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michael2

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While reading up on relationship advice I came across the whole "Bad Boy vs Nice Guy" thing.

Now what surprised me was how almost every single article encouraged men to behave as a 'bad boy' to attract women and completely fulfill their 'manliness'.  Living like a 'nice guy' was frowned upon and laughed at, and generally brushed off as unattractive as well as feminine.  Comment sections of most articles were filled with self hating 'nice guys' vowing to be more like 'bad boys'.

I feel both are negative stereotypes of men.  

In this movie clip Amber Heard says men group women into 4 groups:  Mothers, virgins, sluts, and bitches.



Is there any woman out there who finds any of those 4 groups flattering?  Or do you see them as I see the bad boy and nice guy thing, as negative stereotypes of a gender?

Women, what if you were constantly told that you were acting too much like the 'mother' stereotype, and you needed to start acting more like a '*****' to attract men?  Thats how it feels when men are constantly being told to be 'bad boys'.

Further, there really is no such thing as 'bad boys' and 'nice guys', only bad men (those who would make bad partners) and good men (those who would make good partners). 

 When reading through supposed traits of bad boys and nice guys I found myself to exhibit a near 50/50 split between the two.  That means like most people Im a complex human being, and you cant put a simple label on me.  Of course my passive personality will get me labeled as a 'nice guy', though, because people like to label others without ever getting to really know them.
 
What if I'm a mom AND a *****?

Who the fresia cares what a person is labeled as....I prefer to get to know a person and go from there. Labels are just excuses, whether you put them on yourself or you put them on someone else.
 
Most stereotypes are negative.

ML: Totally agree ....the world needs to stop with trying to label everything and everyone

Expecting that is as reasonable/possible as wanting the planet to stop spinning, or for the sun to stop shining. Be really great if people didn't fight/make war. Not going to happen.

Sure someone could Google this & prove me wrong, but I've not seen a badboy complain about this dynamic, only countless nice guys.

People are attracted to what they're attracted to. Nice guys trying to shame women into finding them attractive is the same as obese women trying to shame men into finding them sexy. Not going to work. Not the whole picture, but there's a degree of biological determinism going on here. People don't have alot of control over who they want to bang. Probably part of the reason "praying the gay away" doesn't work most of the time. How much say do you really have over what makes your dick hard?

mic: Further, there really is no such thing as 'bad boys' and 'nice guys', only bad men (those who would make bad partners) and good men (those who would make good partners)

Disagree. There's much better definitions to be found out there, but basically bad boys are cheeky, fun to be around, exciting, have a spine. Nice guys are boring pushovers. Agree that bad men make bad partners & good men make good partners. Bad boys can be good men, nice guys can be bad men. "Nice guy" has become a fairly derogatory term, wherein a nice guy thinks he's owed a relationship simply because he's nice. Being nice isn't enough. Need to bring more to the table.

Alot of women are attracted to bad boys. Most women aren't attracted to nice guys.

mic: my passive personality will get me labeled as a 'nice guy'

Most certainly, be yourself. Simple unfortunate truth is many women won't find you hot. However, there are women out there who want passive/submissive/beta men. They're just less common. Just looking at r4r on reddit, for 1/2 hour today. There's a woman advertising for essentially a nonalpha. She wants to wear the trousers in the relationship, she wants to be the one to call the shots.

Couple days ago on craigslist, there was a woman who's looking for a FLR (GTS).

Instead of trying to get most women to deny their (to a degree) biologically driven lust for badboys, accept yourself for who you are (nice guy) & pursue women who want what you have. They're rarer, harder to find, but they do exist. Wouldn't be surprised there's a dating website for women who get wet over passive guys.
 
Indeed, it's not going to happen, only thing one can control is the value you place uppon labels, thats being labelled and the labels others apply.
I don't care for labels myself, I'll make up an opinion after I get to know someone or not at all
 
Those female stereotypes seems to come more from other women than males.
 
Nwahs said:
People are attracted to what they're attracted to.  Nice guys trying to shame women into finding them attractive is the same as obese women trying to shame men into finding them sexy.  Not going to work.  Not the whole picture, but there's a degree of biological determinism going on here.  

Disagree.  There's much better definitions to be found out there, but basically bad boys are cheeky, fun to be around, exciting, have a spine.  Nice guys are boring pushovers.  

Agree that bad men make bad partners & good men make good partners.  Bad boys can be good men, nice guys can be bad men.  "Nice guy" has become a fairly derogatory term, wherein a nice guy thinks he's owed a relationship simply because he's nice.  Being nice isn't enough.  Need to bring more to the table.

Men who are not 'bad boys' do bring more to the table then just 'being nice'.  The problem is the women who prefer 'bad boys' are not interested in what they have to offer.  I make short films, I'm an advanced cook with numerous personal recipes that keep growing, travel frequently,  have a strict fitness and diet routine, I volunteer, I'm also in the process of learning a new language, and  I'm Nationally certified in multiple fields.  And I do all the other stuff too (movies, eating out, operas, sporting events, etc etc).  Its every woman's right to find that boring and unattractive, while finding whatever it is a 'bad boy' does far more exciting and fun.  However to say that because I'm not a 'bad boy' I dont bring anything to the table is completely wrong.  Just because you dont care for what I bring for the table does not mean I have nothing to offer.

The 'bad boy' you praise so much, lets see him give a presentation in front of 200 people since his spine is so much stronger then mine.  

This is why some women like 'bad boys'

1. Bad boys approach them without hesitation.  Pretty much the only reason why there isnt a "be a *****/slut/virgin whatever if you want to attract guys" thing for women 

2. Bad boys tend to have low expectations of them and of themselves.  Wanna eat at McDonalds every day?  Bad boy dont care.   Wanna wear clothes 3 sizes too big or too small?  Bad boy dont care.  Dont ever want to improve yourself?  Bad boy dont care. Some women love that

3. They feel bad boys can inject excitement into their mundane lives.  Not an issue for women who are happy with the lives they are already living.


Nwahs said:
Most certainly, be yourself.  Simple unfortunate truth is many women won't find you hot.  However, there are women out there who want passive/submissive/beta men.  They're just less common.  Just looking at r4r on reddit, for 1/2 hour today.  There's a woman advertising for essentially a nonalpha.  She wants to wear the trousers in the relationship, she wants to be the one to call the shots.  

Couple days ago on craigslist, there was a woman who's looking for a FLR (GTS).  

Instead of trying to get most women to deny their (to a degree) biologically driven lust for badboys, accept yourself for who you are (nice guy) & pursue women who want what you have.  They're rarer, harder to find, but they do exist.  Wouldn't be surprised there's a dating website for women who get wet over passive guys.

You are absolutely right that many women wont find me 'hot'.  Thats their right.  However, the different or 'unpopular' way is not always bad, or worse, as you seem to think it is.

It seems you've not really taken note to the point of this thread.  You understand that I have a passive personality, so immediately you want to group me in with "submissive beta" men.  Understand you cannot do this with most people.  If you think I am incapable of standing up for myself or for others you are seriously wrong.  

I have dealt with 'bad boys' in the past.  My late sister literally said 'I like bad guys'.  And guess who gets called to her house at 2 o'clock in the mourning to intervene in yet another drunken, violent outburst from her 'bad boy'?  I've had 'bad boys' as friends.  You know, the ones that all the girls fawn over.  And guess what?  The content of their character left much to be desired.  Needless to say the friendships were tepid at best.  I've also dealt with so called 'nice guys'.  Maybe because I wasnt looking for someone else to 'excite' my life I was able to enjoy these people for who they were, and not what I wanted to get from them.

Overall I've noticed your harsh, sometimes abusive speech towards me throughout your reply.  Im guessing this is you flexing your 'bad boy' muscle.  lol, you really bought this whole thing,  hook, line and sinker.  Because you know it plays to what you feel are your character strengths so your just going to ride this thing out and see where it takes you.  
 
Seriously? I don't see anything even remotely "bad boy-ish" in those posts.
You seem to be somewhat fixated on the whole bad boy versus nice guy thing. Why lump the entire male population into two "categories?" Same goes for the ones mentioned about females - people are just PEOPLE with different personalities.
 
Nwahs said:
Couple days ago on craigslist, there was a woman who's looking for a FLR (GTS).  

What the hell is that?
 
Stereotypical 'nice guy' here, heh. To be honest I find this more and more true to some extents. I've been passed up or not noticed by women because I am just that, the nice guy. I'm boring and I'm the safe option, and I find women of my age group don't want that, they want that 'Bad Boy' stereotype so to speak. Even if it's bad for them, or what have you. I don't find I group women into those categories though. Of course, I don't know if it's true for everyone, but I find it's been true for me.

BeyondShy said:
Nwahs said:
Couple days ago on craigslist, there was a woman who's looking for a FLR (GTS).  

What the hell is that?

'Female led relationship' apparently. I'm unfamiliar with the term but I recognise the concept from context. For those who think that relationships are arbitrarily defined into dominant and submissive roles. In this instance, a female led relationship would involve the man doing everything the woman said all the time, and supporting them and the female's life goals while neglecting their own.

Not to say such relationships don't exist, but I find it difficult to believe that complex relationships like we have nowadays can be so binary and absolute. But hey, apparently that's a thing people look for.
 
Sorry, can't work out how to quote. Tried, not working the way I want.

Beyond: FLR (GTS) = Female Led Relationship (Google That honeysuckle).

michael, rereading my post, I can see there's places where I'm speaking of generalities inwhich it could be interpreted I'm talking about you specifically. Will try to be clearer.

mich: make short films, I'm an advanced cook with numerous personal recipes that keep growing, travel frequently, have a strict fitness and diet routine, I volunteer, I'm also in the process of learning a new language, and I'm Nationally certified in multiple fields

Fair enough. You bring alot to the table & as you said, alot of women don't hold those things in high enough regard to date you.

mich: Bad boys approach them without hesitation. Pretty much the only reason why there isnt a "be a *****/slut/virgin whatever if you want to attract guys" thing for women

There's thousands of articles written by women telling women how to attract guys. May not be as oversimplistic as "be a slut", but there's likely repeated themes/advice on what to do.

mich: Bad boys tend to have low expectations of them and of themselves. Wanna eat at McDonalds every day? Bad boy dont care. Wanna wear clothes 3 sizes too big or too small? Bad boy dont care. Dont ever want to improve yourself? Bad boy dont care. Some women love that

Some people love that. Let's go the other extreme: Do you have overly high standards, which chase women away? There's something very attractive to alot of people about being liked/accepted for who they are. Some women'll go for guys who don't give them a hard time for wanting to eat at McD's & let them wear what they want.

mich: They feel bad boys can inject excitement into their mundane lives. Not an issue for women who are happy with the lives they are already living

Happiness is temporary & from the little I've read, designed that way. How we're wired. It's to keep us motivated. Being happy too long makes us complacent. Alot of people allow an exciting man/woman into their lives, even if they aren't the best for them. Most lives are fairly mundane.

mich: However, the different or 'unpopular' way is not always bad, or worse, as you seem to think it is

Not about bad or good, just the way things are. Like complaining about one's height. Not much can be done about it. Focus about what can be done, instead of what cannot.

mich: It seems you've not really taken note to the point of this thread. You understand that I have a passive personality, so immediately you want to group me in with "submissive beta" men. Understand you cannot do this with most people. If you think I am incapable of standing up for myself or for others you are seriously wrong

What's the point of the thread? Seriously asking. Nothing wrong with being passive, submissive, beta. Be yourself, you do you. But to expect the number of women who're attracted to you to increase when you know alot don't go for passive guys is unrealistic. It's like complaining that grass is green: Pointless.

I'm truly, honestly very sorry for what happened to your sister. Guy's a piece of honeysuckle, anyone who's violent to anyone else ought to be imprisoned.

mich: Maybe because I wasnt looking for someone else to 'excite' my life I was able to enjoy these people for who they were, and not what I wanted to get from them

Everyone wants something from someone else. Be it sex, a romantic relationship, platonic friendship, etc. You didn't simply want to exist in each other's presence.

You've no problem labeling men & women, but get offended when I label you. Can't have it both ways.

Sorry if I've come across as abusive. Certainly not out to abuse anyone, just want to converse. Don't know what you mean, I've bought into something. Don't view myself as a badboy, having to choose from the 2 categories, I fall under "nice guy".

Not trying to ride anything out, just honestly want to talk.
 
The line between bad boy and nice guy is somewhat arbitrarily drawn and requires further distinction anyway. I don't like how "nice" turned into a derogatory term that makes no difference between passive but genuinely friendly men and the sneaky, backstabbing and pandering weasels. And while some men might act like bad boys to signal dominance and attract, they can turn quite pandering and submissive once they find themselves in a stable relationship, because the woman turns them into that kind of person - you know, somebody who is capable of properly fathering children and providing a secure environment. In the similar manner, "nice" guys can turn into ******** within relationships and become quite possessive of the woman they've finally gotten hold of.

Following up on what I said before, both bad boys and nice guys can have a certain blindspot for how they treat women in comparison to men and that's something I personally watch out for. I have seen dominant bad boys treat girls and girlfriends with a lot of compassion, but they honeysuckle on every other guy in their vicinity. And I've seen "nice" guys that were liked by quite a few girls, but were too dorky to actually get one of them to become their girlfriend, yet they found it perfectly appropriate to shame nerds like me.

At this point, I am neither a bad boy nor a nice guy and most certainly not a "nice" guy. Just let me be with all that nonsense.
 
michael2 said:
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While reading up on relationship advice I came across the whole "Bad Boy vs Nice Guy" thing.

Now what surprised me was how almost every single article encouraged men to behave as a 'bad boy' to attract women and completely fulfill their 'manliness'.  Living like a 'nice guy' was frowned upon and laughed at, and generally brushed off as unattractive as well as feminine.  Comment sections of most articles were filled with self hating 'nice guys' vowing to be more like 'bad boys'.

I feel both are negative stereotypes of men.  

In this movie clip Amber Heard says men group women into 4 groups:  Mothers, virgins, sluts, and bitches.



Is there any woman out there who finds any of those 4 groups flattering?  Or do you see them as I see the bad boy and nice guy thing, as negative stereotypes of a gender?

Women, what if you were constantly told that you were acting too much like the 'mother' stereotype, and you needed to start acting more like a '*****' to attract men?  Thats how it feels when men are constantly being told to be 'bad boys'.

Further, there really is no such thing as 'bad boys' and 'nice guys', only bad men (those who would make bad partners) and good men (those who would make good partners). 

 When reading through supposed traits of bad boys and nice guys I found myself to exhibit a near 50/50 split between the two.  That means like most people Im a complex human being, and you cant put a simple label on me.  Of course my passive personality will get me labeled as a 'nice guy', though, because people like to label others without ever getting to really know them.


It reminds me one 40 years old guy who has a crowd of young men following him in another online forum.
This guy lectures them about being bad guys and the alpha specimen, in order to attract the female ape  :D 

This ass hole is treated as if he is some kind of Guru and expert in women and life, when in fact, that moron is 
nothing but an immature grown man who doesn't know anything about life and just misleading others.

like you, I've always wondered about this entire theory about what's the proper way to approach a relationship and everything
leads me to believe that I am not playing this dumb game that everyone else try to play, I am just going to be myself.
 
Maybe all the nice guys (who complain about being overlooked) should date the nice obese women (who complain that men are too shallow). I mean if those men are truly "nice", they wouldn't be too shallow to date a nice woman who happen to be obese  :rolleyes: ((I'm only half kidding there...))

Seriously though, there are lots of books and articles written for women about "how to attract a man"

Recently Facebook gave me a targeted ad (because my status is single) about how supposedly if a women acts entitled while dating, it will make the guy fall in love with her... It was written by a man as well... His reasoning was that males are biologically driven to want to provide for women...

I have friends who are in relationships like that, queen and man-servant. One couple has been together for 5 years but I would class the guy as a "bad boy", the other has been together for 13 years and I'd class him as a "nice guy". Bad boys can be man-servants too, people are complex and can behave in very contradictory ways.

Not something I want... I don't want to be popular, I just want to find someone who is on the same wave-length. So there is no point changing how I behave in order to attract more people, acting entitled is not something I could be happy doing.

Like Nwahs was saying before, there are biological reasons for why most women are attracted to dominant males; but being dominant isn't restricted to bad or good. There can be good dominant males. 

I think that the phenomenon of women being attracted to bad guys might have something to do with modern popular culture; in which bad guys in love stories turn their lives around for a woman. It makes for an interesting story, so that's what people enjoy reading and watching; then try to emulate in real life. Nice guy meets nice girl and they live happily ever after... boring. People don't write stories like that. The challenge of getting a bad boy to turn into a nice guy, that's exciting even if it is most likely doomed to failure.
 
"Nice Guy" seems to have changed at some point to mean the sum of various traits women generally don't find appealing, to do with passivity.It used to be limited to men with ulterior motives who weasel their way into being a close confidant, then turn nasty when that doesn't segue into a relationship, (at least a logical connection to 'male entitlement'), something that deserves ridicule and condemnation. However now it's become the catch-all insult applied to just about any awkward heterosexual male who hesitates or thinks getting to know women first will increase his chances.

And Bad Boy isn't much to do with being antisocial, or even particularly 'high status' by standard measures. It's about having little-to-no emotional attachment and the challenge that presents to women. Trying to become like this if you aren't naturally inclined means hiding vulnerability and getting into the mindset of not caring. Beyond the chance to have sexy times a bit of life experience, you might rightly ask what the point of it getting into a relationship is.

I would never try and adjust my behaviour to appeal to someone who needed dominance and/or emotional indifference in men - for me there's nothing to be gained in being with that person.
 
I've come across this a lot in dating advice as well - the idea that bad boys are attractive and nice guys are not.  This idea that it's the nice guys who are the ones with the problem and who need to adjust, that it's the nice guys who are inferior really infuriates me.  

I'm a nice guy, and I am for many reasons.  Some of them are faults, but others are genuine beliefs.  First of all, I was raised in a good home.  Money problems caused frustration at times, but I always did feel safe and snug, provided for, and cared about.  Sure, there were some disagreements here and there, but I feel like I got along with my family for the most part.  I was certainly not neglected, abused, or exposed to addiction, sex, violence, or other crime.  Swearing happened here and there but was strongly discouraged for me and my siblings.  I was raised, basically, to be nice - to get along, to be kind, friendly, pleasant, honest, to share, to be able to tell right from wrong and choose right.  To think for myself and be true to myself instead of jumping on the bandwagon and changing, especially negatively, just to fit in and be "cool".  To use my head instead of trying to solve problems with violence and to think about the future and consider the consequences of my actions.

Now that I'm old enough to choose my own beliefs for myself, for the most part I agree with how I was raised.  I have some different tastes and views, but for the most part I feel the same way.  I'm not really into being macho, dark, cocky, or lewd.  I'm also nice because I try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated myself.  I like to be treated nicely, so I treat others nicely.  I do believe we can all get along, that there could be enough for everybody, and that it doesn't have to be a dark and nasty world anymore, especially not in a modern country.

Then, there are the problem areas that also influenced me to be nice.  From my youngest years, I had a hard time fitting in with my peers.  I still have a hard time with social situations.  I was friendly and cheerful and enjoyed being a kid and being innocent, when everyone around me wanted to act "cool", "tough", cliquish, arrogant, and crude.  I didn't see any appeal in that.  I didn't know what to talk to people about or how to talk to them, so I was socially awkward.  I liked "nerdy" things, and this was before that stuff became popular.  Things like that were still looked down on back then.  There weren't a lot of people who liked that stuff, and I didn't want to draw negative attention to myself so I kept a low profile.  I didn't care for swearing or sexual slang.  My life was fine and I felt no need to be nasty.  I didn't know much about sex or attraction but it seemed like it caused a lot of problems, so I wasn't interested in that for a while.  It seemed like it was for other people, the cliquish, stuck-up people.  Even when I became more interested in girls just from growing up, I didn't really feel like there was anything I could do about it since I didn't have a car, money, or date ideas, in addition to not knowing what to talk to girls about since there were almost none who shared my interests.  I wasn't exposed to a lot of cultural staples that people connect over, like bands, until later and I just didn't have the interest at the time.  And I was a very late bloomer to partying.  It took me a long time to make friends, and my friends were mostly late bloomers as well to these same things. 

I also went through some verbal bullying and was made to feel like an outcast.  I had no charm or charisma.  For a long time I worried that this was proof that I was weaker, there was something wrong with me.  I felt that girls just didn't like me because I was a low-status person, it was just the cards I was dealt and there was nothing I could do to make things better.  

I couldn't be a jerk if I wanted to, because I didn't feel like I had anything to be cocky about.  I didn't really feel like I was strong enough to win fights, so I tried to avoid situations that would lead to them - besides, I thought that I wasn't supposed to resort to violence anyway.  I didn't have money.  And I didn't feel like I could be good at anything, so I didn't develop any skills-based interests until later.  I felt like if I could be good at something, then I would naturally be better at it than most people with little work, but nothing ever seemed to come easily to me.  I felt like I was untalented and while I seemed above average in smarts, even that wasn't easy and I had to work at it.  I felt like whatever advantage I may have had was only slight and it wasn't really enough to make a difference in my life.  

I wasn't confident or assertive because I didn't know what to do, didn't feel like I could figure it out, and didn't want to make things worse for myself.  And like I was saying I didn't feel like I had any kind of natural talent, gift, or ability, and I felt that working hard only made any difference if you had talent to begin with and since I felt like I didn't, there was no point.  I felt like I was a runt, and combined with the way I was treated socially, it caused a lot of self-doubt and low self-image.  I've only recently started to challenge my old narrative.  But I still don't have all the answers, and that's another reason I don't have much confidence.  I'm still trying to find myself and my place in the world.
 
I hated the cocky people who felt like they were better than everyone because they had more muscle, money, because they drank, smoked, cursed, did drugs, had sex, and acted superior to anyone who didn't.  I felt like the way they acted was wrong, and I just couldn't understand how someone could be cocky because no matter how big you are you could still lose it all, and if that's the way you were, then everyone you ever thought you could piss on is going to line up to kick you the minute you make a mistake.  And I didn't understand how the girls, or anybody for that matter, wanted to hang out with guys who talked and acted like they looked down on them, didn't care about them outside of whatever they could use them for, and just seemed to go out of their way to be as unpleasant as possible.  

Being a "bad boy" never made any sense to me.  I never really had anything to rebel against because I felt like everything would work out if I stuck to the plan and stayed out of trouble.  Like I said, I wasn't rich, so I couldn't be the rich party ********* type of bad boy. But at the same time, I couldn't be the macho, working-class bad boy because I wasn't from that culture either.  And I definitely didn't have the background or any reason to be an actual criminal.  It would have made no sense for me to start acting like that because I would have been throwing my opportunities for a better life and all the good things I had away.  I was always told that the way to get ahead in life was to get an education, that it was brains over brawn and luckily I had that chance.  I always felt like bad boys were either unstable, true scumbags who brought their problems on themselves through bad lifestyle decisions that I knew better than to make, or obnoxious attention-seeking pretenders trying really hard to show everyone how "tough" and "cool" they were by being needlessly defiant.  And I never liked the raunchiness, it always seemed in poor taste.  It never made sense to me why I should want to imitate people in low places because it doesn't seem like a lifestyle that works.  

The guy on the left, the nice guy, seems like he's being real, being himself, not trying to be anything he isn't and living for himself instead of being "cool".  The guy on the right seems like he's trying really hard to be "cool" by adhering to a tired old cliche.  I get that the nice guy is usually a little lacking in confidence and excitement, which is something I'm trying to work on about myself.  I may not be there yet but I'm trying, and I still feel like that's better than being yet another rebel-without-a-cause copycat.  Yet those guys still have the advantage.  I just don't know.  Being a nice guy doesn't seem to work and I don't want to be a square, but being a bad boy just seems dumb.  I just wish I could find some way I could get what I want without having to be something I don't. I really don't see anything better about the bad boys and I don't see cheekiness as a good thing - I think it's aggravating. I hate smart-asses. And I never saw myself as a passive doormat - I thought I was being mature enough to pick my battles instead of fighting about every little thing to assert dominance like some kind of monkey. And if I try to change the way people perceive me, it's because I don't want my flaws and old stories to keep me from making the impressions and connections that I really want to, and might have been able to if I was more confident from the beginning. I get so pissed when people say that it's manipulation or that I am a ******* "neckbeard" that needs to just accept his low status. I don't think it is, because I'm actually trying to figure out how to do things the right way and get better. I think that there could be a way that I could have been good enough for the girls I liked, while still being myself - just with a little improvement and adjustment. I think it's that I don't want my experiences with being bullied, being a social outcast, my low self-image, or my other personality flaws that I picked up in my youth to define and limit me from the rest of my life, keeping things from being as good as they could be.
 
TheSkaFish you sound alot like me.  Your upbringing, social experience, etc etc all very similar to what I have experienced which has led me to become the person I am today.

The problem is I feel men and women like us are rare, and thus its hard for us to find eachother.
 
michael2 said:
TheSkaFish you sound alot like me.  Your upbringing, social experience, etc etc all very similar to what I have experienced which has led me to become the person I am today.

The problem is I feel men and women like us are rare, and thus its hard for us to find eachother.

It's just harder for us.  Women are attracted to masculinity, and bad boys have masculinity in abundance.  Their identity is all about projecting their masculinity all the time.  It's harder for guys who aren't as interested in that stuff.  I think it would be exhausting to be that way, because you'd always have to assert your dominance and defend your masculinity and "coolness".  You'd have to always be looking for trouble.  And I don't know what these guys do when they inevitably meet someone bigger, meaner, tougher, richer, etc. than them.  It seems like a never-ending game of one-upsmanship.      

It's also easier for them to find their way in the world.  For a job and hobbies, they just pick the macho ones, which are always socially acceptable - even doing illegal stuff is more acceptable and "manly" than being a "nerd".  They don't question themselves as much because they don't seem to want anything that complicated.  

I think guys like us have to be really careful about how we come across.  We have to remember that niceness isn't good enough, and to tone down the niceness, cuteness, and sweetness but at the same time without being a jerk because we're not good at that.  We have to remember to NOT be too agreeable or available to the women we like and NOT try to talk to them all the time, because we don't want to come off as a BFF, a pushover, or a doormat - BUT without being rude.  We have to make sure we are confident and assertive, even if we haven't had any success before so we don't know for sure what works.  We have to be interesting enough.  We have to act like we know what we're doing and where we're going.  We have to really make sure we have ourselves together (jobs, hobbies, etc.) and try not to reveal too many problems and insecurities to the girls we like.  We have to find a way to be ourselves, but without being Ned Flanders.  We can't come off as too prudish, and we have to show that we can deliver thrills.  It's a lot to keep straight.
 
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