logical suicide

WL7.3 · Jul 1, 2013

Is there any logical reason not to kill ones self if everything has always sucked, has only gotten worse, sucks in every area of life for at least 1/2 of ones natural life, for tangible, objective reasons will only get worse, They have nothing to contribute and can only survive by leaching off of others, and the only people who would (maybe) be hurt by it, deserve it because they were major contributors. Please no answers like, each day is a gift, hell, things could get better(because in this hypothetical situation, they can't, for tangible objective reasons) or champagne and bubble baths.

EveWasFramed · Jul 1, 2013

WL7.3 said:
Is there any logical reason not to kill ones self....

Because you said.... ↓

WL7.3 said:
Despite all this and because of it, I like myself.

WL7.3 · Jul 1, 2013

EveWasFramed said:
WL7.3 said:

Is there any logical reason not to kill ones self....

Click to expand...

Because you said.... ↓

WL7.3 said:

Despite all this and because of it, I like myself.

Click to expand...

1) This is hypothetical.
2) If this was my situation, I would end my misery because I like myself.

WL7.3 · Jul 2, 2013

O.k., I admit it was about me. Sorry if I sound like a jerk.

Sci-Fi · Jul 2, 2013

Suicide usually isn't logical it's actually very selfish. A lot of people on this forum have been there, where you think you just can't take it anymore, can't take anymore disappointment, can't take anymore set backs, can't take anymore crap. Your life just seems to keep going down the drain and nothing seems to be going your way. But you go on, you keep trudging on each day doing what you can to try and make your life a little bit better if nothing else will. You find something that makes YOU happy, something that helps YOU get through each day, something that YOU can look forward to, something that YOU enjoy.

LeaningIntoTheMuse · Jul 2, 2013

Logical is solving your issues. It isn't ending it all and giving up.

Locke · Jul 2, 2013

If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

LeaningIntoTheMuse · Jul 2, 2013

Locke is right. If people care about you, you shouldn't give up.

ladyforsaken · Jul 2, 2013

Locke said:
If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

+1
My sentiments exactly.
Please take care, WL7.3.

WL7.3 · Jul 2, 2013

Sci-Fi said:
Suicide usually isn't logical it's actually very selfish. A lot of people on this forum have been there, where you think you just can't take it anymore, can't take anymore disappointment, can't take anymore set backs, can't take anymore crap. Your life just seems to keep going down the drain and nothing seems to be going your way. But you go on, you keep trudging on each day doing what you can to try and make your life a little bit better if nothing else will. You find something that makes YOU happy, something that helps YOU get through each day, something that YOU can look forward to, something that YOU enjoy.

1) How does selfish= illogical?
2) Why does it matter if it is?
3) Isn't finding something YOU can look forward to etc and keep living... more selfish than you're death, if your existence causes you to leach off of others to survive and no one cares about you anyway?
4) What's the point of trudging through a primarily painful existence if the good times are few, far between and not that good?

LeaningIntoTheMuse said:
Logical is solving your issues. It isn't ending it all and giving up.
[/quote
Some would argue that to end the pain of your self and others and to conserve resources is a logical solution to a problem.

Locke said:

If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

Click to expand...

The stigma attached to suicide is what would hurt them, not my absence or the pain I was in. If those things did hurt them, they would not be absent and they would show concern for my pain. They're the ones who are selfish; the people who have hurt and neglected me all my life. It's not that I want revenge, it's that the thought of those people being hurt has been the only thing that kept me from considering it an option- until I reconsidered.
I have other problems that are for physical reasons very very very likely to get worse and never get better and kill me in a slow painful way. I just watched it happen to my Dad this year. That is just one of my problems but it makes all of my other problems, which are no joke, impossible to fix. As a matter of fact, it makes them a lot worse. I'm not considering this option because of some chemical imbalance or mood swing.
My dad wanted to kill himself every day and didn't because everyone begged him not to. He went through mental and physical pain that was equivalent to torture. He went from being a brilliant man to being a near vegetable. It was selfish of us to keep him alive, almost criminal.
Now I look forward to the same fate and I won't make the same mistake.
If they don't understand my decision after seeing what happened to him, their monsters as well as jerks.

Rosebolt · Jul 2, 2013

Things can get better in that one's mindset can always change. Therefore, one is able to change their outlook on any dire situation. This is obviously a hard thing to do.

I indeed agree that it was a jerk move to let your dad be hurt like that for their own pleasure. Which it was, since they would be unhappier if he left early.

I very much disagree with suicide being selfish. If one has ever been to that stage, you'd actually know that you, with some exceptions, will not think of suicide with the intent of hurting anyone, including yourself. Everyone seems to forget the sufferer. Live for yourself. Always.

Suicide is quite boring though. I mean, you're alive now, might as well learn some cool stuff or discover some epic songs. If you know you're going to die some time, might as well do some crazy cool stuff. Live every day like the last. Unless the last day is one with impossible pain, then live every day like the best day of your life.

Or else you could just kill yourself. The end.

Nah, there's no excitement there. Think of some really crazy stuff you always wanted to do and just go for it. Like, fresia the world, i'm gonna do it. Not that you have to fresia the world, death row takes a long while. Anyway, you get what i mean. That's how i got over it.

And if you're physically impaired in some way, look at what you can do. I mean, if i was paralyzed for 100%, wouldn't feel anything and couldn't move anything. I'd somehow have people use me as a football and see how that goes. Be creative man, there's alot of fun to be had.

No fun in killing oneself though.

Happy living.

WL7.3 · Jul 2, 2013

Rosebolt said:
Things can get better in that one's mindset can always change. Therefore, one is able to change their outlook on any dire situation. This is obviously a hard thing to do.

I indeed agree that it was a jerk move to let your dad be hurt like that for their own pleasure. Which it was, since they would be unhappier if he left early.

I very much disagree with suicide being selfish. If one has ever been to that stage, you'd actually know that you, with some exceptions, will not think of suicide with the intent of hurting anyone, including yourself. Everyone seems to forget the sufferer. Live for yourself. Always.

Suicide is quite boring though. I mean, you're alive now, might as well learn some cool stuff or discover some epic songs. If you know you're going to die some time, might as well do some crazy cool stuff. Live every day like the last. Unless the last day is one with impossible pain, then live every day like the best day of your life.

Or else you could just kill yourself. The end.

Nah, there's no excitement there. Think of some really crazy stuff you always wanted to do and just go for it. Like, fresia the world, i'm gonna do it. Not that you have to fresia the world, death row takes a long while. Anyway, you get what i mean. That's how i got over it.

And if you're physically impaired in some way, look at what you can do. I mean, if i was paralyzed for 100%, wouldn't feel anything and couldn't move anything. I'd somehow have people use me as a football and see how that goes. Be creative man, there's alot of fun to be had.

No fun in killing oneself though.

Happy living.

WL7.3 said:
Rosebolt said:

Things can get better in that one's mindset can always change. Therefore, one is able to change their outlook on any dire situation. This is obviously a hard thing to do.

I indeed agree that it was a jerk move to let your dad be hurt like that for their own pleasure. Which it was, since they would be unhappier if he left early.

I very much disagree with suicide being selfish. If one has ever been to that stage, you'd actually know that you, with some exceptions, will not think of suicide with the intent of hurting anyone, including yourself. Everyone seems to forget the sufferer. Live for yourself. Always.

Suicide is quite boring though. I mean, you're alive now, might as well learn some cool stuff or discover some epic songs. If you know you're going to die some time, might as well do some crazy cool stuff. Live every day like the last. Unless the last day is one with impossible pain, then live every day like the best day of your life.

Or else you could just kill yourself. The end.

Nah, there's no excitement there. Think of some really crazy stuff you always wanted to do and just go for it. Like, fresia the world, i'm gonna do it. Not that you have to fresia the world, death row takes a long while. Anyway, you get what i mean. That's how i got over it.

And if you're physically impaired in some way, look at what you can do. I mean, if i was paralyzed for 100%, wouldn't feel anything and couldn't move anything. I'd somehow have people use me as a football and see how that goes. Be creative man, there's alot of fun to be had.

No fun in killing oneself though.

Happy living.

Click to expand...

I agree, suicide is generally not to hurt anyone but to stop hurting. When your strength to carry is not equal to the load, you drop it. It's a simple equation. When we strip away every unprovable philosophy, what remains is the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.That's what I've been doing up to this point in my crummy life, but physical torture is where I draw the line. My dad was beyond disabled, he was in hell. As exciting as hell on earth may sound, when he wasn't being cut into, with minimal pain killers, throwing up blood or having seizures,he was really bored; laying in stale rooms in pain, alone or mistreated by nurses aids, his family unable to look him in the eye, watching his body deteriorate and distort until anything that could bring joy in life, eating, sex, entertainment, sleep, even ones own cognitive abilities, was gone. The disease ate away at his brain, nervous system and adrenal system to the point where happiness and changing paradigms was no longer an option. This condition eventually causes despair and suicidal desires, the person doesn't choose it.
That's the reality I'm planning an escape route from. I won't jump the gun, (no pun intended), but if I get near enough to that place with no signs of slowing, I'm going to slam on the brakes if you know what I mean, before it's to late. Suicide doesn't appeal to me in any other way than as an end to suffering without reasonable hope, and I stress the word reasonable. I'm afraid to do it and don't enjoy the thought of the most marginal bystander in my life knowing of it, that's why I'm even discussing it, but I know I may have to do it. If I hadn't seen what is likely to happen with my own eyes, I would probably still be hopeful, but it's terrifying to have to watch what's going to happen to you first.
As far as selfishness goes 1) The people who call people who commit suicide selfish, are selfish.
2) Everyone is selfish and even the most selfless act can be traced back to selfish reasons. We capitalize I, not you.

I appreciate everyones thoughtful input. Was just making sure I wasn't missing anything and also trying to process a harsh reality.

WL7.3 · Jul 2, 2013

Locke said:
If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

Deserve is a subjective term and so I suppose it isn't relevant in a logical discussion, so forget I said it. According to this article, pain is subjective to a point, which opens up a small can of worms regarding others pain and mine.http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/gimperato.html

Sci-Fi · Jul 2, 2013

WL7.3 said:
1) How does selfish= illogical?
2) Why does it matter if it is?
3) Isn't finding something YOU can look forward to etc and keep living... more selfish than you're death, if your existence causes you to leach off of others to survive and no one cares about you anyway?
4) What's the point of trudging through a primarily painful existence if the good times are few, far between and not that good?

I was saying suicide is selfish, never said it was illogical. Seeing as you came to that conclusion though I can't answer your second question.

Finding something you can look forward to isn't selfish, again not sure how you come to that conclusion. Doing something that makes you happy for yourself isn't selfish. The only way it would be selfish is if you did something that caused others pain or inconvenience them. Like committing suicide. I'm talking about anything, like a tv show you enjoy watching each week, a movie, anything. What I told you is how I get through each day. I look forward to all kinds of things no matter how small or insignificant others may think it is.

Look I'll be straight with you, it is hard. Everyday you wake up wondering why you couldn't have just died in your sleep. Then you start thinking about your day and how you have to do everything on your own with no help. It makes you not want to get up, but you do. You get through your day looking forward to some stupid program on tv or play some silly game to pass the time. Maybe go to the mall and buy yourself something that you really don't need but brings some light to your otherwise gloomy day. Getting a message from someone or running into some stranger that ends up chatting with you, giving you someone to talk to where you normally wouldn't. Or going to your favorite store each weekend. If you're not around you can't look forward to any of that stuff. That's how I get through each endless week.

Spiderpope · Jul 2, 2013

Suicide is not logical. How can you improve your life by ending it? You kill yourself, you cease to exist, that's it.
If you want things to get better, you have to be alive to do it.

Locke · Jul 3, 2013

WL7.3 said:
Locke said:

If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

Click to expand...

Deserve is a subjective term and so I suppose it isn't relevant in a logical discussion, so forget I said it. According to this article, pain is subjective to a point, which opens up a small can of worms regarding others pain and mine.http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/gimperato.html

You're right, pain is subjective. The first time I attempted suicide was hours after watching my wife die in a accident. To you, some stranger's death might not mean much. But she was my wife and I loved her more than anything. I would have rather gone through an eternity of physical pain rather then watch her die. She meant everything to me, and I have little reason to live without her.

So if you don't want to talk about "Deserve" maybe we shouldn't discuss pain either, because no one can understand your pain but you. But I can and do sympathise.

So what is it that you do want to discuss? The ethics of suicide? There's a debate section for that. Ethically I believe that suicide is wrong in most cases, but I don't know your pain and don't have all of the facts. For those reasons, I won't debate it here. Are you looking for someone to tell you that you should kill yourself? That's probably not going to happen. Even if someone wanted to, its against the law to encourage suicide in some places. It might even be against the rules here.

I stand by my original post: I believe that life is precious, and throwing it away is a selfish waste. But you have your reasons, and I'm trying my best to understand them. Life could get better, you can't know that it won't. You could find a reason to live tomorrow or a year from now.

I am very sorry if my post offended or angered you, and I'm sorry I couldn't help you. At the very least, I hope you know that all I wanted was to help, and I wish the best for you.

WL7.3 · Jul 3, 2013

Locke said:
WL7.3 said:

Locke said:

If people care enough that it would hurt them, they don't deserve it. Revenge is not a good reason to do anything, especially something that can never be undone. But if you want revenge, live. Prove to the world and yourself that you're capable of more than giving up.

Taking your own life is the ultimate of selfish acts, you're robbing the world of who you are. You say things will never get better, but you can't know that. You only get one life, throwing it away isn't logical at all.

Call a suicide helpline, find things that'll make you happy, and above all, fight for your life.

Click to expand...

Deserve is a subjective term and so I suppose it isn't relevant in a logical discussion, so forget I said it. According to this article, pain is subjective to a point, which opens up a small can of worms regarding others pain and mine.http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/gimperato.html

Click to expand...

You're right, pain is subjective. The first time I attempted suicide was hours after watching my wife die in a accident. To you, some stranger's death might not mean much. But she was my wife and I loved her more than anything. I would have rather gone through an eternity of physical pain rather then watch her die. She meant everything to me, and I have little reason to live without her.

So if you don't want to talk about "Deserve" maybe we shouldn't discuss pain either, because no one can understand your pain but you. But I can and do sympathise.

So what is it that you do want to discuss? The ethics of suicide? There's a debate section for that. Ethically I believe that suicide is wrong in most cases, but I don't know your pain and don't have all of the facts. For those reasons, I won't debate it here. Are you looking for someone to tell you that you should kill yourself? That's probably not going to happen. Even if someone wanted to, its against the law to encourage suicide in some places. It might even be against the rules here.

I stand by my original post: I believe that life is precious, and throwing it away is a selfish waste. But you have your reasons, and I'm trying my best to understand them. Life could get better, you can't know that it won't. You could find a reason to live tomorrow or a year from now.

I am very sorry if my post offended or angered you, and I'm sorry I couldn't help you. At the very least, I hope you know that all I wanted was to help, and I wish the best for you.

If you read over the sentence construction of your post and the content of my original post, it will make sense to you, but never mind.
I'm not asking for encouragement for or against. I'm asking for reasoned reasons that it would make more sense to stay alive given all the information, which I haven't seen or thought of yet. I argue the merits of these reasons to test their veracity. For instance, saying life is precious is not quantifiable. It's like saying I like pop tarts. The point of this post was to find a reason to live, not to die.
Your post didn't offend and/or anger me. I sometimes lack the basic social capabilities needed for polite interaction when I'm trying to solve a problem logically. I can't seem to do both at once. I have limited brain function compared to the general population, so I'm sorry if I've offended or angered you.

cicerolion · Jul 6, 2013

The two things people always say they can be thankful to have are their health and each other. I'm dying and I have no one. I actually bottomed out this summer. I reached a point of crushing hopelessness that I've never experienced before. Its kind of like how Orwell described living in a totalitarian state, like a boot stomping on my face and it never stops. Then, I realized something. I wasn't going to kill myself. I felt like I should, but I couldn't. I found that I do have this unshakable sense of hope. I can't kill myself, because it feels like, as long as I'm alive, anything is possible. I know it seems like I'm being a hopeless optimist, but that's because I am one. I see the logic in your suicide. You are right. You don't owe these people anything, and, even if you did, that wouldn't be a reason to prolong your life. Your father was not saved, and its reasonable to assume that you won't be either. I'm not exactly sure how to make the jump from where you are to where I am. I know that I felt like you are feeling, and I saw my situation the same way. I was surprised when I discovered this will to live, or will not to die. So, I guess, if you decide not to do it, then maybe you'll find you feel the same way.
All I can say to assure you is that, even though I was just as certain as you are that I had no options, when I came terms with my realization, I started looking for some kind of hope to hold on to. You really should do some research on the advancements they are making in modern medicine, especially regenerative medicine. We really are lucky to be alive in this time. There are possibilities that didn't exist before.That might seem naive, but, either way, its the only way I can live.

LeaningIntoTheMuse · Jul 6, 2013

We might as well make the best of what we have, on this earth, because you never know if there will be another life. There are many contradictory statements, but no actual proof.

Spiderpope · Jul 7, 2013

cicerolion said:
All I can say to assure you is that, even though I was just as certain as you are that I had no options, when I came terms with my realization, I started looking for some kind of hope to hold on to. You really should do some research on the advancements they are making in modern medicine, especially regenerative medicine. We really are lucky to be alive in this time. There are possibilities that didn't exist before.That might seem naive, but, either way, its the only way I can live.

It's not naive to have hope. And if you don't mind me saying so, i find your attitude to be the epitome of what humanity should be; to continue, whatever the odds.

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