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Incels are a hate group. There is no debate.
#31
Well, I'd say my point has been more than proven. Thanks, I'll just leave the two of you to your own little hate group, but hey it's okay as long as you can justify it in your own minds, right? .
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#32
(04-18-2019, 05:33 PM)DanL53 Wrote: aren't we ignoring the FACT that around 20 people are dead due to the Incel movement? 

There is no incel movement.  Any more than there's a poor people movement, or anything like that.  It's not a movement any more than this forum is a loneliness movement.  This is another misconception that I've seen thrown around following the van attack last year.  I don't have money, should I claim every crime someone has committed because of poverty, or say that every crime against a rich person was done in my name?  It's like saying John Dillinger robbed banks for the good of all poor people, and all poor people identified with him and applauded him for doing so.   People just get frustrated and instead of taking time to try and figure things out they just go over the line.  Their thoughts and reasons are their own.  They don't speak for me, or anyone but themselves.

What really amazed me was that people wrote all these articles, but judging by what they said, it's like they made up their minds without ever even talking to an involuntarily celibate person, or just taking the worst cases and saying all the rest must think the same, without bothering to ask and find out.  It's like poverty, it's not a movement, not a group, not any monolithic thing where everyone believes the same thing.  There are no chapters, no membership cards, no rules, no common agenda that everyone is working together towards. It's just people in a situation, with different circumstances and beliefs as to what the situation is and how and why they wound up there.

(04-18-2019, 05:33 PM)DanL53 Wrote: And ardour would like to pin a very restrictive definition on Hate Speech and Fighting Words, because he wants to use them.

I don't think you've known Ardour long enough to speak for him.  Whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but I don't think he is hateful.


(04-19-2019, 01:29 AM)Enpatsu No Shakugan Wrote: you man-babies

Almost like anyone sensible who's socially mature

permavirgin

"Ha ha look at the Kettle!  It's black!" - Pot


(04-19-2019, 01:30 AM)Rodent Wrote: I really like this level of discourse. Here's a news article that says exactly what I think and also declares that it's not up for debate. I guess that's it then, case closed.

I'm more curious about the origin of that mindset and "male entitlement" is not a sufficient explanation for me.

Agreed, especially because I've seen guys who were definitely not incels, act very entitled.  But strangely, nobody ever cared about that. With them, the same attitude is called "confidence", "assertiveness", or "masculinity".  It seems people only care about guys who "only see women as a tool for getting their dicks wet" when they aren't good at making that happen.  That's the thing, players actually believe this, and act on it.  But you can't say every nerdy, struggling man thinks like that.

I have some ideas about the origin of the mindset based on what I've seen, but I'm not sure if I'll post because I'm not sure they'd be listened to anyway.


(04-19-2019, 03:04 AM)TheRealCallie Wrote: Threads like this are no better than the incel threads.  You are just becoming a hate group yourself.
Don't believe me? Just go ahead and look at what you post and tell me how it is different?  You are generalizing, you are saying shit is fact when there is obvious reliable sources that say it's not, you are saying YOU are right and everyone else is wrong, you are attacking and insulting.  How exactly is this shit any different?

Not to mention not listening to people with different info, saying "no, it's not actually like that..."

(04-19-2019, 04:00 AM)TheRealCallie Wrote: Bullshit!  You don't get to decide who is and is not worth someone else's time.   And some would say all you do is stir up animosity and bullshit. 
As for the "don't care much for" part, I'm sorry but you are as bad as they are, refusing to accept anything that doesn't comply with what you believe. You do disregard what others say, I've seen you do it. 

And yes, I don't always agree with people, but I don't insult them, I try to understand what their perspective is, I listen and I offer advice to try to help them.  I actually know what debate means and I do it well when the other party cares to be reasonable.

+1.  Damn, here I am, agreeing with you again.  Better not make this a habit Toungue


(04-19-2019, 04:07 AM)Enpatsu No Shakugan Wrote: Real great addition to the forum, isn't it? All these bitching about women topics, huh?

The same could be said about the stuff you say.  The forum is a place for people to talk about their issues, to get some relief when there isn't any anywhere else.  It helps to get through life to get stuff off your chest, hopes, frustrations, fears, despair.  It can be for entertainment, but it doesn't purposefully exist for that.  Again, if you don't like something, it's just not for you then.  Not everyone's problems, stories, whatever is here to cater to you.

(04-19-2019, 04:07 AM)Enpatsu No Shakugan Wrote: You can only "debate" as much as the other side allows, and from my experience with these guys, it's a big fat zero; it always just degrades into "NU UH, YOU DON'T KNOW THE HARD LIVES WE LIVE"

Yeah, but you don't, though.  Cause just like the article, you don't ask, you just judge.  And when they try to explain, you don't listen anyway.  

(04-19-2019, 04:07 AM)Enpatsu No Shakugan Wrote: Do they care if they ruin someone else's life? Nope. They're so oblivious, they don't even understand how their toxic mindsets can influence others, especially on a forum with so many people so vulnerable, and in that case, you can bet your ass I'll step in.

Let me ask you this, do YOU care if YOU ruin someone's life?  You're right about people being vulnerable on this forum.  In fact, for a little while, I wondered if I attacked you too hard in that other thread, cause while I hated what you said, I did see some of your older posts which suggested that you were hurting, and a little part of me wondered if maybe what I said was that little bit that pushed you over the edge to hurting yourself and that explained your absence after being here every day for weeks.  I thought, probably my words had no effect, but you never know.  What if they hit some trigger deep inside somewhere?  Maybe you had some hidden pain causing you to act this way.  For a little while, I actually considered your humanity.

What if the stuff you say, causes someone else to feel that way though?  What if you cut someone so deep, they decide to hurt themselves?  Do you care about that?  It's not going to affect me that way, I can tell you that much.  But I don't know about everyone else and what their state is.  It's worth thinking about.
#33
Booty booty booty booty rockin errywhere
#34
Another thing, OP, you identify as bi, right?  It wasn't so long ago that mainstream society just wrote you off as defective, inferior, and not worth caring about, and made all kinds of assumptions about you and wasn't going to listen to anything you had to say about your own self.  They said being gay was a choice, it was wickedness and moral failing/weakness and going against God, all kinds of things.  Being as old as you are I'd think you'd remember that.  

This is the same thing.  Maybe without the violence aspect of it, I mean nobody is literally lynching struggling men.  But it's the same idea, it comes from the same space that someone is just naturally inferior and whatever they have to say about their own selves doesn't matter, so to hell with them.

Me personally, I don't see the appeal of sex with men, but as long as nobody tries anything with me or nothing happens to me because of it, nothing spills over into my life in any kind of negative way, I'm not going to be bothered by it or go out of my way to mock, ridicule, or attack you for it.



Here's some articles on the situation that I think are worth a read, and are closer to what I think the average romantically struggling man really thinks and feels.  They might offer a more balanced perspective on the issue:

some of the most accurate quotes about it (at least according to me) from a thread on Quora:
https://www.quora.com/Have-incels-given-...-get-women

Quote:Have incels given up on the concept of self improvement to get women?

"Yes.

But its not something that is decided on the day. Its a gradual process of learned helplessness. Many negatives start cycling in negative behavioural loops in their mind and the learned helplessness dynamo is switched on.

Its similar to a woman trapped in an abusive relationship. She is trapped to a point where she either submits to her life of hell in the relationship or she snaps and kills husband or herself. There are many other solutions, some that she may of known about, but after years of abuse and/neglect, its start to disappear and sometimes outside intervention is needed.

What makes the incel one pretty difficult is the outside information FUELS rather than intervenes the behaviour. Most dating advice from average joe parents is wrong and if I used quora as a great example, most people don't even understand incel, which is clearly illustrated by the general “quoran” premise that their issue stems from entitlement rather than what it truly is, learned helplessness.

That's why its hard for them to see it differently. They are “helpless”, and therefore have to accept the fact of their situation. They can change, but you have to hit at that core, learned helplessness because if you go in with what most people do go in with: entitled assholes, you are aggravating the situation, not helping it."

...

"Reasons begin to pick up slowly, but they mostly begin to be incels when 'who they are' becomes incompatible with 'what women like in men'."

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/ra...manceless/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sympathy-for-the-incel

https://medium.com/@joelhill/one-way-to-...30708c9fd5
#35
(04-19-2019, 06:34 AM)Naizo Wrote: Booty booty booty booty rockin errywhere

If you're going to quote Bubba Sparxxx, at least make it Deliverance. haha
#36
(04-19-2019, 07:21 AM)TheSkaFish Wrote: Another thing, OP, you identify as bi, right?  It wasn't so long ago that mainstream society just wrote you off as defective, inferior, and not worth caring about, and made all kinds of assumptions about you and wasn't going to listen to anything you had to say about your own self.  They said being gay was a choice, it was wickedness and moral failing/weakness and going against God, all kinds of things.  Being as old as you are I'd think you'd remember that.  

This is the same thing.  Maybe without the violence aspect of it, I mean nobody is literally lynching struggling men.  But it's the same idea, it comes from the same space that someone is just naturally inferior and whatever they have to say about their own selves doesn't matter, so to hell with them.

Me personally, I don't see the appeal of sex with men, but as long as nobody tries anything with me or nothing happens to me because of it, nothing spills over into my life in any kind of negative way, I'm not going to be bothered by it or go out of my way to mock, ridicule, or attack you for it.



Here's some articles on the situation that I think are worth a read, and are closer to what I think the average romantically struggling man really thinks and feels.  They might offer a more balanced perspective on the issue:

some of the most accurate quotes about it (at least according to me) from a thread on Quora:
https://www.quora.com/Have-incels-given-...-get-women

Quote:Have incels given up on the concept of self improvement to get women?

"Yes.

But its not something that is decided on the day. Its a gradual process of learned helplessness. Many negatives start cycling in negative behavioural loops in their mind and the learned helplessness dynamo is switched on.

Its similar to a woman trapped in an abusive relationship. She is trapped to a point where she either submits to her life of hell in the relationship or she snaps and kills husband or herself. There are many other solutions, some that she may of known about, but after years of abuse and/neglect, its start to disappear and sometimes outside intervention is needed.

What makes the incel one pretty difficult is the outside information FUELS rather than intervenes the behaviour. Most dating advice from average joe parents is wrong and if I used quora as a great example, most people don't even understand incel, which is clearly illustrated by the general “quoran” premise that their issue stems from entitlement rather than what it truly is, learned helplessness.

That's why its hard for them to see it differently. They are “helpless”, and therefore have to accept the fact of their situation. They can change, but you have to hit at that core, learned helplessness because if you go in with what most people do go in with: entitled assholes, you are aggravating the situation, not helping it."

...

"Reasons begin to pick up slowly, but they mostly begin to be incels when 'who they are' becomes incompatible with 'what women like in men'."

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/ra...manceless/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sympathy-for-the-incel

https://medium.com/@joelhill/one-way-to-...30708c9fd5
I've never known anyone in the LGBT community to consider other people as Alphas, betas, Chads, whatever terms the Incel community comes up with to degrade other people.

Nor to incite violence.

That's the difference.  I suggest the reason that in the last twenty years persons of my background have advanced so far is that other than our sex lives we are just as normal as anyone else.  We don't hate.  

Think about it.  Currently the third place Democratic Candidate for President, in most Polls, is Gay!

Would you like your Incel community (which does exist....and is currently a hate group) to be taken seriously?  Than it is not your job to convince me...when I can can research and find all the facts I need.  It is your community which needs to change the facts.
#37
(04-19-2019, 08:26 AM)DanL53 Wrote: I've never known anyone in the LGBT community to consider other people as Alphas, betas, Chads, whatever terms the Incel community comes up with to degrade other people.

Nor to incite violence.

Yes, but you've been degraded, you've been mocked, you've been used as a synonym for weakness, defectiveness, and inferiority, you've had violence committed against you. It's funny because a lot of anti-gay slurs are also routinely used against romantically struggling men.  You've had people refuse to even try to understand you, and suffer the insult and indignity of having people tell you all kinds of reasons for why you are the way you are, instead of listening to your own knowledge about yourself.  When this happens to someone, you'd think that you'd remember what this was like, how frustrating and hurtful and alienating it was, and wouldn't perpetuate it.  Especially when people are telling you "IT'S NOT LIKE THIS.  THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY IS..."

The phrase "do unto others as you would have done unto you" comes to mind.

And if you don't want to believe me, fine.  Read the articles then, and at least consider what they're saying.

(04-19-2019, 08:26 AM)DanL53 Wrote: That's the difference.  I suggest the reason that in the last twenty years persons of my background have advanced so far is that other than our sex lives we are just as normal as anyone else.  We don't hate.  

The same could be said of a lot of romantically struggling men. I hate my situation, I hate how attraction seems to work, I hate how hierarchical it seems. But I don't hate women. How could I hate women, while wanting to have an intimate connection with one? When I love my women family members and friends?

And if you want to talk about hating women, I used to cringe when I heard the jocks say misogynistic things in school every day behind women's backs. I used to not understand why women liked these men, when they said these kinds of things, when this is how they really seemed to think and feel about women and made no apologies for it. I was never comfortable with talking like that. I also felt the same about lyrics like that in music that was popular, and so on. So anyone that says I'm a misogynist, you really don't know how I feel. Not until you ask.

(04-19-2019, 08:26 AM)DanL53 Wrote: Think about it.  Currently the third place Democratic Candidate for President, in most Polls, is Gay!

Good for him?  Not sure what your point with this was, except maybe expecting me to be against it or something. I'm not, I couldn't care less.  His personal life is his own, his quality of ideas and work should be all that matters.

(04-19-2019, 08:26 AM)DanL53 Wrote: Would you like your Incel community (which does exist....and is currently a hate group) to be taken seriously?  Than it is not your job to convince me...when I can can research and find all the facts I need.  It is your community which needs to change the facts.

That's a pretty big assumption you're making about me, dude.  As I said, it's not my community, I don't claim them, just like I don't claim every poor person out there, or every person who has committed crimes out of poverty or to spite the rich.  I'm white, but I don't claim white power groups either.  One aspect of our lives is similar, that's it.  I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that when I and others keep telling you THIS IS HOW WE REALLY FEEL.  You're telling me how I feel, what I am, and I'm telling you that it isn't, and I'm not.  I don't know what else to say.   It's not a community, it's not a group, it's people with similar circumstances.  That's it.  All this "hate group" shit, is just fearmongering, grandstanding, and spreading assumptions and outright lies, all kinds of disinformation and propaganda.  It's just making everything that much worse.
#38
DanL53, stop using the term Incels to insult members and name call, that isn't allowed here. If someone wants to identify as one that's their thing, but the use of it in name calling and insulting stops. Also, if you've taken the time to notice the ones who make blatant misogynistic remarks against the opposite sex have been told to stop, and they have received bans because of it. It isn't allowed and isn't "promoted" either. I'm not going to bother to reply to your PM because I've said what I need to here since you want to complain about certain members and make a thread attacking them.

Once again here I am reminding people to stop the name calling and insults and personal attacks against other members.
#39
I'm not sure why sexual orientation was brought into this, but are you seriously saying the LGBT community doesn't have/incite violence or alpha/beta types or even incels?  
You might want to pull out Google, because you would be wrong.
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#40
(04-19-2019, 08:49 AM)Sci-Fi Wrote: DanL53, stop using the term Incels to insult members and name call, that isn't allowed here.  If someone wants to identify as one that's their thing, but the use of it in name calling and insulting stops.  Also, if you've taken the time to notice the ones who make blatant misogynistic remarks against the opposite sex have been told to stop, and they have received bans because of it.  It isn't allowed and isn't "promoted" either.  I'm not going to bother to reply to your PM because I've said what I need to here since you want to complain about certain members and make a thread attacking them.

Once again here I am reminding people to stop the name calling and insults and personal attacks against other members.

Not to worry.  This will be my last post.

You have a site which protects and defends Incels which are a known Hate Group.

I would not wipe my ass with your site.

The next time some Incel murders people...I won't feel guilt for having harbored their hate.


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