Flatness

It was somewhat difficult for me to decide what sub-forum I should post this in. In the end, I think the Social Problems sub-forum is broad enough to encompass the issue as a whole. I don't know exactly when this problem started but I know I've become a lot more aware of it lately and I don't know for sure what it's exact causes are although I have a few strong suspicions about what they are.

The issue comes down to this emotional state of flatness that I can't seem to shake. It's hard to describe but in a social environment it basically translates to me often having not much to say or finding it difficult to loosen up and make really fun conversation. All too often, I catch myself zoning out in the middle of a group conversation and not being a part of it in anyway. I feel like my whole vibe must come across as really off to a lot of people. It's like when they're having a conversation, they've all tuned themselves to a frequency that I can't tune to and everything I do ends up feeling wrong to me.

I wish I knew how to get rid of this flatness for good. It happens whenever I drink with a friend of mine, something about his energy wakes me up and makes me fun again. But he's busy and I haven't heard from him since he got back from being married in Hawaii. When I was overseas I managed to get sort of semi get rid of it for a while but it came back.

I think the main causes are down to a few things:

1. Lack of success with women. This is like a hole in the bucket that is draining my confidence. And I know that if things don't change soon that this will get worse. It makes it harder and harder to relate to people my age when they've all had more experience than me with this as well. I just feel like I'll never be normal sometimes.

2. My interests involve reading a lot about history and international relations and I think that this is something which is really difficult for a lot of people in my age group to relate to and I think it can also put me into really serious moods. Plus it means that I'm not always up on the play with some of the interests of my own generation or I don't relate to them well. I'm not going to give up on what I do though because it's important to me but I need to be mindful of how it affects me and be careful about who I bring it up with.

3. I feel like I haven't utilized the first half of my 20s as I should have (next to no intimacy with girls in this period) and spent too much time isolated from many people my age. It's really hard to just overcome the regrets I have about that time. I was at a party last night and one of the lesbians who lives at the flat decided she'd put make-up on me and one of her friends helped out. Obviously I didn't mention this to her but it was such a nice feeling to have female hands touching me, even in a non-sexual way.

I'm really hoping that I do get accepted into the NZ Navy and that this transforms me into who I want to be. I have to get rid of this emotional flatness before it costs me anything more.

You know I kinda feel you about the flatness feeling you're talking about. Similar to some of your root problems, inability to relate to people and the things they take interest in or talk about is a major bane to my social interactions with people and sometimes it makes me feel like a real loser. I try very much not to think about it just so I won't feel so sucky about myself.

Like you said, sometimes you'd zone out in the middle of a conversation and I tend to do that too. I realised that these were people I had to spend less time with, and when I started to avoid them more, I felt bad lesser and lesser. I don't think it is to say that there is anything wrong with me. I think it's just finding the right people or those who are able to excite you or get you on the same wavelength to the point where just being around them makes you feel good.

I really hope that as you continue on in this journey in life, you'll meet more people who will be attuned to what interests you or how you're like so that you won't feel that flatness feeling over and over again. Of course meeting a woman to be intimate with or even just having more female friends might help you feel better, but I feel like that sizzle will soon fade off as soon as you realise you don't have much in common with them either. Just something that came through my mind and speaking from experience. Who knows how it'll actually be for you when you meet more of us in real life from the opposite gender. Nevertheless, I always wish you the best, you know that.

I do wonder as I was reading your post. How do you feel or think the NZ Navy will transform you? In what ways and how will it be beneficial? I always think we can't know until we try it out and find out for ourselves but nothing wrong with anticipating it a little, eh?

I'm always here to give you my best wishes and I really hope that things turn out to be better for you. You'd definitely deserve it as I've seen you put in so much effort from before and I am looking forward to seeing you achieve all your goals. Don't you ever give up. *hugs*

Not flat at all by my estimation. What was that like 5 well thought out paragraphs? Seems pretty good to me

The path to the solution of your problem starts from the reason number 1 that you gave. It also leads to the root of your problem. I can definitely relate to this problem, and answering this will also answer my question.

Paraiyar said:

1. Lack of success with women. This is like a hole in the bucket that is draining my confidence. And I know that if things don't change soon that this will get worse. It makes it harder and harder to relate to people my age when they've all had more experience than me with this as well. I just feel like I'll never be normal sometimes.

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So lets say A and B want to make friends. Lets say they are guys and they want to make female friends. Thus, both of them will have some expectations. Now, A has been successful in making female friends and B has been a huge failure. Here A will find it relatively easy to achieve resonance with people, due to his success. But the reason why B will have difficulty is not his past failure alone. Its a combination of his failure and expectations.
The combination of failure and expectations is equal to expectations mixed with failure, meaning that you want (expect) something, but feel that you will fail.

This concludes that the two factors responsible here are 1. failure 2. expectations.

As it is obvious that you can do nothing about the failure that you have already received, the thing you can focus on is your expectations. During a seminar on entrepreneurship, I learned that when a company is suffering from a loss, it is advisable for it to reach the break even (no-profit no-loss) condition first, before it targets huge profits, and thus should invest more carefully.

Can you do one thing for some time period: Getting rid of all the expectations of the conclusions of a conversations that you encounter? When you meet a woman, whom it will be necessary to talk to, don't expect an outcome. That the conversation will be good, or that it will be a disaster. Just converse. Even if you have a little amount of hope, it will affect you.
How long should you do keep doing it?
You won't even know that you reached that level when you can easily talk to people without making them bored.
YES, many of your conversations will end up badly, but look, you weren't expecting good outcomes either. You were just talking.

Paraiyar said:

2. My interests involve reading a lot about history and international relations and I think that this is something which is really difficult for a lot of people in my age group to relate to and I think it can also put me into really serious moods. Plus it means that I'm not always up on the play with some of the interests of my own generation or I don't relate to them well. I'm not going to give up on what I do though because it's important to me but I need to be mindful of how it affects me and be careful about who I bring it up with.

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You are saying that you want to have great conversations with people. Atleast good conversations. But about what? The normal things or the things that you are interested in? If its the second one, then you should consider that everyone will not be interested in talking back to you in that. If it is the first one, then I assume that you have a problem in talking like them, the common things. This problem can be solved by again: Removing all kind of expectations about the type of outcome you will get at the end of the conversation.

Paraiyar said:

3. I feel like I haven't utilized the first half of my 20s as I should have

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You are wrong here. Not sure about the early 20s but about utilization. You have invested your time in reading. You have your own youtube channel (great because yours is more than those prank videos or reaction videos).
You read, then share it to people. So I guess, you have utilized your time in something for yourself, which is a good thing.

Paraiyar said:

(next to no intimacy with girls in this period) and spent too much time isolated from many people my age. It's really hard to just overcome the regrets I have about that time. I was at a party last night and one of the lesbians who lives at the flat decided she'd put make-up on me and one of her friends helped out. Obviously I didn't mention this to her but it was such a nice feeling to have female hands touching me, even in a non-sexual way.

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I never had any female friends, but I still feel that they are better in providing emotional support (not all of them and may not be to a good level, but still).
You can see how you have a few friends, which means that there is nothing in you (as a quality) stopping you from meeting people. Its just that every time you fail in a conversation, you add it to your list of failures, making yourself more negative. THAT is stopping you.


One more thing I learned is that to get people interested in you, you should try to be interested in them.
I once decided to do an experiment. While walking to the college, I looked into the eyes of a girl passing by. The only thing that was running through my mind was, "Give me a smile. Give me a smile." And she looked at me with an angry face. (the face they make when they encounter people who are jerks).
Next I tried something else. I sat on a bench, relaxed, did some breathing exercises, felt happy and went again. I was so relaxed, and happy that a smile came on my face naturally. (My smile is creepy by the way). Still, the smile was from the heart. And when a girl passed by, I gave that smile, with real emotions. And after a second, she gave me a smile too, for 2 seconds and kept walking. I was so amazed to know that it wasn't my weird face that was causing these problems.

If you want people to be interested in you. Talk to them from you heart. When you say, "How are you?" You should actually feel the desire to know whether she/he is actually fine or not. This will do wonders for you. Try it.

Paraiyar, I'll go out on a limb here, but I think I might be able to give you some help in being more noticeable with the opposite sex. Understand, I'm an extrovert and, in some cases, an extreme one, so this is what has worked for me.

Some of this might sound like rubbish, total honeysuckle and some women will think I'm full of it, but here goes...

"Obviously I didn't mention this to her but it was such a nice feeling to have female hands touching me, even in a non-sexual way."

That right there is one of the main things that has gotten me closer to women. Touch...and not is in grabby, piggish way. It has to be subtle and make a woman feel comfortable around you.

Most people like being touched, hell even animals do, as your pet bird, cat and/or dog will come up to you and want you to rub/pet them. Same with people, whether they admit it or not.

What I mean, if you are talking to a girl and agree with them on any topic, touch her on the arm and say something like - "I thought it was only me who thought that way", or "Exactly!" or whatever phrase to show agreement. Make it natural when you do that. Brush off the lint clinging to her shirt, wipe a pen mark from her arm, "let me see your nail polish" and reach out for her hand, tell her she has a bit of coffee on the side of her mouth and just reach over and wipe it away. I've never had a woman pull away and say "don't do that" (maybe I'm lucky, but I've always been told I'm easy to be around...again, acting natural, and that's just how I am).

I'm very touchy, feely with my co-worker, K. I can just about touch K. any way I want. It all started when I saw a piece of mascara below her eye. I told her to take her glasses off and I removed it. Now, she will ask me every morning if she has mascara on her face. Sometimes, there isn't and I will let her know she's clean. Then, even if there isn't a spec on her, I will pretend some is there and "remove it." She likes when I do that for her.

Also, while we are talking, I'll reach over and brush aside a strand of hair that is dangling over her glasses and continue with the conversation. She smiles every time I do it and thanks me for 'looking out for her." Again, it's subtle and the conversation continues to go forward. Now, it's nothing for her to ask me massage her back or feet during one of our breaks. She told me, over a year go, she would never let a guy massage her feet. Yeah, okay. That subtle touch has gone a LONG way.

BTW, learn how to give her a good, 2-3 minute hand massage and she'll be putty in your hands Just kidding...sort of.

I've noticed it's best to act naturally around a women, to the point you treat them like they are one of the guys. Be sarcastic, make a crack or two, (pop culture references will help) but never something they will take personally, of course. But, also give them a compliment too...a piece of jewelry they are wearing, her nail polish, the way she's wearing her hair. It's like a push/pull type of thing. Again, that is what has worked for me.

Management just hired a new woman for our department. I'll call her J. She's mid-40's and has a very nice figure and, of course, the guys on the floor all want to talk to her and, some, tell her how pretty she is...she doesn't like it, she hears that a lot...just guys trying to get into her pants.

Me, I've been training J. the past two weeks and basically have been acting normal around her, but also toss in a jab here and there. She says I'm mean, but laughs a lot and has a good sense of humor. By the same token, she has also remembered the little things I've said I found attractive on her...she wore her hair in a librarian style, pinned up look. Told her I love that look and it goes so well with her glasses...that was it, I changed the subject. Also, I'm going to sound so weird here...I told her I liked her little belly roll (I like woman that have a little chunk to them) and that I like that on a woman. She lifted her shirt the other day and I happen to turn and see the hem above her belly and she made some comment about wishing I didn't see her belly fat. I said "I actually like that little belly roll of yours. I think it's sexy." (Hey, I like imperfections on a woman). I quickly changed the subject to let her know I'm not dwelling on her body and being a typical guy.

So, two days ago, J. came in, with her hair up and a shirt that was kinda short, length-wise. I told her I liked her hair and she said "and I also wore this shorter shirt since you like my belly roll...haha." Proceeded to flash me her belly. So, in two weeks she remembered two things I casually said about her and has been quite flirty around me. Not to mention, I used a bit of subtle touch on her and she has never pulled away. In fact, now she stands with her boobs mashed against my arms when we are using the same measuring device...not that I'm complaining, mind you

Believe me, I'm nothing to look at, but I know how to tease, flirt and joke with a woman to the point that it's natural. That can be picked up with just trying, more or less. You just have to have confidence and not come across as trying too hard.

Again, this isn't a "hey look at me" type of thing, its just what has worked for me in the past. And older coworker told me this a long time ago, when I was in my early twenties. I didn't believe him, but I tried it and it has done fairly well for me and helped develop my personality and made me more open to talking to women. Now, it might not work in a club or party situation, but it has worked for me, when it's a girl I know I'll be around quite often, such a college, work, volunteering, etc.

One of the best parts of a relationship, in my opinion, is when you first start talking about what attracted you to her and her to you. I've always heard - my boyish charm, they said I was smart, my sarcasm/wit, how I remembered things that most guys would forget and how I complimented them on something they never heard before (my coworker, K, has amazing hips...I love sexy hips...and have told her she has sexy hips and gently caress them...haha She said not one guy has ever told her that. She always tells me I'm different from most guys). Again, be a little different from the next guy and it might help your cause.

BTW, Paraiyar, you are a bright guy and like a lot of guys/women on here, you read a lot. Maybe not now, but trust me as you get older it will be to your advantage to be book smart...a lot of women dig that in a guy. Don't ever feel bad that most people your age don't get you. I felt that way too, when I was in my early 20's. I like the person I've become now.

I'm done, and I'm sure I'll get a ton of backlash from other members, but this is what has worked for me and as of a few days ago still does. I wish you luck...I know you can better yourself and gain more confidence. You just have to go for broke and try.

Thanks everyone for the responses. If the forum still allowed multi-quote replies then I'd reply to everyone but do be aware that I have taken note of your posts.

I really need to push myself to socialize more and to stop myself from zoning out when I'm doing it.

You are way overvaluing women.

Menorahman said:

You are way overvaluing women.

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To be fair, this problem goes a bit beyond them.

It's easier to build a base on a flat surface.

Paraiyar said:

Menorahman said:

You are way overvaluing women.

Click to expand...

To be fair, this problem goes a bit beyond them.

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I can relate to that feeling although thankfully less so at the moment...I guess amongst the possible causes could be medication....Valium is notorious for creating emotional numbness ( unless you live in Glasgow and swallow them by the bottle full and then I understand they're really quite nice ) Depression I think has a tendency to overcompensate for emotional sensitivity and some medications can help...other approaches may be simply non sexual physical contact Cuddling is becoming quite popular in the UK working out at around £40-50 an hour for a professional cuddler( May the Lord have mercy on my soul) frankly I would prefer to hire a mildly incompetent cuddler it'd probably be more fun and less expensive...