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Forcing people to wear masks is so hypocritical.
#11
(07-01-2020, 11:08 PM)TheRealCallie Wrote: I couldn't find it on YouTube, so you'll just have to click the link.  There's a new study that shows how effective each mask is, showing that it really does help slow the spread, if you have a proper mask, of course.  

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2020/07/0...tudy-says/

Thanks! I was kind of excited to see a study done on various masks. However, I was quickly disappointed when I saw that they based everything on sneezing / coughing droplets. That's the largest vehicle that viruses travel on. I'm more concerned with the much smaller particles. Although, I was kind of shocked that droplets got 3.6 feet pasted the Bandana mask. That's further then I thought would happen. I think those are equivalent to most of the masks I see people wearing. I see a lot of black stretchy material used a round here.

The problem is that I've rarely noticed anybody sneezing or coughing out in public. IMO, people have been really good about not going out in public when they are sick. Or, there aren't many sick people. The other funny / hypocritical part is that it's been grocery store employees doing the sneezing and coughing. I've never questioned that spittle can be stopped by anything to a varying degree. I'm more concerned about normal activities like normal breathing and average volume speaking. That's what I see happening 95% of the time. That's what we should base things on. 

Another point I already made is that politicians or whomever will take the results from a study like that and use it to "prove" how effect masks are. When in reality they've only tested the extremes that happen out in public on the rare occasion.

I tried looking for what I want a few times to no avail. Maybe I'll try again.
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#12
(07-02-2020, 12:33 AM)Finished Wrote:
(07-01-2020, 11:08 PM)TheRealCallie Wrote: I couldn't find it on YouTube, so you'll just have to click the link.  There's a new study that shows how effective each mask is, showing that it really does help slow the spread, if you have a proper mask, of course.  

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2020/07/0...tudy-says/

Thanks! I was kind of excited to see a study done on various masks. However, I was quickly disappointed when I saw that they based everything on sneezing / coughing droplets. That's the largest vehicle that viruses travel on. I'm more concerned with the much smaller particles. Although, I was kind of shocked that droplets got 3.6 feet pasted the Bandana mask. That's further then I thought would happen. I think those are equivalent to most of the masks I see people wearing. I see a lot of black stretchy material used a round here.

The problem is that I've rarely noticed anybody sneezing or coughing out in public. IMO, people have been really good about not going out in public when they are sick. Or, there aren't many sick people. The other funny / hypocritical part is that it's been grocery store employees doing the sneezing and coughing. I've never questioned that spittle can be stopped by anything to a varying degree. I'm more concerned about normal activities like normal breathing and average volume speaking. That's what I see happening 95% of the time. That's what we should base things on. 

Another point I already made is that politicians or whomever will take the results from a study like that and use it to "prove" how effect masks are. When in reality they've only tested the extremes that happen out in public on the rare occasion.

I tried looking for what I want a few times to no avail. Maybe I'll try again.

You must live in an area with no allergies then, because everyone around here is coughing and sneezing from allergies.  My son does that 24/7/365, he is always coughing or sneezing.   Toungue

I think the point of this is to see what forceful projection like that will do and how far it goes.  I don't think you'll find anything like that for just speaking because it would be so little that it likely wouldn't be that helpful to do that.   There are studies that show droplets from speaking can hang in the air for up to 15 or whatever minutes and if it's not forceful, they would likely stay behind the mask, giving others more protection than they would have if no one was wearing a mask. 
Like with the bandana, it went right through, the same as the other mask that offers little protection.  But with 2 layers of cotton, it kept it mostly contained, add a filter in there somewhere and it would likely help even more.  Most COULD be effective if people wore them properly.  I see a lot of people wearing the mask under their nose, which kind of defeats the purpose of wearing a mask.

And I lied.  I found one. 
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800
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#13
(07-02-2020, 03:30 AM)TheRealCallie Wrote:
(07-02-2020, 12:33 AM)Finished Wrote:
(07-01-2020, 11:08 PM)TheRealCallie Wrote: I couldn't find it on YouTube, so you'll just have to click the link.  There's a new study that shows how effective each mask is, showing that it really does help slow the spread, if you have a proper mask, of course.  

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2020/07/0...tudy-says/

Thanks! I was kind of excited to see a study done on various masks. However, I was quickly disappointed when I saw that they based everything on sneezing / coughing droplets. That's the largest vehicle that viruses travel on. I'm more concerned with the much smaller particles. Although, I was kind of shocked that droplets got 3.6 feet pasted the Bandana mask. That's further then I thought would happen. I think those are equivalent to most of the masks I see people wearing. I see a lot of black stretchy material used a round here.

The problem is that I've rarely noticed anybody sneezing or coughing out in public. IMO, people have been really good about not going out in public when they are sick. Or, there aren't many sick people. The other funny / hypocritical part is that it's been grocery store employees doing the sneezing and coughing. I've never questioned that spittle can be stopped by anything to a varying degree. I'm more concerned about normal activities like normal breathing and average volume speaking. That's what I see happening 95% of the time. That's what we should base things on. 

Another point I already made is that politicians or whomever will take the results from a study like that and use it to "prove" how effect masks are. When in reality they've only tested the extremes that happen out in public on the rare occasion.

I tried looking for what I want a few times to no avail. Maybe I'll try again.

You must live in an area with no allergies then, because everyone around here is coughing and sneezing from allergies.  My son does that 24/7/365, he is always coughing or sneezing.   Toungue

I think the point of this is to see what forceful projection like that will do and how far it goes.  I don't think you'll find anything like that for just speaking because it would be so little that it likely wouldn't be that helpful to do that.   There are studies that show droplets from speaking can hang in the air for up to 15 or whatever minutes and if it's not forceful, they would likely stay behind the mask, giving others more protection than they would have if no one was wearing a mask. 
Like with the bandana, it went right through, the same as the other mask that offers little protection.  But with 2 layers of cotton, it kept it mostly contained, add a filter in there somewhere and it would likely help even more.  Most COULD be effective if people wore them properly.  I see a lot of people wearing the mask under their nose, which kind of defeats the purpose of wearing a mask.

And I lied.  I found one. 
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800

Yeah, I don't have any allergies. It's extremely rare for me to cough or sneeze. I have to be sick or choking on food to make it happen. People with allergies is something that never even crossed my mind. But, I'm not noticing it as a problem with the general public here. 

Good find! It's not exactly what I was looking for. But, it's in the same neighborhood. Thanks. They seem to have proven that we should all be wearing damp clothes instead of masks. It makes sense as water is attracted to itself (cohesion). Now, I'm curious if it would significantly improve cloth masks if there was a wet inner layer. I also wonder if the cloth masks work better at trapping particles the longer they are worn as moisture from breathing collects on the material. Hmmm. Maybe people should be using urine soaked baby diapers for masks. It would even help save the planet. Ha! Ha!

From the study: "Our aim was to provide visual evidence of speech-generated droplets and to qualitatively describe the effect of a damp cloth cover over the mouth to curb the emission of droplets."

Maybe I should start making masks with a "proven scientific laser tested method." I'll sell $1 masks for $25 each and include a small spray bottle of water to keep the inside damp. They wouldn't be as flashy as the silver and copper infused ones though. Maybe I could put a magic stripe on the side or something. I should partner with Nike and use their magic strip. Or, I could partner with Red Bull and say that Red Bull Masks give you Life. Ha! Ha!

[Image: MacySmith-RedBull-wings-red-blue-white-b...25x400.jpg]

But, this is exactly what I've been beating around the bush with. Have the scientists do scientific experiments using scientific methods and find out what REALLY works. Then instruct people to do that. Instead, the powers to be just run with whatever some "expert" says without having it evaluated or double checked. Then later we find out X doesn't work. So, the experts change their minds or a different expert says something different. So, we do that. Then they doesn't work. Maybe the tests have been performed and that's why Trump hasn't been wearing a mask. He's privy to the information and the general public isn't.

IMO, at this point, the proven techniques, as far as I can tell, to stop the spread of Covid-19 are, in order of most effectiveness:

 1. Completely isolating people.

 2. Mostly isolating people.

 3. Having people only going out for life sustaining needs.

 4. Wearing a real respirator that traps viruses.

 5. Properly worn and properly fitted real, non-fake Chinese, N95 mask only for the allotted time per the manufacturer guidelines.

 6. And now, Putting a wet cloth in front of one's mouth and nose. 

 7. Multi-layered face masks made from thick tightly woven material and properly fitted.

 8. Not coughing, sneezing, or talking in public while staying at least six feet from others. (This is what I do)





14. Properly fitted thick single layer cloth masks.







25. Putting colored tape on the floor that is six feet apart one way but only 2 feet apart the other way.


 
30. Ill fitting single layer stretchy cloth masks that look cool.


33. Tattoo of a face mask.



Disclaimer for the few people who may think the above list is official:
The above list is NOT official although I believe it's fairly accurate. It is based on a combination of my opinions, crap I've read, studies I've read, laser light tests, things I've seen, shows I've watched, etc, etc, etc.
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#14
"During a news briefing on Tuesday, WHO health experts responded to an open letter signed by 239 scientists urging the U.N. body to recognize the potential for airborne spread of COVID-19 and to adopt measures to prevent such transmission."
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/...594188312/


Since February several doctors and scientist have believed, due to previous evidence, that Covid-19 is passed not only by large respiratory droplets but also by tiny airborne particles. These are the ones that I and others believe are causing the bulk of the transmission. As discussed earlier, the cloth masks do not stop the tiny airborne particles. They pass right through the cloth masks. They also freely flow from the gaps on the sides and around the nose. Basically what happens is a cloud of tiny escaped airborne particles lingers in the air when inside an enclosed space for quite some time waiting for the next victim. BTW, that shoots the entire six feet social distancing thing to hell.

But, the politicians and the media just keep pounding the absolute need to wear cloth masks when out in public to stop the spread. I keep hearing that hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved if everybody wore the clothes masks. I'm calling Bullshit on that.

There are only three factual ways to stop the spread. Social Isolation, Herd Immunity, and using a working Vaccination.

I'm believe that herd immunity is the only real solution especially at this point. We've pissed away trillions of dollars that could have been used to improve society and help the vulnerable. That is going to have dire consequences for years to come. Just remember that the virus didn't do that. Our politicians did. We are all going to get infected with Covid-19. So, let it happen naturally like it's been happening for millions of years. Allow individuals and businesses to decide what protection measures they wish to take.

We should protect the vulnerable by isolating them, protect the front line workers, and then open things up so we can live as normally as we can.
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#15
Half a million deaths not enough? It causes all sorts of ongoing health problems, including liver damage.
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#16
(07-09-2020, 09:56 AM)ardour Wrote: Half a million deaths not enough? It causes all sorts of ongoing health problems, including liver damage.

Enough for what? Huge amounts of deaths happen all the time from all kinds of stuff. That's part of life. Should we take all cars off the road, etc, etc, etc? That would stop lots of deaths. That would be the humane thing to do. Right? Car accidents aren't selective they kill healthy young people including kids and babies while the Coronavirus lets them pass by unless they have other problems.

According to the World Health Organization:
"Up to 650 000 people die of respiratory diseases linked to seasonal flu each year"
https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/sta...17/flu/en/

Why is it okay that the flu kills so many people EVERY year but we are killing the world's economy just to slow down the spread of Covid-19? Where are all the protests over the FLU deaths?

How many millions of people are going to be pushed into a lower class of living permanently? How many are going to become permanently poor? What about all the health issues / deaths related to that?

My point is that we should be honest with ourselves. We should either totally isolate to stop the spread or let things happen naturally while allowing people to make their own decisions, well, at least in the so called, free countries.

We are all going to get Covid-19. So, lets deal with it. I keep hearing that for every new case discovered there are ten or more active cases that are not caught. For each infected person, on average, they infect three other people. If one crunches the numbers it's going to hit every person fairly soon. The vaccines are primarily going to be for future generations although they may become the new flu vaccine we are all supposed to get every year but don't / won't.

I keep seeing the elder working at the grocery stores only wearing a loose fitting cloth mask. Are we really that cruel to accept that? Yes we are. They are part of the high risk group. They should, at minimum, be wearing respirators to protect themselves and probably a face mask if they should be working in the general public at all. The young healthy adults should be working while the older adults should be isolating while receiving government pay. That would be the humane thing to do. Well, maybe we really aren't that humane after all.

We also pretend to be self righteous by wearing low protection cloth masks while forcing hospital staff to reuse PPE and non-certified crap PPE. Why aren't all the politicians screaming about that???? The hospital staff are the people that are going to actually save lives not the damn politicians who are just trying to get re-elected by chanting fake safety sayings and making BS promises. Anything that hospital workers need OR want should be given to them period. Calling them heros is fine. But, words don't do much.

We continue with our lives wearing our leaky cloth masks and believing we are all doing the right thing. We repeat what the media says and stay ignorant to the facts without doing any research of our own.

BTW, Here's a cool site to follow the Coronavirus statistics:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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#17
Those points have been thoroughly debunked. COVID is different in terms of transmission rates, the potential to swamp health services (which puts all vulnerable patients at risk), mortality, lack of antibodies in the recovered and likelihood and re-infection. But I guess you know better than the vast majority of health professionals? Sweden's herd immunity approach failed: https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/0...ailed.html
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#18
Thanks for replying. I'm interested in finding out the truth and different points of view backed up by science evidence that's not receiving political pressure. That's why I put it in the debate section.

(07-10-2020, 04:48 PM)ardour Wrote: But I guess you know better than the vast majority of health professionals?  

I have no motivation either way. I'm normally isolated and live off my savings. I'm on the sidelines. However, I don't follow threats when they aren't scientifically proven. The evidence I can find, and common sense, is that cloth masks do little to nothing to stop the spread of the virus as I previously discussed.

Most of the high profile health professionals are under a tremendous amount of pressure by the politicians and different governments. Historically governments and politicians lie to the general population in order to persuade the public to do what they want them to do. We are just sheep. The high profile health professionals receive funding from them so if they want to keep their funding they have to follow what they are told not necessarily what their evidence shows or they believe. The governments want to open the economy, make money, keep their power, and keep people from revolting. Their main concern isn't the health and well being of their citizens otherwise this world would operate completely different.

So, in order to keep everybody happy the different groups use words like may. The World Health Organization, other large health organizations, and various others that have facts should clear state them as such. That's what they do. When they believe what they are saying they state things very factually. When they don't believe what they are saying that say may, as in, cloth masks may provide some protection and down play things such as the cloth masks.

Quote:Sweden's herd immunity approach failed: https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/0...ailed.html

Thanks for the link. I wouldn't consider http://www.theweek.in a reliable source. The author is listed as "Web Desk" so their opinion doesn't mean much since nobody put their name to it. Their motivation is to get readers to their site and interested in their publications. So, they state bold exaggerated and possibly untrue things in order to do so. Then they don't include links to real scientific evidence or scientific studies. Hence the term, junk news.

But, I read the entire article. Other then the title, I don't see where the failure was. The fake author did state, "The United States made the correct decision!" But, what decision was that? To lock down some states and at different times, open, close, and reopen things. There's no evidence. The line was just thrown in there to catch the reader's attention. Hence, showing the article is even more slanted to the junk news category. 

Herd immunity isn't immediate. Nearly everybody has to get the virus and that means maximum death quickly instead of it being spread out. Just because they seemed to be doing better in the short term or not means nothing either way. Nearly the same amount of people are going to die. It's just a matter of time. Do you want to take the hit right away and move forward or do you want to drag it on for years and/or possibly decades, which is the direction the US wants to go. They are putting all their chips on producing a vaccine. The US will continue to fumble a round until a vaccine is produced, maybe.

Quote:Those points have been thoroughly debunked. 

Please provide scientific evidence. I'm interested. I'm using the facts quoted by the World Health Organization. I believe their historical facts are fairly accurate. But, I could be wrong. I checked with the Center for Disease Control. According to the CDC, they estimate that between 24,000 to 62,000 people in the US died from the FLU this past season, October 1, 2019 to April 4, 2020. Are they debunked too?
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/pre...imates.htm

Quote:COVID is different in terms of transmission  rates, the potential to swamp health services (which puts all vulnerable patients at risk), mortality, lack of antibodies in  the recovered and likelihood and re-infection. 

Vulnerable patients are always at risk. Anybody with a weakened immune system is at risk for just about everything. Nature removes them from the herd to keep the herd strong and healthy so the entire herd doesn't die off. That's just how things are setup on this planet. Life and living can seem cruel. But, that's just how it is.

The potential to swamp health services in the short term is a concern. It has been the main concern from the beginning when death rates where expected to be very high. That was the main reason for the economic shut down, at least in the US. But, we've all had 6 months or more to make all the necessary preparations but we didn't. Well, the politicians sold off their stocks before the market crashed. So, at least, they prepared themselves. Instead we try to react to fires and put them out as we go along. Instead of making a plan, explaining the plan, executing the plan, following up with the plan, and adjusting the plan as needed, which also includes other sub-plans.  

The thing that would kill the herd immunity thing as well as vaccinations is if no antibodies against Covid-19 are produced by our bodies. However, that is highly unlikely. The entire health community is betting that Covid-19 is like most viruses in that our bodies will build antibodies to Covid-19. But, it may take several infections / vaccinations before enough antibodies are built up high enough in our bodies. There are several viruses like that. Or, Covid-19 might become like the flu with different strains each season. That would suck. But, it may very well be like that. So, killing the economy will have been just about zero effective.
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