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It went too far this time...
#11
Quote:Let's say there was a girl who wasn't that physically attractive to you when she was in her teens and then she got really attractive in her late teens/early 20s? Would you be more inclined to want her when you weren't interested before? Most men would.

For me, personally, I don't feel dominated or driven by physical attraction anymore. In-fact, the thread was intended to point that out. That I am on the extreme opposite side now. 

In the past, I have felt the feeling of attraction, lust, infatuation and even love. I can recall what it felt like. BUT, I don't think I will be able to feel that anymore. Maybe because it was never ever requited so it never grew.

 It has been years now, that I felt such a thing. And I am even okay with that. The problem is that I have reached too far on the other side, that I sometimes see myself being less empathetic, emotional, and sometimes even be rude, etc.
Sometimes. Especially to individuals I know personally. 
I later realize that it is something I shouldn't have done.

Quote:Let's face it, most of the time romantic love isn't all about loving the other person for who they are but usually there are also some things they have to bring to the table. My point being, you might look at her negatively for only being interested once you acquired career status, etc, etc but if you look honestly at the example I gave then I think you might come to the conclusion that men aren't so different.
In my opinion, the difference is huge, since the comparison is between actual traits or qualities of her own self on one side like attractiveness, and materialistic traits of him, like career status, etc.on the other side.
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#12
(05-06-2020, 05:21 PM)ardour Wrote: Nothing is selfless in romantic attachments... but it seems like  the average woman just has to keep her weight under control to be attractive to a sizable portion of men. whereas men have to improve themselves on several fronts. I'm trying to get past blaming others but it's that apparent difference in options that makes it easy to  become bitter.

I also observed this in my social circle. But I think that is just for the initial part. I mean, I wouldn't tolerate a partner who is rude to my loved ones, for example. No matter how attractive she is.

But I think I get your point. You are probably trying to emphasize on the initial stages, that people who are seen attractive have higher chances of "getting to the later stages". Or getting a chance, or getting noticed. Or getting listened to. The rest have lesser chances to show who they really are as people, since they couldn't make the first impression. Correct me if I am wrong. 
Infact, people who are highly attractive in their first impression sometimes get even more chances than they deserve. Even after being downright abusive, their partner can't leave him. I have seen that with my roommate's girlfriend who would ask me to convince him to talk to her.😂😂
While he would be angry on her all the time, even call her abusive words while talking to her on phone, under his blanket, thinking that no one can listen. 😂😂 

Have you watched that video where 3 guys are sent in public with hidden cam, who have almost equal social skills, but the guy with a very masculine face is given very special attention and interest and the guy with an average face is treated like a 'fellow citizen' ? And the 3rd guy who is really not attractive in looks, a creep for saying the same dialogue as the other two guys?
😂
I have experienced that too in my college days. And the experience is this girl herself and many like her. She would have never be interested in me, otherwise, she could have approached to talk to me like she did now, or like she did with guys she was actually interested in.
What made me wonder is that, I haven't changed as a person (From outside), then what has changed?  Her preferences? Because it didn't work out with those 'better looking' guitarists with a jawline? Probably. 

And I think that's fine, I don't care anymore. But then how can she expect to be treated the same way I would treat a person who wasn't unfair to me in the past or didn't have anything 'special' worth noticing? 😂

In a way, I feel grateful to those hurtful experiences of rejection, and unfairness. I have learnt to not indulge in romantic conversations with women. It genuinely feels that I am free.
Otherwise, I would have wasted a lot of my time and emotions in talking to her after she sent me a message. Trying to think why she hasn't responded, what would she make of my message, etc.
And not having experience would have made me worried, and affected my work life. Which is unacceptable. 😉
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#13
(05-06-2020, 03:34 PM)LostintheBardo Wrote: Let's say there was a girl who wasn't that physically attractive to you when she was in her teens and then she got really attractive in her late teens/early 20s? Would you be more inclined to want her when you weren't interested before? Most men would.

Let's face it, most of the time romantic love isn't all about loving the other person for who they are but usually there are also some things they have to bring to the table. My point being, you might look at her negatively for only being interested once you acquired career status, etc, etc but if you look honestly at the example I gave then I think you might come to the conclusion that men aren't so different.

(05-06-2020, 05:21 PM)ardour Wrote: Nothing is selfless in romantic attachments... but it seems like  the average woman just has to keep her weight under control to be attractive to a sizable portion of men. whereas men have to improve themselves on several fronts. I'm trying to get past blaming others but it's that apparent difference in options that makes it easy to  become bitter.

^agree with both of these, 100%.

I wish I'd realized this sooner, it would have spared me a lot of anger and frustration.  I'm still somewhat angry and frustrated about how it works, but it really does help to get rid of a lot of the confusion about how this game works (no thanks to all the bullshit feel-good platitudes that people like to say, to pretend that attraction is more wholesome than it is, and in doing so, to pretend they are more righteous people than they are - both for a personal ego boost, and out of belief in the just-world fallacy).  I still don't quite know how to play, but I get the concept a lot more now.  At least it makes sense, it feels less random and arbitrary.  I feel like now I can focus on understanding how I can play the game - if at all - instead of just being angry and confused and smacking into walls.

I just wish I'd known this instinctively, like many guys seemed to.  And failing that, then I wish I'd realized it a long time ago.  I wish I hadn't "just been myself" while I was waiting for women to change their attraction preferences, like I thought I was supposed to do.  That was wrong.  And I wish I'd picked up on the patterns around me instead of thinking it was all random, cause it definitely isn't.  I wish that instead of giving up because i wasn't "cool", or thinking that I had to wait for things to work out on their own later, I'd used my high school and college years (when i wasn't going to get anywhere with women anyway because i wasn't born with enough masculine traits, interests, and personality/mind) to push all my traits to the absolute limit because that's what I needed to do just to have a ghost of a chance to contend against guys who were simply born with the right body, mind, personality, interests, money, instincts, etc.  I wish I'd just realized that yes, I'm starting from a hole, and yes, I have to change who I am naturally just to compete because who I am naturally isn't masculine enough and doesn't make enough of a positive emotional impact on women.  I wish that I realized that it was a lot like money - it's not that I'm at fault, it's that the game is shitty, but you can either figure out how it works and play it or not, you can't change it, and if you're going to wait for it to change, you're probably going to spend your whole life waiting for something that isn't going to happen.  But I've always been wary of committing myself to change out of the fear that I don't have enough natural talent or dumb luck to ever bring enough to the table to be good enough. I don't want to spend my life on a wild goose chase of "self improvement", doing stuff that I don't even care about just in an attempt to be interesting enough for someone, getting my hopes up for nothing because it doesn't matter without dominance or "witty banter", and because I can't get out from under a shitty, accidental first impression and being labeled awkward/needy/boring, no matter how hard I try to be interesting and "cool".

"Social skills" have always been confusing.  It's like, what even is that.  It's not just talking to people cause I can do that, yet nothing happens.  It seems to be either having a dominant personality "swiggity swag, look at me, I'm so tough and 'bad', fuck you lololol" and/or being the "class clown", sarcastic, facetious, cynical, contemptuous, etc.  I could recognize this stuff if I heard it or saw it, but I couldn't come up with any of this on my own because I don't think that way, it's not what I really believe, not what I really feel. The problem is that nothing about me communicates status and superiority, that I'm better than others, because there really isn't anywhere in life where I am better than others. I don't have anything that I can show others up at, I don't have anything to gloat about. I don't feel like I have anything that makes me superior, therefore, I don't have an attitude of superiority, I don't feel superior to others. I just don't have that personality, and I don't like it.

Then again maybe I just strengthened fear, and my old story just by typing this post, and a real attractive person would just do things to try to make themselves attractive, instead of worrying about these things. So I don't know.



M, I don't know what to say, except that I wish I could be in your position, to have the power of choice.  That's what I've been wanting all my life but never knowing how to get, or feeling like I could get it due to lacking natural ability or luck, just not being born with it.  You managed to do what I've wanted to do for years, change someone's impression of you, get out of being relegated to the social low levels.  So it's cool to see it can (maybe) be done. The game of life is shitty when you have no choice, when you're just getting kicked around, when you feel like you have all these limits imposed on you and everything good is for other people who are just better, and all you can do is watch everything go to them, while your own life is a parade of things you can't have. But when you can swing the power of choice to your side, then you can start having fun with it.

You worked hard, for sure. But I'm not sure how much of it depended on having enough natural brainpower, intelligence, to be able to do that kind of work in the first place.

If it were me I probably would have given her a chance, and enjoyed my newfound power of choice to the fullest after being powerless for so long.  But at the same time I totally understand why you didn't.  Her attempt to contact you must have seemed insincere, and sincerity is really important to me, I hate fake people, social status game players.  I wish it didn't have to be like this, but it is, so what are you going to do but play or don't play.  Oh well.

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#14
(05-07-2020, 02:28 AM)M_also_lonely Wrote: I also observed this in my social circle. But I think that is just for the initial part. I mean, I wouldn't tolerate a partner who is rude to my loved ones, for example. No matter how attractive she is.

But I think I get your point. You are probably trying to emphasize on the initial stages, that people who are seen attractive have higher chances of "getting to the later stages". Or getting a chance, or getting noticed. Or getting listened to. The rest have lesser chances to show who they really are as people, since they couldn't make the first impression. Correct me if I am wrong. 
Infact, people who are highly attractive in their first impression sometimes get even more chances than they deserve. Even after being downright abusive, their partner can't leave him. I have seen that with my roommate's girlfriend who would ask me to convince him to talk to her.😂😂
While he would be angry on her all the time, even call her abusive words while talking to her on phone, under his blanket, thinking that no one can listen. 😂😂 

Have you watched that video where 3 guys are sent in public with hidden cam, who have almost equal social skills, but the guy with a very masculine face is given very special attention and interest and the guy with an average face is treated like a 'fellow citizen' ? And the 3rd guy who is really not attractive in looks, a creep for saying the same dialogue as the other two guys?
😂
I have experienced that too in my college days. And the experience is this girl herself and many like her. She would have never be interested in me, otherwise, she could have approached to talk to me like she did now, or like she did with guys she was actually interested in.
What made me wonder is that, I haven't changed as a person (From outside), then what has changed?  Her preferences? Because it didn't work out with those 'better looking' guitarists with a jawline? Probably. 

And I think that's fine, I don't care anymore. But then how can she expect to be treated the same way I would treat a person who wasn't unfair to me in the past or didn't have anything 'special' worth noticing? 😂

In a way, I feel grateful to those hurtful experiences of rejection, and unfairness. I have learnt to not indulge in romantic conversations with women. It genuinely feels that I am free.
Otherwise, I would have wasted a lot of my time and emotions in talking to her after she sent me a message. Trying to think why she hasn't responded, what would she make of my message, etc.
And not having experience would have made me worried, and affected my work life. Which is unacceptable. 😉

The Black Pill type beliefs aren't helpful, they just instill bitterness, which gets in the way of relating to people.  I don't need to look up those kind of videos now so I'll  take your word for it. 

It doesn't actually matter if a lot of young women respond favourably to obnoxious men (as long as the guy's attractive) They're not the kind of women you should want to date.  Look for a better quality of person. I'd rather remain alone than end up with some idiot who's turned on by dominance.
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#15
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