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Incels are a hate group. There is no debate.
#1
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/po...re-incels/

"Incels, or “involuntary celibates," are a hate group.

That’s not up for debate. Incels—which, along with Pick Up Artists, Men's Rights Activists, and Men Going Their Own Way, comprise a portion of the manosphere—believe that women (who get labeled "roasties," "femoids," and "Stacys") flock to other men ("Chads") who are not them. This enrages them as they feel they are owed sex by those same women."

...not up for debate.  

Sadly, what could be a valuable forum to address the epidemic of loneliness, this forum, appears to me to be oblivious to the intended hatred and harm being spread by at least a few admitted Incels.  

Hate speech is not free speech, if anyone is wondering.
#2
They seem like a group that's owned by sex rather than owed sex, to me. Which is sad, in itself. They wouldn't be upset and crying about it if it didn't effect them at the core of who they are. So there's something deep going on there.

Men, as a gender, do get treated differently because of their gender, the same as women do. I've met plenty of women who've seen it and admitted to feeling bad because of it. You're kind've expected to help women who ask you for help with physical tasks, you're expected to know how to do "man" stuff like work on cars regardless of whether or not you actually know shit about cars. You're generally expected to make the first move in a relationship, you're all but guaranteed to be the one to pay child support if a marriage/relationship doesn't work out.

There's a lot of shit men do have to deal with, and if they complain about it, they're clearly labeled as pieces of shit that hate women.

They're not the same as incels, but you've listed them right up there with them.

I googled for like two minutes and can tell you at least two of the groups of "mens bullshit" movements you've listed don't even like each other.

I for one absolutely agree with the idea of staying the hell away from women and focusing on improving ones self and life. A man doesn't -need- to have a family, two kids by thirty years old, and a job to support them. It's a societal norm, yeah. But it's no less nonsense than expecting a woman to stay home and do the cooking and cleaning and childbearing.

People need to start accepting the fact that everyone gets treated like shit in one way or another and they're gonna take issue with it. That doesn't make it hate speech.

Women don't get to have a monopoly on the societal right to not get treated like shit and typecast into a role. Lol.

But if someone actually is a huge piece of shit that hates women, then yea. They're a piece of shit that hates women.
Same goes for a huge piece of shit that hates men.

The big issue with those types of people though is they don't see men and women as human beings, they see them as men and women.

I can be friends with women without wanting to bone them or avoid them for fear they'll ruin my life. Because they're human beings.

I do think it's hilarious I have a friend who thinks its wrong for her boyfriend to watch porn or masturbate but she has a dildo. I called her out on it and she just told me to shut up. We laughed about it later on. Yes, double standards exist, and yes, they effect both sides of this juvenile argument.

One last edit though: Do I owe the girl trying to hit on me, anything, simply because I'm a man? When I'd rather be single? I don't think I do. I think I'm well within my rights to decline her advances, no matter how badly her biological clock wants to have babies. And I don't think I need to feel bad about it whatsoever. It's not my duty as a man to give her a family. It's my duty to myself to be happy with the life I'm living.
#3
Obviously Enpatsu No Shakugan's second/sockpuppet account. You're not doing a very good job of hiding it dude.

And BTW offensive speech is still protected as free speech - in the Constitution for example. Hate speech laws typically apply to speech that incites violence. Merely saying nasty or unflattering things about this or that group doesn't qualify. Learn a bit about the concepts you're referencing.
#4
(04-18-2019, 05:25 PM)ardour Wrote: Obviously Enpatsu No Shakugan's second/sockpuppet account.  You're not doing a very good job of hiding it dude.

And BTW offensive speech is stll protected speech  - in the constitution for example. Hate speech laws typically apply to speech that incites violence. Merely saying nasty or unflattering things about this or that group doesn't qualify. Learn a bit about the terms you're using.

There are places where someone can beat your ass for using a racial slur and they won't take action against the person who beat your ass, because of the fact you've used a racial slur against them. It doesn't just have to incite violence to be hate speech. Though I suppose if you get your ass beat for saying it, it did incite violence.

I might be wrong though, I haven't read up on that lately.
#5
(04-18-2019, 05:16 PM)Naizo Wrote: They seem like a group that's owned by sex rather than owed sex, to me.

Men, as a gender, do get treated differently because of their gender, the same as women do. I've met plenty of women who've seen it and admitted to feeling bad because of it. You're kind've expected to help women who ask you for help with physical tasks, you're expected to know how to do "man" stuff like work on cars regardless of whether or not you actually know shit about cars. You're generally expected to make the first move in a relationship, you're all but guaranteed to be the one to pay child support if a marriage/relationship doesn't work out.

There's a lot of shit men do have to deal with, and if they complain about it, they're clearly labeled as pieces of shit that hate women.

They're not the same as incels, but you've listed them right up there with them.

I googled for like two minutes and can tell you at least two of the groups of "mens bullshit" movements you've listed don't even like each other.

I for one absolutely agree with the idea of staying the hell away from women and focusing on improving ones self and life. A man doesn't -need- to have a family, two kids by thirty years old, and a job to support them. It's a societal norm, yeah. But it's no less nonsense than expecting a woman to stay home and do the cooking and cleaning and childbearing.

People need to start accepting the fact that everyone gets treated like shit in one way or another and they're gonna take issue with it. That doesn't make it hate speech.

Women don't get to have a monopoly on the societal right to not get treated like shit and typecast into a role. Lol.

But if someone actually is a huge piece of shit that hates women, then yea. They're a piece of shit that hates women.
Same goes for a huge piece of shit that hates men.

The big issue with those types of people though is they don't see men and women as human beings, they see them as men and women.

I can be friends with women without wanting to bone them or avoid them for fear they'll ruin my life. Because they're human beings.

I do think it's hilarious I have a friend who thinks its wrong for her boyfriend to watch porn or masturbate but she has a dildo. I called her out on it and she just told me to shut up. We laughed about it later on.  Yes, double standards exist, and yes, they effect both sides of this juvenile argument.

"I googled for like two minutes and can tell you at least two of the groups of "mens bullshit" movements you've listed don't even like each other.", I can think of some Neo-Nazis and KKK outfits that have historically had problems with each other as well.

One such example would be the Aryan Nation that had (might still have...not sure) a camp on land about 15 miles south of where the Ruby Ridge stuff occurred.  They were one of these hate groups that intertwined The Bible into their message of while supremacy.  But once a year they held, on their land, a national gathering of various hate groups including at least one that was atheistic as well.

It took a lot of tolerating for the intolerant to get along long enough to all yell about the people they all hated. 

So, a couple of these "men's bullshit" movements don't like each other?  Not sure I see the point.

Now here is something you probably won't expect.  I actually AGREE with some of your points.  About 75% of all Petitions for Court Orders of Protection are filed DURING divorces.  They are used as a tool in divorce.  Everybody knows it...but the system is so afraid of (judges) of being the one guy who gets a woman killed by denying the petition that they grant them practically carte blanche.  That's a problem!

Then there is the #BelieveHer movement.  Hey, sorry but I've always stayed OUT of the court of public opinion, we have a court system to decide these things and my intent is to not believe or disbelieve anyone.  Nor will I be disrespectful to the accused or accuser.  IMO it makes more sense to suspend judgement, after all, when has the media been strictly perfect in it's reporting.

But!  Last thing, while we talk about peripheral issues...aren't we ignoring the FACT that around 20 people are dead due to the Incel movement?  That seems important to me.

(04-18-2019, 05:27 PM)Naizo Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 05:25 PM)ardour Wrote: Obviously Enpatsu No Shakugan's second/sockpuppet account.  You're not doing a very good job of hiding it dude.

And BTW offensive speech is stll protected speech  - in the constitution for example. Hate speech laws typically apply to speech that incites violence. Merely saying nasty or unflattering things about this or that group doesn't qualify. Learn a bit about the terms you're using.

There are places where someone can beat your ass for using a racial slur and they won't take action against the person who beat your ass, because of the fact you've used a racial slur against them. It doesn't just have to incite violence to be hate speech. Though I suppose if you get your ass beat for saying it, it did incite violence.

I might be wrong though, I haven't read up on that lately.

It has a very odd and common sounding name.  "Fighting words".  And ardour would like to pin a very restrictive definition on Hate Speech and Fighting Words, because he wants to use them.
#6
Yeah, my whole point about them not liking each other is to say that they're not the same groups.

Pick up artists cannot, by nature, be the same group as a group of men that avoid women because they just don't feel like it's worth being engaged with them.

And men who avoid women of their own volition cannot be "involuntarily celibate" as they are themselves avoiding women, not the other way around.

Comparing them to the KKK and Nazi's and Aryan's is just juvenile. Most of them are men who've been fucked over by a woman or the judicial system and their reaction was to avoid contact with their aggressors and focus on bettering themselves, not genocide an entire race or put on cloaks and burn churches.

I'm not even talking about incels. I'm talking about comparing incels to men who don't want anything to do with women of their own choice.

Incels get denied what they think they want or need, and they let it own them. Which is sad. I think they're completely the opposite of a man who just wants to better his own life.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, in that I thoroughly distrust women, and their decision making skills. My first reaction to a woman even flirting with me is to shut them out emotionally. They don't have anything to do with the one that harmed me, but it doesn't matter.

But I don't go out of my way and hate them. I just don't want anything to do with them. So it's a completely different thing.


Can we talk about why it's okay for a woman at work to keep touching on me and tickling me and hugging on me, and for my boss (who is a man) to slap me on the ass jokingly, but if I were a woman they'd all get fired?

I obviously have different complaints about society than you or the article you've posted do. I'm just saying, again, that men who don't want to be in a relationship with women and men who can't get laid so they hate women are two completely separate groups.

Elliot Rodger was a shithead. No disagreement. That's something that's not up for debate.

I am an atheist though. Are we shipping me off Escape from L.A. Style because some atheists are part of hate groups? Lol. Don't be that kid in school who thought atheist meant the same thing as worshiper of Satan. Hell, even Satanists don't worship Satan.
#7
(04-18-2019, 05:47 PM)Naizo Wrote: Yeah, my whole point about them not liking each other is to say that they're not the same groups.

Pick up artists cannot, by nature, be the same group as a group of men that avoid women because they just don't feel like it's worth being engaged with them.

And men who avoid women of their own volition cannot be "involuntarily celibate" as they are themselves avoiding women, not the other way around.

Comparing them to the KKK and Nazi's and Aryan's is just juvenile. Most of them are men who've been fucked over by a woman or the judicial system and their reaction was to avoid contact with their aggressors and focus on bettering themselves, not genocide an entire race or put on cloaks and burn churches.

I'm not even talking about incels. I'm talking about comparing incels to men who don't want anything to do with women of their own choice.

Incels get denied what they think they want or need, and they let it own them. Which is sad. I think they're completely the opposite of a man who just wants to better his own life.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, in that I thoroughly distrust women, and their decision making skills. My first reaction to a woman even flirting with me is to shut them out emotionally. They don't have anything to do with the one that harmed me, but it doesn't matter.

But I don't go out of my way and hate them. I just don't want anything to do with them. So it's a completely different thing.


Can we talk about why it's okay for a woman at work to keep touching on me and tickling me and hugging on me, and for my boss (who is a man) to slap me on the ass jokingly, but if I were a woman they'd all get fired?

I obviously have different complaints about society than you or the article you've posted do. I'm just saying, again, that men who don't want to be in a relationship with women and men who can't get laid so they hate women are two completely separate groups.

Elliot Rodger was a shithead. No disagreement. That's something that's not up for debate.

I am an atheist though. Are we shipping me off Escape from L.A. Style because some atheists are part of hate groups? Lol. Don't be that kid in school who thought atheist meant the same thing as worshiper of Satan. Hell, even Satanists don't worship Satan.

We agree on more than we disagree on.  So if I don't mention something just assume that I don't have a problem with it.

Sounds to me like we both got screwed over at least once, maybe more times.  I miss my antique store, I'll certainly say that.  Bye bye, gone....never had a chance to keep it.

I think we might be in different places though as I blame an individual, not a group of people just because of their gender.

Then though there is my knowledge that there are pitfalls out there that were set up to protect women, that are being used as weapons.

Ask me if I would ever consider getting married again.   Smile   I sleep in a twin bed to remind me NOT to.

No, we aren't going to ship you off to Escape for anywhere Island.  My point about the atheist white supremacists having to find reasons to get along with pseudo oddball Christian white supremacists was about how two groups with something in common can find that something in common and put other issues aside.

My complaint is with Incel's openly posting their ideology on here....and my intent is to be gone one way or the other if that is considered acceptable.
#8
And where exactly do you expect to go that you won't find shit that disagrees with your "facts"? A subreddit that only allows people who have the SAME values and ideals? lol

Seriously, it's not going to happen. I'm not sure why you can't understand what an open public forum is. Sorry, you can't control everything.

Also, if you would bother to do a tiny bit of research, you would see that most of the incel shit is eventually closed because people argue.
Want to talk?  Check out the CHAT ROOM 

[Image: Quotefancy-19173-3840x2160.jpg?resize=1165%2C655&ssl=1]
#9
(04-18-2019, 05:33 PM)DanL53 Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 05:16 PM)Naizo Wrote: They seem like a group that's owned by sex rather than owed sex, to me.

Men, as a gender, do get treated differently because of their gender, the same as women do. I've met plenty of women who've seen it and admitted to feeling bad because of it. You're kind've expected to help women who ask you for help with physical tasks, you're expected to know how to do "man" stuff like work on cars regardless of whether or not you actually know shit about cars. You're generally expected to make the first move in a relationship, you're all but guaranteed to be the one to pay child support if a marriage/relationship doesn't work out.

There's a lot of shit men do have to deal with, and if they complain about it, they're clearly labeled as pieces of shit that hate women.

They're not the same as incels, but you've listed them right up there with them.

I googled for like two minutes and can tell you at least two of the groups of "mens bullshit" movements you've listed don't even like each other.

I for one absolutely agree with the idea of staying the hell away from women and focusing on improving ones self and life. A man doesn't -need- to have a family, two kids by thirty years old, and a job to support them. It's a societal norm, yeah. But it's no less nonsense than expecting a woman to stay home and do the cooking and cleaning and childbearing.

People need to start accepting the fact that everyone gets treated like shit in one way or another and they're gonna take issue with it. That doesn't make it hate speech.

Women don't get to have a monopoly on the societal right to not get treated like shit and typecast into a role. Lol.

But if someone actually is a huge piece of shit that hates women, then yea. They're a piece of shit that hates women.
Same goes for a huge piece of shit that hates men.

The big issue with those types of people though is they don't see men and women as human beings, they see them as men and women.

I can be friends with women without wanting to bone them or avoid them for fear they'll ruin my life. Because they're human beings.

I do think it's hilarious I have a friend who thinks its wrong for her boyfriend to watch porn or masturbate but she has a dildo. I called her out on it and she just told me to shut up. We laughed about it later on.  Yes, double standards exist, and yes, they effect both sides of this juvenile argument.

"I googled for like two minutes and can tell you at least two of the groups of "mens bullshit" movements you've listed don't even like each other.", I can think of some Neo-Nazis and KKK outfits that have historically had problems with each other as well.

One such example would be the Aryan Nation that had (might still have...not sure) a camp on land about 15 miles south of where the Ruby Ridge stuff occurred.  They were one of these hate groups that intertwined The Bible into their message of while supremacy.  But once a year they held, on their land, a national gathering of various hate groups including at least one that was atheistic as well.

It took a lot of tolerating for the intolerant to get along long enough to all yell about the people they all hated. 

So, a couple of these "men's bullshit" movements don't like each other?  Not sure I see the point.

Now here is something you probably won't expect.  I actually AGREE with some of your points.  About 75% of all Petitions for Court Orders of Protection are filed DURING divorces.  They are used as a tool in divorce.  Everybody knows it...but the system is so afraid of (judges) of being the one guy who gets a woman killed by denying the petition that they grant them practically carte blanche.  That's a problem!

Then there is the #BelieveHer movement.  Hey, sorry but I've always stayed OUT of the court of public opinion, we have a court system to decide these things and my intent is to not believe or disbelieve anyone.  Nor will I be disrespectful to the accused or accuser.  IMO it makes more sense to suspend judgement, after all, when has the media been strictly perfect in it's reporting.

But!  Last thing, while we talk about peripheral issues...aren't we ignoring the FACT that around 20 people are dead due to the Incel movement?  That seems important to me.

(04-18-2019, 05:27 PM)Naizo Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 05:25 PM)ardour Wrote: Obviously Enpatsu No Shakugan's second/sockpuppet account.  You're not doing a very good job of hiding it dude.

And BTW offensive speech is stll protected speech  - in the constitution for example. Hate speech laws typically apply to speech that incites violence. Merely saying nasty or unflattering things about this or that group doesn't qualify. Learn a bit about the terms you're using.

There are places where someone can beat your ass for using a racial slur and they won't take action against the person who beat your ass, because of the fact you've used a racial slur against them. It doesn't just have to incite violence to be hate speech. Though I suppose if you get your ass beat for saying it, it did incite violence.

I might be wrong though, I haven't read up on that lately.

It has a very odd and common sounding name.  "Fighting words".  And ardour would like to pin a very restrictive definition on Hate Speech and Fighting Words, because he wants to use them.

It's because I don't want to live in an authoritarian society where government imposes subjective value systems on people, overriding their human rights in the process. You're welcome to try and pick out anything I've said here over all these years that's even vaguely white supremacist or violent (unlike some I people I can stand by posting history without new monikers...)
#10
Is it racist to be attracted to a specific race of people?

No reason. Asking for a friend.


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