and receive without keeping track of anything because you know that giving or receiving one or a hundred times one will always bear the same meaning.

kitsch valentines crap, scheduled anniversary gifts and fancy dinners with one of the 2 parts always paying are despicable bigot traditions.

Psychedelic said:

kitsch valentines crap, scheduled anniversary gifts and fancy dinners with one of the 2 parts always paying are despicable bigot traditions.

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Traditions exist for a reason, though. Studies have consistently shown that most women subconsciously equal a man being a good provider with a man being attractive. So I don't think there's anything wrong in doing the best to care for your girl.

There's another concern too - at our age(assuming that we are in our twenties), most women have more options for male dates than vice versa and they tend to gravitate toward men they perceive as "high value" somehow. One study found that in an average sample of twenty-something women had, on average, twice as much sex than men of the same age group. This wouldn't seem possible normally, assuming equal distribution of sex, but what appears to be actually happening is that about a quarter of the men are having sex up to four times.

So essentially, in many ways, you're not trying to just get the girl's attention - you're also competing against every other man who's trying to get the girl's attention. Money, which is a conceptualized representation of effort, is one way that we can try to demonstrate that we are either good providers or more valuable to spend time with.

Life is fun.

Regards,
IO