Friendship and expectations (rambling)

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Tealeaf

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Sometimes I poke around online niches for loners, people with anxiety, etc, where I think I could meet people for chat. In many of them (and I'm not talking about ALL) I feel like people have unrealistic expectations of others. That they'll find someone available all day to cheer them up, that the people they talk to will be lifelong friends, etc. It feels like people aren't looking for friendship but some kind of personal savior from their depression or their boredom, and it always seems to get taken incredibly personally if there's not much to talk about and conversation dies out.

I dislike rejection and failure as much as anyone, and some ways of rejecting someone are just rude, but something about what I see in these people makes me uncomfortable. I feel like I have to perform and feel things I couldn't possibly feel for a stranger in order to be "good enough", and in a place for people who already don't fit in and aren't good at performing at that. Like I have to provide some grand gesture of love and friendship to them that couldn't possibly be genuine, as we're strangers to each other. Or that it's not about me, it's about what I do for them.

So, I stopped talking to people there.

Conversely, I've had very good luck in MMOs, which aren't focused on finding friendship but have a social element. In three months I've made three new friends out of about a dozen people I'm around regularly, and they're all very laid-back about talking and getting to know each other. There's no real expectation beyond to be friendly, and if we don't see each other again after killing a dragon together it's not taken as a slight against them. I even wound up introducing people to each other, joining voice chat, and helping new players progress in the game because it was so friendly.

This is something I think is often discussed, though without a lot of detail, when it comes to making connections: being too needy and angsty vs letting people have some space. I suspect one of the people I talk to does have depression based off hints he's dropped, but I also don't feel like he's pushing responsibility for it on me. It's not like other people I talked to, who'd complain to me for hours every day if allowed but would never have time to help me or just talk as friends, which made me shy away from people who seemed to be looking for an outlet. I'm not expected to somehow make it all okay for him and work a miracle, even if I want to see him happier. If we see each other we have fun and talk a bit. If not, that's okay, too.

On the flip side, I found that focusing less on doing something about my own depression--getting more friends, getting a new job, falling in love--let me focus on who I was meeting for who they were. To focus on writing whether or not I wound up published, and even if I'm a nobody in real-life right now. That's something one of my online friends had told me, that looking too hard for something too special was preventing me from enjoying things for what they were. Example: A mutual friend who didn't talk much (still doesn't) and was very shy, but who was also trying very hard to make new friends. For them, trying at all was a big deal and it became easier to like them for that when I focused less on how we could get closer and just let things go at their own pace.

I hope I was never like those people to him or anyone else. If I was... that's something I'm glad is getting left behind.

I wonder, though, is this just the type of people forums for anxiety or making friends attract? People who are looking to skip past the work of a friendship like getting to know someone, figuring out who is and isn't compatible, etc, and skip straight to the rewards? Is there any way to mitigate it and help people find and make healthier connections? It just looks like wounded people using other wounded people to cover their own wounds (and possibly wounding each other further), and some scarred but mellow people taking what comes their way.
 
Tealeaf said:
It feels like people aren't looking for friendship but some kind of personal savior from their depression or their boredom, and it always seems to get taken incredibly personally if there's not much to talk about and conversation dies out.

I don't know. I mean, I don't always have something to talk about with my offline, real-world friends either. Sometimes I don't do a lot or aren't in a good mood and I really don't have much to say....it doesn't mean that I don't want to talk to them anymore or that it's a rejection, a failure. It just means I have nothing to discuss TODAY. I might tomorrow, or next week, or whenever I get more things to talk about. If a conversation dies out, it doesn't mean it has to die out for good.

Tealeaf said:
It's not like other people I talked to, who'd complain to me for hours every day if allowed but would never have time to help me or just talk as friends, which made me shy away from people who seemed to be looking for an outlet. I'm not expected to somehow make it all okay for him and work a miracle, even if I want to see him happier.

Hmm. I hope I haven't come off this way in my own online conversations, and I hope I haven't lost anyone over it - only complaining to someone and not simply talking to them as friends. I'd like to get to know them more, not just as someone to vent to. Unfortunately I can really go on a bender of complaining if I am in a bad mood. That's one of the reasons I try to just keep silent on those days and tend to let messages and emails wait until I am in a more talkative mood.
 
TheSkaFish said:
I don't know. I mean, I don't always have something to talk about with my offline, real-world friends either. Sometimes I don't do a lot or aren't in a good mood and I really don't have much to say....it doesn't mean that I don't want to talk to them anymore or that it's a rejection, a failure. It just means I have nothing to discuss TODAY. I might tomorrow, or next week, or whenever I get more things to talk about. If a conversation dies out, it doesn't mean it has to die out for good.

I don't expect it, either... sometimes no one is really doing anything and in a funk, so we don't do or talk about much outside of what's going on in our game. It's weird, but it's not like it means anything in itself. Everyone goes through patches where nothing is happening.

This is more about people I don't know, though. Like they'll PM me and mention how they're upset that people always stop responding after 3-4 messages or something, and it puts me in an awkward position where I feel like I'm obligated to not be that person even though there's just no way to guarantee it. What if we decide after 3-4 messages we don't even like each other that much? How do they know that's not how one or both of us will feel?

Not much is bringing strangers together in most cases so it's a gamble when it comes to where things are going. But it seems to me like there are some places were many have enormous expectations and it makes for communities that feel unhealthy to me.

TheSkaFish said:
Hmm. I hope I haven't come off this way in my own online conversations, and I hope I haven't lost anyone over it - only complaining to someone and not simply talking to them as friends. I'd like to get to know them more, not just as someone to vent to. Unfortunately I can really go on a bender of complaining if I am in a bad mood. That's one of the reasons I try to just keep silent on those days and tend to let messages and emails wait until I am in a more talkative mood.

I complain of this but I mean really extreme cases. Every day, every time we talked, for the couple of hours we'd talk. I'd try talking about something else and they'd briefly acknowledge it, then keep going.
 
Balance is important yeah. I've met tons of good friends through the years from playing mmos and competitive cs. Same kind of dynamic between us as what you deacribe in your posts. Friendships slowly build up over multiple years. Friends that I could message any time and we could catch up or meet up if I'm in the area. These are decent friendships but they aren't really all that fulfilling compared to my closer friendships. They are just slightly better than nothing.

Recently I've kind of realized how much time I've wasted on these games. They are a major distraction when it comes to being productive and working towards your goals in life. I'm starting to realize how much damage video games have caused me. I probably won't be letting my kids play them. At least not any multi-player games.
 
I'm curious, what does MMO mean? I'm really bad with abbreviations :D

It's true that real friendships happen over time. They need to be cultivated and nurtured to build up a level of trust. But it's easy to go for instant gratification in our one-click commodity culture and then wonder why people disappoint us.
I have maybe 4-5 people in real life that I count as true friends - like sisters to me. I've known them all for many years (one since 1976!). When we see each other again, we easily pick up the conversation right where we left off, even if it's been many months or sometimes years since we last talked.
It may sound weird, but I've personally found I'm much happier when I have lower expectations of people in terms of friendship or relationship potential. If we hit if off, great. If not - that's ok too. Sometimes it's just nice to have interaction or a friendly chat with another human being without making it too complicated.

-Teresa
 
kamya said:
Balance is important yeah. I've met tons of good friends through the years from playing mmos and competitive cs. Same kind of dynamic between us as what you deacribe in your posts. Friendships slowly build up over multiple years. Friends that I could message any time and we could catch up or meet up if I'm in the area. These are decent friendships but they aren't really all that fulfilling compared to my closer friendships. They are just slightly better than nothing.

Recently I've kind of realized how much time I've wasted on these games. They are a major distraction when it comes to being productive and working towards your goals in life. I'm starting to realize how much damage video games have caused me. I probably won't be letting my kids play them. At least not any multi-player games.

I've never been able to suscribe to this, it sounds like blame dodging: it wasn't my fault I wasted my time, it was the video game's fault.

Most of the people I play with are doing well. The guy who started our group is a bit of a bigshot who goes on business trips to talk in front of panels. His wife plays with him and they just had their first baby. One of the married couples with children is well-off enough to spend their summers taking multiple vacations. They're all MMO players of several years or more and games did not prevent them from forming relationships or advancing their careers.

But a couple people are in very bad spots in life. It's still not gaming's fault they are where they are, no matter how much time they choose to dedicate to it.

If I spent all my free time studying and got a dozen degrees, what else could I have been doing? Would that leave me with friends and good experiences?

What else could I do besides reading, watching movies, or writing and reviewing indie fiction? None of that earns me money or advances my career, either.

SofiasMami said:
I'm curious, what does MMO mean? I'm really bad with abbreviations :D

It's true that real friendships happen over time. They need to be cultivated and nurtured to build up a level of trust. But it's easy to go for instant gratification in our one-click commodity culture and then wonder why people disappoint us.
I have maybe 4-5 people in real life that I count as true friends - like sisters to me. I've known them all for many years (one since 1976!). When we see each other again, we easily pick up the conversation right where we left off, even if it's been many months or sometimes years since we last talked.
It may sound weird, but I've personally found I'm much happier when I have lower expectations of people in terms of friendship or relationship potential. If we hit if off, great. If not - that's ok too. Sometimes it's just nice to have interaction or a friendly chat with another human being without making it too complicated.

-Teresa

I've noticed that, too. It doesn't really fix depression, but nothing ever did.

MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online game. They're games where all the players can either play together or with groups of tens of thousands on one video game world, which is just necessary for games where everyone can't fit into one.
 
Tealeaf said:
I wonder, though, is this just the type of people forums for anxiety or making friends attract? People who are looking to skip past the work of a friendship like getting to know someone, figuring out who is and isn't compatible, etc, and skip straight to the rewards?

You've sort of answered your own question there. Online communication lowers people's inhibitions while possibly not being aware of how it comes across. Without a face, a living being in front of you it's easier to idealize the other person into exactly what you want and let those expectations run amok a bit. Maybe, I don't know, I don't frequent those sort of forums (outside of ALL) for that very reason and don't engage in a lot personal messaging here... here's been a few random members I didn't recognize from any threads PM me obviously wanting to connect. Seemed like they were just spamming so I didn't reply. Rude I guess but I didn't want to get into something weird and end up being used as a sounding board/convenient shoulder, then discarded once they're feeling better (or found someone better as is so often the case).

Tealeaf said:
Is there any way to mitigate it and help people find and make healthier connections? It just looks like wounded people using other wounded people to cover their own wounds (and possibly wounding each other further), and some scarred but mellow people taking what comes their way.

Online? That makes it harder. A forum centered around other interests, creative outlets instead of friendship, social anxiety, depression. Get to know others in another capacity first. Exactly what capacity is a tough question though.. ... In my experience, not gaming forums as they do tend to be quite nasty (RPG Codex springs to mind)
 
I believe the on-line modality fosters the expectation of immediacy - NOW.
I do not always reply to texts, e-mails, or messages in immediate fashion. Sometimes, it may take me several days or even weeks before I have the time, right mindset and perhaps, the inclination to respond, depending on the subject of the conversation/message/text.

Unfortunately, some people take issue with someone who is not "immediate" and will either get bent out of shape / angry / or sad/upset. Truthfully, those reactions are really all on that person, not me. The OP is correct, it seems the lonely crowd are more sensitive when their needs are not being met. I experience loneliness and depression, I've had to make do with the tag team emotional tandem for most of my life. One thing i have learned by trial and error is to not let someone else add to my own trials and tribulations. When I'm having a rough go, I usually disappear. When I'm trudgin' along and the clouds start to break, I'm back in action. I'm akin to the tides.

I've messaged different people of both sexes here, and on other forums. 'Tis true, the folks on the other forums take it much more personally than the folks here if you do not bond after a few exchanges. Also, I've had folks stop responding to me, but I know that is their choice, for whatever reasons. I don't take it personally. And neither should you. Life is too short as it is.
 
Tealeaf said:
This is more about people I don't know, though. Like they'll PM me and mention how they're upset that people always stop responding after 3-4 messages or something, and it puts me in an awkward position where I feel like I'm obligated to not be that person even though there's just no way to guarantee it. What if we decide after 3-4 messages we don't even like each other that much? How do they know that's not how one or both of us will feel?

Not much is bringing strangers together in most cases so it's a gamble when it comes to where things are going. But it seems to me like there are some places were many have enormous expectations and it makes for communities that feel unhealthy to me.

I don't know. I think 3 or 4 messages is usually too short to really know much of anything about someone, let alone if you like them or not. They could be into all of your favorite things or have some common views with you, but in that short span of messages it just hasn't come up yet.

One thing I know that has happened to me is that when I meet someone that I am fairly sure I have a lot in common with or that there is something else that I really like about them, when I feel like they are exactly the kind of person I've always wanted to meet, it is hard for me to control my enthusiasm. It feels natural to me to get excited about them but I have to remember to dial it back, otherwise I may wind up pushing them away. It's almost counter-intuitive.

Tealeaf said:
Most of the people I play with are doing well. The guy who started our group is a bit of a bigshot who goes on business trips to talk in front of panels. His wife plays with him and they just had their first baby. One of the married couples with children is well-off enough to spend their summers taking multiple vacations. They're all MMO players of several years or more and games did not prevent them from forming relationships or advancing their careers.

I have to say I'm surprised to hear that such people have time for video games at all (or relationships), let alone time enough to play video games with any degree of skill, unless they have one of those high-paying-but-do-little jobs at their parents' company. Especially MMOs, which are notoriously time-consuming. Most professionals I have known, talked to, or whose comments I have read online have very little free time and when they do have time they are often either too exhausted to do much but watch TV, and/or getting hammered at the bar. Even then, it takes a lot less time to get wasted than it does to create a high-level MMO character.

kamya said:
Balance is important yeah. I've met tons of good friends through the years from playing mmos and competitive cs. Same kind of dynamic between us as what you deacribe in your posts. Friendships slowly build up over multiple years. Friends that I could message any time and we could catch up or meet up if I'm in the area. These are decent friendships but they aren't really all that fulfilling compared to my closer friendships. They are just slightly better than nothing.

I'm not so sure. I've met some people online that I would say I relate to far more than most people I've known in real life, especially most of the people I went to school with. In that other forum I was a part of, I met people that made me think wow, I've been waiting years to find someone like this, and they actually exist. I'd definitely like to hang out with them in real life someday. These people fill a space that would otherwise be a void in my life.

kamya said:
Recently I've kind of realized how much time I've wasted on these games. They are a major distraction when it comes to being productive and working towards your goals in life. I'm starting to realize how much damage video games have caused me. I probably won't be letting my kids play them. At least not any multi-player games.

I still like video games (although I can't recall playing much more than a little Smash Bros Melee this year), but I do see how they can be distracting. In fact, I ultimately decided to donate my copy of Counter-Strike: Source to my local library. I didn't really play competitively but I sunk a lot of time into it. If I was going to play games that much then it would have been better for me to immerse myself in something with a story, so I would have at least maybe gotten ideas for stories of my own.

SofiasMami said:
It's true that real friendships happen over time. They need to be cultivated and nurtured to build up a level of trust. But it's easy to go for instant gratification in our one-click commodity culture and then wonder why people disappoint us.

Yeah, I agree with this. Friendships do happen over time. It took years to cultivate my own lasting friendships in real life, so I imagine online it's no different since online people are still people, just like those we meet offline. I too have often felt that in the age of convenience, where things can be done so quickly and it has become the norm, if some of it carries over into how we look for interpersonal connections - mostly as it relates to seeking friends or romantic partners. I feel like more and more people are becoming like, if you don't click with them right away, you are written off as having no potential. But there are some people that are either inexperienced at making connections, cautious, or for whatever other reason, very slow to connect. I can be like that. And I feel that people like that are written off much too quickly.
 
TheSkaFish said:
I don't know. I think 3 or 4 messages is usually too short to really know much of anything about someone, let alone if you like them or not. They could be into all of your favorite things or have some common views with you, but in that short span of messages it just hasn't come up yet.

One thing I know that has happened to me is that when I meet someone that I am fairly sure I have a lot in common with or that there is something else that I really like about them, when I feel like they are exactly the kind of person I've always wanted to meet, it is hard for me to control my enthusiasm. It feels natural to me to get excited about them but I have to remember to dial it back, otherwise I may wind up pushing them away. It's almost counter-intuitive.

I agree that 3-4 messages isn't a lot, even if they're pretty long. I think it's possible to get a general sense but you never know early on, let alone right away. Maybe they admit on the 5th that they're with one of those churches that burns things on people's lawns in this day and age. You just don't know.

It's hard for me to control my enthusiasm, too.

TheSkaFish said:
I have to say I'm surprised to hear that such people have time for video games at all (or relationships), let alone time enough to play video games with any degree of skill, unless they have one of those high-paying-but-do-little jobs at their parents' company. Especially MMOs, which are notoriously time-consuming. Most professionals I have known, talked to, or whose comments I have read online have very little free time and when they do have time they are often either too exhausted to do much but watch TV, and/or getting hammered at the bar. Even then, it takes a lot less time to get wasted than it does to create a high-level MMO character.

It doesn't sound like much to me, unless someone is a top CEO or an ER doctor. A couple hours on an MMO a night after seeing your family and having dinner is enough for casual raiding. My brother is an engineer who lives in the house my grandparents raised my father in, and while he doesn't play MMOs (he's into Legos, among other things) he has enough time that he could play one.

But rather than debate it myself, I'll include threads and quotes about having a "normal life" and playing MMOs that tell the truth for those who are interested in knowing it. You reap what you sow with gaming and scapegoat culture is one of the biggest problems in society imho.



Married man, father of two, working full time.

Built an FC to level 8, bought house, stables, all mod-cons, all solo.

Got all crafters and gatherers to 50.

WAR, PLD, SCH, SMN, WHM, all to 50.

WHM has relic up to Atma.

So yeah, it can be done. The wife has a MNK to 50, which we recently transferred over to my server.

I go to work.

Kids go to school.

Wife cleans, then plays.

Picks up kids from school.

Homework, meals, etc.

I get home.

Playtime, TV with kids.

Bath and bed the kids.

Evening meal with the wife.

Play for a few hours, she reads/watches honeysuckle on laptop.

Bed.

Weekends its either fishing with the kids, going out on daytrips, or if they go to grandma's house, we take it turns playing - me Sat, her Sun.

If you want it to work, then plan properly. :)

And some from the dreaded World of Warcraft.



My dad was gifted the game by his brother who played in vanilla, his wife started playing around Woltk. My dad got me hooked when I was 17, about 5 years ago. He also got my mum hooked at that time, our main source of contact is actually rID, my two brothers now play along with my boyfriend they started around cata, my youngest brother got his girlfriend to start playing last month and I hear she's loving it, my elder brothers girlfriend is one of those girls who thinks adults who play games are immature.

The results of merely a short search. However, some would like for people to believe that playing WoW really does make you a loser, unattractive to women, and incapable of getting a girlfriend, because it allows them to deflect blame away from themselves and onto WoW for the fact that they can't.

People do use video games as escapism, which sometimes people need, and which is fine occasionally. People need to own their vices though, whether it's food, video games, sex, or anything else. Not make themselves out to be someone who was hurt by something not even alive, let alone malicious.

If you can't control yourself with food because you eat to escape your problems, it's not food's fault. If you can't control yourself with gaming because you play games to escape your problems, it's not the game's fault.
 
Tealeaf said:
I agree that 3-4 messages isn't a lot, even if they're pretty long. I think it's possible to get a general sense but you never know early on, let alone right away. Maybe they admit on the 5th that they're with one of those churches that burns things on people's lawns in this day and age. You just don't know.

It's hard for me to control my enthusiasm, too.

Or maybe you trade pictures on the 5th message and they are gorgeous, and they like your favorite band or they play not just one but several of the same games as you, and they tell you about some cool dreams they've had, or that they play guitar and draw and write short stories and poetry, and you never would have known had you said after the 4th message, "meh, I don't really like this person that much".

I know what you mean though. And you're right, you just don't know and you can't be too careful. I just felt like offering a sunny counterexample :)

Tealeaf said:
It doesn't sound like much to me, unless someone is a top CEO or an ER doctor. A couple hours on an MMO a night after seeing your family and having dinner is enough for casual raiding. My brother is an engineer who lives in the house my grandparents raised my father in, and while he doesn't play MMOs (he's into Legos, among other things) he has enough time that he could play one.

But rather than debate it myself, I'll include threads and quotes about having a "normal life" and playing MMOs that tell the truth for those who are interested in knowing it. You reap what you sow with gaming and scapegoat culture is one of the biggest problems in society imho.

I believe you, I just find it a little hard to believe. Like I said the professionals I've encountered all have very little free time and when they do they have very little energy. A lot of my friends game but are not in highly professional, well-paid jobs such as accountants and finance people, engineers, or lawyers. They have time, but people with the higher-caliber jobs I've met usually don't. My brother is an accountant, he pretty much gets up in the morning, goes to work, comes back home, and goes to bed. And that's it. Even the weekends aren't safe.

And I still love LEGOs, as well as several other types of toys - I haven't outgrown them and I think it's cool that your brother likes them. However if I were an engineer, the only toys I imagine myself playing with would be bottles of liquor and cigarettes. Maybe it's just my exaggerated imagination but it's always seemed like a very stressful job to me. And since I like to learn about creative things I imagine it wouldn't be too much fun for me to be in a very left-brained environment all day.

Tealeaf said:
The results of merely a short search. However, some would like for people to believe that playing WoW really does make you a loser, unattractive to women, and incapable of getting a girlfriend, because it allows them to deflect blame away from themselves and onto WoW for the fact that they can't.

No, I don't think WoW or any other games make anyone an unattractive loser who can't get a girlfriend. Like I said, a lot of my friends play those games and are in relationships, and we even take it a step further - we play pencil and paper RPGs. We keep it old school, I'm in no less than 3 of those right now.

Funnily enough, one of the most interesting and most attractive women I have ever met also played both RPG-style video games, and D&D as well. She was one of those that I was talking about, that I met online and I had a lot in common with her and had to control my enthusiasm with when we talked, but yeah. She totally smashed the stereotype. I'm glad to see more acceptance for this kind of stuff and that "nerd-shaming" is on the decline. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a gamer at all.
 
Hmm. I wasn't really trying to solely blame video games for my problems or anything like that. And yeah, a lot of the friends I've made are successful in their own life.

It's just that for me personally, they are enabling. When things are bad and I have no motivation and i have a hard time forcing myself to be productive, video games have been there to prolong that experience for months or years at a time. Maybe something else would have served the same purpose if I never played video games, who knows.

I know how dangerous they are for me personally and I have to be really careful and watch myself anymore when I do play. And I see the behavior in a lot of other people too really. It can be a very self sabotaging hobby.

I've made a lot of friends and I still talk to a lot of them, and I visit with them if I can. They are good friends really. I just don't enjoy them as much as someone that I'm able to get closer to. They are just a kind of nice little extra that isn't really needed but you can appreciate that they are there
 
I play games and still manage to do reasonably well with coursework. Can’t imagine never being able to, a bit like never listening to music again.

MMOs might be different, since you have to be 'on call' for your guild which seems like it would be a major intrusion when there are other commitments.
 
beautiful loser said:
"I'm curious, what does MMO mean? I'm really bad with abbreviations Big Grin"

Get with it, granny ;) :p Just kidding, Teresa...you know you are one of my favorites!! :)

:D :D Hey, I'm not that old! :D

-Teresa
 
TheSkaFish said:
Or maybe you trade pictures on the 5th message and they are gorgeous, and they like your favorite band or they play not just one but several of the same games as you, and they tell you about some cool dreams they've had, or that they play guitar and draw and write short stories and poetry, and you never would have known had you said after the 4th message, "meh, I don't really like this person that much".

I know what you mean though. And you're right, you just don't know and you can't be too careful. I just felt like offering a sunny counterexample :)

Also a possibility. :p

TheSkaFish said:
I believe you, I just find it a little hard to believe. Like I said the professionals I've encountered all have very little free time and when they do they have very little energy. A lot of my friends game but are not in highly professional, well-paid jobs such as accountants and finance people, engineers, or lawyers. They have time, but people with the higher-caliber jobs I've met usually don't. My brother is an accountant, he pretty much gets up in the morning, goes to work, comes back home, and goes to bed. And that's it. Even the weekends aren't safe.

And I still love LEGOs, as well as several other types of toys - I haven't outgrown them and I think it's cool that your brother likes them. However if I were an engineer, the only toys I imagine myself playing with would be bottles of liquor and cigarettes. Maybe it's just my exaggerated imagination but it's always seemed like a very stressful job to me. And since I like to learn about creative things I imagine it wouldn't be too much fun for me to be in a very left-brained environment all day.

I've seen it go both ways, depending on the employer as well as the employee's interest in hours...

Sorry if I seem harsh, but people dodging responsibility and bending the truth when convenient is a sore spot for me. I've spent a lot of my life cleaning up after them and seen people I love hurt by it. Doesn't matter to me if it's "only" gaming, it's still lies and stereotypes designed to dodge blame, put some down, and raise others up.

TheSkaFish said:
No, I don't think WoW or any other games make anyone an unattractive loser who can't get a girlfriend. Like I said, a lot of my friends play those games and are in relationships, and we even take it a step further - we play pencil and paper RPGs. We keep it old school, I'm in no less than 3 of those right now.

Funnily enough, one of the most interesting and most attractive women I have ever met also played both RPG-style video games, and D&D as well. She was one of those that I was talking about, that I met online and I had a lot in common with her and had to control my enthusiasm with when we talked, but yeah. She totally smashed the stereotype. I'm glad to see more acceptance for this kind of stuff and that "nerd-shaming" is on the decline. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a gamer at all.

Lucky! There don't seem to be many around here at all unless I want to go further into the city, which is a long trip and a nightmare to get around in general. The number of shut-ins who care for nothing else is pretty small, and with some of them I think it's more of an "offbeat writer" thing to stay mostly private, anyway...

One of my friends growing up was a very outgoing and popular girl who later did some modeling. We played N64 at night in the basement in high school, watched cheesy horror movies and judged them, and she later became a big fan of the Fable series on her own. She said she was interested in pen-and-paper RPGs a couple times but never found a group.

Funnily enough, no one would think to judge reading as a hobby. They wouldn't even ask if you're reading Pride and Prejudice or 50 Shades of Grey...

ardour said:
I play games and still manage to do reasonably well with coursework. Can’t imagine never being able to, a bit like never listening to music again.

MMOs might be different, since you have to be 'on call' for your guild which seems like it would be a major intrusion when there are other commitments.

False.

No one in my guild is "on call". We just bring in players in similar timezones who like to play evenings and plan ahead of time based on availability. Very few people have anything urgent going on at 10pm at home that makes it difficult for them to plan to log in the next night, and most people can predict what they'll be doing at night a couple days in the future.

No one has problems picking up their kid from karate practice before trying a new dungeon out (the spouse at home plus the rest of us talk and check out other stuff) or taking a night off with their spouse (we do things that don't require a full group, or get a temporary replacement). The parents have even paused to go attend to their children if they woke up at night. They don't ignore them to play and we don't try to make them.

The number of players who are listening all day for news of how their guild is progressing on their quest to be world first, ready to run home from school or work to jump in, is almost imperceptibly small. It's far from the norm.

Players don't even have to join a guild, but many do because it gives them a regular crowd of other like-minded players to turn to when they need a group or want to socialize.
 
Tealeaf said:
Sorry if I seem harsh, but people dodging responsibility and bending the truth when convenient is a sore spot for me. I've spent a lot of my life cleaning up after them and seen people I love hurt by it. Doesn't matter to me if it's "only" gaming, it's still lies and stereotypes designed to dodge blame, put some down, and raise others up.

It's okay. You haven't attacked me for any views I may have, so no worries. I trust you have your reasons for your beliefs on this. I am...more moderate on this I guess. I think there are some times we can blame outside forces, luck, or something along those lines. But I think other times, taking responsibility is the only way to get anything solved. For me it would depend on the individual issue. Sometimes I feel it's a little of both.

Tealeaf said:
Lucky! There don't seem to be many around here at all unless I want to go further into the city, which is a long trip and a nightmare to get around in general. The number of shut-ins who care for nothing else is pretty small, and with some of them I think it's more of an "offbeat writer" thing to stay mostly private, anyway...

One of my friends growing up was a very outgoing and popular girl who later did some modeling. We played N64 at night in the basement in high school, watched cheesy horror movies and judged them, and she later became a big fan of the Fable series on her own. She said she was interested in pen-and-paper RPGs a couple times but never found a group.

That's kind of how I view it, a form of writing, a form of practicing creating characters and stories. I like to get in character and really immerse myself in it, but it takes a while for me to find my character's voice. Also, I feel it's just a way to have fun at the same time. Two of my three are Star Wars and one is D&D/Dungeon World. It is lucky for me to have my group that likes to do this, because if I just wanted to play, I don't know where I'd go. We like "nerdy" stuff (I don't even like calling it "nerdy" because I don't like labeling and limiting it to that, like you said - stereotypes) but the truth is, we're fairly normal guys, not the cliche shut-in. I've never really viewed us as Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

Your friend sounds like she was/is a pretty neat person and you sound like you had some pretty fun times together. Thanks for sharing your story :)
 

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