People Just Don't Care

Today it seemed like everyone got together and agreed to ghost me, and it got me to thinking. After reading a thread by someone talking about feeling ashamed of needing people, I can say that I know the feeling. I know that there's a difference between "aloneness" and feeling lonely, but my life has been a huge majority of the latter, even during times when I knew and/or associated with a lot of different people, like when at university. Sometimes it feels like I have a lot friends, or rather, I will be talking with people I know and they will say I have a lot of friends because I mention a lot of people, but I always feel like there's some disconnect between me and everybody else - like I'm some kind of alien that can't relate to anybody.  

Like I try to be friendly and talk to people, but then they just seem to become distant after awhile. Sometimes I go through serious spells of introversion when I don't want to talk with certain people, but then after that it seems like when I do want to talk they have gotten past caring. Like I know that sometimes the other person is feeling not like talking to others too - but I feel like the other people I "talk" to -- or message rather -- often are not really caring about talking to me or seem to have some ulterior motive for talking to me. 

I guess what I want to know is how I can get past caring too. It's weird but sometimes I feel like the whole world hates me and that the only way out of it is to not be me and to hate myself too, except that I don't know what I'm doing wrong to make others just act friendly at first but then ghost me later. I'm not just talking about a dating perspective - I guess I'm one of those toxic women who can't relate to other women. I have three sisters, yet I have never managed to hold onto any female friends who are not relatives. I think moving a lot when I was younger affected my ability to sustain friendships. I communicate more often to people I've never met before than people I know in person. 

This post is all over the place, I'm sorry. I just wanted to vent about being lonely.

*big hugs*

I don't think the route to go is to stop caring. I am willing to bet you are an amazing person. It can take a long time to find the people who are right for us, but when we do, it can be wonderful.

I am sorry that you are feeling this loneliness. We are here for you. I hope that can help some.

I can relate. I've always felt like I was born on the wrong planet, or that I should have come out as a trout instead. Like you, I've noticed that friendships have just become harder the more I "grow up." I don't know how people connect, but they seem to connect on some mysterious, never spoken level that I've never comprehended. Even people who I've worked with in the past, who I went to lunch with, talked with and even provided some emotional support for just switched me off the moment that I or they quit the organization. I actually saw those people more than I saw my family or my spouse and they just vanish. Whooosh. I think lifestyle plays a part as well. People want to be around others who are like them. I think one of my friends, who I never judged or shamed or anything, stopped talking to me because she started becoming more materialistic and didn't think that I would "approve" for some reason. So she just vaporized after we had known each other for almost 10 years. I don't get it and I don't think that I ever will. But I can relate, I don't think that I connect well with people either. I try to keep myself busy, enjoy the few people I do still connect with and find meaning in my own interests without hordes of people around. Some days it works better than others, but it seems to get me by.

There's an obsession in the West with being emotionally self-sufficient; atomized individuals, making their own way in life etc. which leads people to view all but maybe their closest relationships in a transactional way. Also, the more people you know, the less energy there is to invest in meaningful friendships, and thanks to social media we are in (superficial) contact with more people than ever. It's pretty common now to come across those who are "friendly" because they are networking or growing their list of acquaintances and/or followers.

AmyTheTemperamental said:

*big hugs*

I don't think the route to go is to stop caring. I am willing to bet you are an amazing person. It can take a long time to find the people who are right for us, but when we do, it can be wonderful.

I am sorry that you are feeling this loneliness. We are here for you. I hope that can help some.

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Thank you very much, it feels good to be listened to.

ewomack said:

I can relate. I've always felt like I was born on the wrong planet, or that I should have come out as a trout instead. Like you, I've noticed that friendships have just become harder the more I "grow up." I don't know how people connect, but they seem to connect on some mysterious, never spoken level that I've never comprehended. Even people who I've worked with in the past, who I went to lunch with, talked with and even provided some emotional support for just switched me off the moment that I or they quit the organization. I actually saw those people more than I saw my family or my spouse and they just vanish. Whooosh. I think lifestyle plays a part as well. People want to be around others who are like them. I think one of my friends, who I never judged or shamed or anything, stopped talking to me because she started becoming more materialistic and didn't think that I would "approve" for some reason. So she just vaporized after we had known each other for almost 10 years. I don't get it and I don't think that I ever will. But I can relate, I don't think that I connect well with people either. I try to keep myself busy, enjoy the few people I do still connect with and find meaning in my own interests without hordes of people around. Some days it works better than others, but it seems to get me by.

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Thanks for making me feel like I am not alone. Yeah one of the people who stopped replying to me was a coworker I considered a friend and she had just gotten a different job and so I thought that she was just done since she moved on to somewhere else but then I heard from a fellow coworker that she helped him with moving to a new apartment, so I guess it was only me she ghosted. :/
I am trying to keep from comparing myself to others, but sometimes loneliness is not from comparing yourself, it's about a feeling deep within, which I guess still needs to be managed.

MaratheGray, you are definitely not alone with your posted experiences.  Allow me to add a different, Christian perspective.

You say that "sometimes I feel like the whole world hates me and that the only way out of it is to not be me and to hate myself too, except that I don't know what I'm doing wrong to make others just act friendly at first but then ghost me later."

Not knowing you at all, I can't judge whether you're a friendly, agreeable person that people really want to be around or not.  But, let me give you a couple of reasons to suppress any negative self-identity feelings you may occasionally hold.
First, I've found that most people we meet in the adult world are simply too busy and self absorbed with their own lives to give new contacts any sustained time and attention.  Thus, the whole world doesn't hate you; it's just that the people in it are often disinterested, uncaring, and selfish.  Second, I've found that a majority of my friends are simply lazy, being unwilling to write, call, or stay in touch after I've moved away. Despite my diligent efforts at maintaining contact with everyone by writing and visiting regularly, I've lost more than half of them along the way.  When we get together, Skype, or call, the friendship is evident, but they're not going to initiate a visit, sit down for a write themselves, or make the concerted effort to call me.  It's not personal; they do that to everyone that's not in their local environment.  Out of sight, out of mind seems to be the SOP for most people. That's a reflection of the culture we live in today, not a barometer of your personality, likability, or self worth.  Now, what to do about it?

While girlfriends in my past have been more giving than me, I've historically been the 80% give / 20% take participant in my friendships.  When I meet someone new, I have to be the one to reach out repeatedly to build and maintain a relationship.  I think my being single has given me the stronger incentive for such friendships since others tend to have families keeping them engaged.  That may not be fair, but it's been my reality.  If I want relationships in my life, I have to be the assertive one, giving far more than I take.  There are 3 points for optimism though.

Traveling the world extensively for the past 20 years, I've learned that travelers and expats are much more receptive to making friends.  The environment of being a minority with a common language opens up doors that don't exist stateside.
 
Since retiring 5 years ago, I've learned that old people free from their careers and busy family years are also more receptive to making (and keeping) friends.  It's a lot easier to cultivate relationships when one has abundant free time, and retirees are more likely to value a new relationship potential when they have less of that need being fulfilled from work and home life.

Finally, I would add that we were created for a purpose: to know and love God and to learn how to love others.  Our time in this temporary world is intended to build our character and prepare us for the eternal life to come, and that is best accomplished by following Jesus' example of unconditional love.  Consider that whenever you reach out to someone with a kind greeting, a small favor, letter, text, visit, prayer, or any other action that requires a bit of your time or attention, you are showing and giving love.  And to do so to those who don't reciprocate or deserve it is to be like Jesus. That pleases God.  Remember, you sow what you reep and your best rewards are waiting in heaven for you, not here.

Sir Joseph said:

MaratheGray, you are definitely not alone with your posted experiences.  Allow me to add a different, Christian perspective.

You say that "sometimes I feel like the whole world hates me and that the only way out of it is to not be me and to hate myself too, except that I don't know what I'm doing wrong to make others just act friendly at first but then ghost me later."

Not knowing you at all, I can't judge whether you're a friendly, agreeable person that people really want to be around or not.  But, let me give you a couple of reasons to suppress any negative self-identity feelings you may occasionally hold.
First, I've found that most people we meet in the adult world are simply too busy and self absorbed with their own lives to give new contacts any sustained time and attention.  Thus, the whole world doesn't hate you; it's just that the people in it are often disinterested, uncaring, and selfish.  Second, I've found that a majority of my friends are simply lazy, being unwilling to write, call, or stay in touch after I've moved away. Despite my diligent efforts at maintaining contact with everyone by writing and visiting regularly, I've lost more than half of them along the way.  When we get together, Skype, or call, the friendship is evident, but they're not going to initiate a visit, sit down for a write themselves, or make the concerted effort to call me.  It's not personal; they do that to everyone that's not in their local environment.  Out of sight, out of mind seems to be the SOP for most people. That's a reflection of the culture we live in today, not a barometer of your personality, likability, or self worth.  Now, what to do about it?

While girlfriends in my past have been more giving than me, I've historically been the 80% give / 20% take participant in my friendships.  When I meet someone new, I have to be the one to reach out repeatedly to build and maintain a relationship.  I think my being single has given me the stronger incentive for such friendships since others tend to have families keeping them engaged.  That may not be fair, but it's been my reality.  If I want relationships in my life, I have to be the assertive one, giving far more than I take.  There are 3 points for optimism though.

Traveling the world extensively for the past 20 years, I've learned that travelers and expats are much more receptive to making friends.  The environment of being a minority with a common language opens up doors that don't exist stateside.
 
Since retiring 5 years ago, I've learned that old people free from their careers and busy family years are also more receptive to making (and keeping) friends.  It's a lot easier to cultivate relationships when one has abundant free time, and retirees are more likely to value a new relationship potential when they have less of that need being fulfilled from work and home life.

Finally, I would add that we were created for a purpose: to know and love God and to learn how to love others.  Our time in this temporary world is intended to build our character and prepare us for the eternal life to come, and that is best accomplished by following Jesus' example of unconditional love.  Consider that whenever you reach out to someone with a kind greeting, a small favor, letter, text, visit, prayer, or any other action that requires a bit of your time or attention, you are showing and giving love.  And to do so to those who don't reciprocate or deserve it is to be like Jesus. That pleases God.  Remember, you sow what you reep and your best rewards are waiting in heaven for you, not here.

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I think that that makes sense. I do realize that statement is a solipsist way of thinking. I am currently on the path of leaving my religion, but a lot of those that leave my religion - Mormonism - where I turn for support turn to atheism, which makes it hard. I think my strict religion made it a barrier for me to confide in others because of its strangeness, and it turned out to be too tough and too full of holes for me to find solace in it. Also, I haven't moved in awhile -- I just moved a lot growing up. As nice as it might be to make friends when I'm retired, I'm young enough now that I don't want to wait that long, and with my current job situation, it will be awhile before I'm completely financially stable, let alone retired. Also, I don't like to confide too much in religious people, especially women, because they can be especially judgmental about my dating life. Being an expat sounds nice, and I've thought a lot about getting there, but first I would need to be financially ready for that, and I still have a student loan debt and other debts to pay off first. I think that with how my current life is, if it ended now I don't know if I would make it into heaven, or at least not Mormon highest heaven, but the price to pay to get into Mormon highest heaven is too high for me because living that way made me want to kill myself. I don't know or understand a lot of Christianity outside of Mormonism so I don't know what to think of it all or whether to pursue a different type of Christianity, but I guess right now I'm working on not hating myself so I can continue to live with myself. I don't know why I have this excessive need to communicate with people all of the time. I'm a little embarrassed of it.

Also, this sounds crazy, but a few times I have had the terrifying experience of waking up in the middle of night and seeing ghosts, and due to my mental illness I'm not sure if it was real or just hallucinations, but even if they were hallucinations it is terrifying to think my thinking has degenerated so badly, and if they are real it is more terrifying because there is nothing quite like seeing something that every law of everything you know tells you should not be there. Also, on the last occasion I saw it, my friend I was sleeping next to woke up and she said she didn't see it, so that obviously tells me this is more in my head. However it seemed so real to me, and when I told my mother she said that it was an evil spirit because that's what the fear meant and if it was a good spirit I wouldn't have been afraid, but I don't know what it means, but something about it seems very foreboding because both my friend's and my lives fell apart once the last incident occurred, and I can't help but think that there is something obviously sinister about that makes my life into more of a horror movie narrative than an enlightening one. So yeah, I don't know why I am telling you this, but I guess I am saying that I do sometimes feel quite sure there is an other side to everything -- but I don't know if I'm on the good side of it.

ewomack said:

I've always felt like I was born on the wrong planet, or that I should have come out as a trout instead. Like you, I've noticed that friendships have just become harder the more I "grow up." I don't know how people connect, but they seem to connect on some mysterious, never spoken level that I've never comprehended. Even people who I've worked with in the past, who I went to lunch with, talked with and even provided some emotional support for just switched me off the moment that I or they quit the organization. I actually saw those people more than I saw my family or my spouse and they just vanish. Whooosh. I think lifestyle plays a part as well. People want to be around others who are like them.

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Well said ewomack!   Agree much ... but think I should have come out as a rabbit.   Yes, relationships much about finding that connection.  There are people I work with, people in my neighborhood, people I take recreation classes with - but connection is restricted to that commonality.   For me , when I look deep enough, I see the barriers I put up on limiting the connection (setting boundaries) with people.  Sometimes I just prefer hiding out in the rabbit hole.    I am babbling on here.... i will try to get to my point!      Looking at each relationship I have with other people, there is a limit on the depth of that relationship.   Could be caused by me - or by the other person.    Or it could just be that the way the relationship is best for the both of us.    A deeper closer connection was just never meant to be - looking for something that just does not exist.   I met wonderful people through my life so far... and sometimes it was just a brief period, such as a dinner party.   But they inspired me....  and I never write it off as meaningless simply because the relationship did not turn into something long term.

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Sir Joseph said:

Finally, I would add that we were created for a purpose: to know and love God and to learn how to love others.  Our time in this temporary world is intended to build our character and prepare us for the eternal life to come, and that is best accomplished by following Jesus' example of unconditional love.  Consider that whenever you reach out to someone with a kind greeting, a small favor, letter, text, visit, prayer, or any other action that requires a bit of your time or attention, you are showing and giving love.  And to do so to those who don't reciprocate or deserve it is to be like Jesus. That pleases God.  Remember, you sow what you reep and your best rewards are waiting in heaven for you, not here.

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Sir Joseph,   I am only too pleased to know I have a lifetime to accomplish this  

I know it's hard to make friends these days and I also feel as if most friendships are somehow temporary and they never last for too long. People forget, people change, things change. But I also think precious things are hard to find. Long-lasting friendships are so precious and just like pearls, they're hidden somewhere at the bottom of this world. They're not easy to find but they're sooo, so, so worth the effort and the time.  Please, don't give up hope... Yes, most people don't really care but there are enough people in this world that DO care. And you will meet some of those people, I'm sure you will, it just takes time.

IMO, people care until it is no longer rewarding for them to care.

iseestars said:

I know it's hard to make friends these days and I also feel as if most friendships are somehow temporary and they never last for too long. People forget, people change, things change. But I also think precious things are hard to find. Long-lasting friendships are so precious and just like pearls, they're hidden somewhere at the bottom of this world. They're not easy to find but they're sooo, so, so worth the effort and the time.  Please, don't give up hope... Yes, most people don't really care but there are enough people in this world that DO care. And you will meet some of those people, I'm sure you will, it just takes time.

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Thank you for your support. I really appreciate it.

I feel like bait, on a fishing hook. The fishing rod, represents. All the people who CLAIM, to care about me.

The fishing line represents, being cared about, from a distance.

The fish hook represents. Those that care about me. Don't want me to be independent, only dependent.

Stardust, I'm amused by your agreeable response, saying "I am only too pleased to know I have a lifetime to accomplish this."  Just consider though that you don't know how long that life is - as evidenced by my story below.

MaratheGray, you've detailed several interesting points. Let me respond on the religious issues.  Others can move on if not interested.

One of my best friends was a Mormon and I took great pleasure in working with him for many years up in Idaho and returning for visits after retirement.  He was well grounded and happy with a wonderful family, active church and community life, and successful career.  We both knew each others' religious difference and never discussed the subject until our last campout - not wanting to lose a good friendship over any potential offense.  But, with his permission, we did finally discuss his religion and I asked him if he even knew why his faith was considered a non-Christian cult, a false religion, by the rest of the world.  He didn't.  He hadn't bothered to research the foundation of his own faith - the most important thing in life.  Like most others in the world, he simply accepted the belief system that he was raised up in and held to it with a "blind" faith.

Having studied world religions and Christian apologetics for the past 20+ years, I was able to share a few points with him - specifically the false prophesies of Joseph Smith, his lying testimonies in court, his criminal behavior in various affairs, and the unfounded basis for the Book of Mormon.  In short, the entire Mormon faith is based upon a man proven to be a fraud.  My friend, a life long committed Mormon, had no idea of these things.  But, he could have known if he'd simply cared enough to seek the truth.  There's an abundance of books, articles, and videos available now that anyone can easily review, and much of it is even derived from the LDS Church itself.
 
This past summer, I returned to Idaho for another visit and camping trip with my friend. I had hopes of explaining to him further the huge differences between Christianity and Mormonism.  But, 3 weeks before my arrival he died - at age 53.  I went anyway and visited his wife and listened sadly as she repeated over and over again her plans to see him again in heaven.  I couldn't help but thinking that the Mormon faith is a false religion, as is their form of heaven.  I can only hope that God shows mercy to the seriously misguided ones who do have proper love in their hearts as my friend did.

I compliment you for doubting your Mormon faith.  If you need or want any material to help you leave the church with just cause, I have one good summation article about the faith and 7 revealing videos available to share.  What I would not recommend though is for you to abandon all religion.  While this is not a prevalent problem for Mormons, it is the case for masses of victims escaping each year from the Jehovah Witnesses cult.  After being lied to and feeling betrayed by a false man-made religion, they tend to grasp onto Atheism, thinking they've found safe refuge there.  Unfortunately, they don't understand that Atheism is a religion too.

Religion has many definitions, but it includes where we come from, why we're here, what our purpose in life is, and what lies ahead.  It's the most important thing in the world, yet most people don't bother to even study it and seek the truth.  They just blindly accept the faith they inherit or foolishly choose to not care about it at all.  I'd suggest that everyone research the subject carefully with an open mind and pursue the one religion that holds a preponderance of evidence over the others.  Don't think they're all the same.  They can't be when they have incompatible belief systems.

Although I was raised in an Atheist home, my Dad was kind enough to take me down to a small community church when I was kid where I readily believed everything I was told.  I thus became a Christian based upon blind faith.  At age 38, I met a Catholic girl that prompted me to study her faith, which progressed to a full out devotion to studying world religions and Christian apologetics.  In time, my blind faith became an intellectual faith in God and the Bible, thus establishing my world view and purpose in life.

I'd suggest that getting your belief and value system established will dictate your thoughts, which control your feelings, which affect your relationships.  Don't wait to get your life straightened out before pursuing religious truth; seek the religious truth first and foremost, and it will then guide your life's path. That includes dealing with the many challenges you face now.

You say, "right now I'm working on not hating myself so I can continue to live with myself."  Such a self-identity, self-worth condition is a widespread problem today, particularly among the youth.  I believe it's an inevitable result of not being connected with one's Creator.  The Christian who knows, understands, and appreciates their love and value from God does not have a basis for any such feelings.

As for your ghosts, I can't judge whether they're dreams, visions, or real appearances.  But, I am certain that the spirit world exists of both good angels and evil demons. The demons may taunt you if they know you're weak and vulnerable in your faith.  Next time you see them, try dismissing them loudly and boldly in the name of Jesus.  Don't be embarrassed to do so.  I think you might be impressed with the results.

Mara - I can relate to most of that. Friendship is fragile. Sometimes you can make friendships in a particular environment like university or a workplace and then as soon as you leave that environment those friends fall by the wayside. I can certainly think of a few people I thought I was close to but who never wrote once I or they had left the shared environment. It's not always other people's fault. I have done it myself.
I think whoever said people care as long as it is rewarding to care was right. (Finished, thanks.) Personally I cannot stand bores. I try not to be a bore myself. When trying to make or maintain friendships, I always ask questions and show interest in people's opinions. Hopefully some shared interests will become apparent and you can build on that.
It's funny you grew up in a family of girls but have problems relating to women. I am the opposite. Family of boys with problems relating to male peers. Why is that? It could be intelligence. Intelligent people have fewer friends. Introversion. Introverts prefer their own company. Even so, friendship is something we all crave I think.

Sir Joseph said:

Stardust, I'm amused by your agreeable response, saying "I am only too pleased to know I have a lifetime to accomplish this."  Just consider though that you don't know how long that life is - as evidenced by my story below.

MaratheGray, you've detailed several interesting points. Let me respond on the religious issues.  Others can move on if not interested.

One of my best friends was a Mormon and I took great pleasure in working with him for many years up in Idaho and returning for visits after retirement.  He was well grounded and happy with a wonderful family, active church and community life, and successful career.  We both knew each others' religious difference and never discussed the subject until our last campout - not wanting to lose a good friendship over any potential offense.  But, with his permission, we did finally discuss his religion and I asked him if he even knew why his faith was considered a non-Christian cult, a false religion, by the rest of the world.  He didn't.  He hadn't bothered to research the foundation of his own faith - the most important thing in life.  Like most others in the world, he simply accepted the belief system that he was raised up in and held to it with a "blind" faith.

Having studied world religions and Christian apologetics for the past 20+ years, I was able to share a few points with him - specifically the false prophesies of Joseph Smith, his lying testimonies in court, his criminal behavior in various affairs, and the unfounded basis for the Book of Mormon.  In short, the entire Mormon faith is based upon a man proven to be a fraud.  My friend, a life long committed Mormon, had no idea of these things.  But, he could have known if he'd simply cared enough to seek the truth.  There's an abundance of books, articles, and videos available now that anyone can easily review, and much of it is even derived from the LDS Church itself.
 
This past summer, I returned to Idaho for another visit and camping trip with my friend. I had hopes of explaining to him further the huge differences between Christianity and Mormonism.  But, 3 weeks before my arrival he died - at age 53.  I went anyway and visited his wife and listened sadly as she repeated over and over again her plans to see him again in heaven.  I couldn't help but thinking that the Mormon faith is a false religion, as is their form of heaven.  I can only hope that God shows mercy to the seriously misguided ones who do have proper love in their hearts as my friend did.

I compliment you for doubting your Mormon faith.  If you need or want any material to help you leave the church with just cause, I have one good summation article about the faith and 7 revealing videos available to share.  What I would not recommend though is for you to abandon all religion.  While this is not a prevalent problem for Mormons, it is the case for masses of victims escaping each year from the Jehovah Witnesses cult.  After being lied to and feeling betrayed by a false man-made religion, they tend to grasp onto Atheism, thinking they've found safe refuge there.  Unfortunately, they don't understand that Atheism is a religion too.

Religion has many definitions, but it includes where we come from, why we're here, what our purpose in life is, and what lies ahead.  It's the most important thing in the world, yet most people don't bother to even study it and seek the truth.  They just blindly accept the faith they inherit or foolishly choose to not care about it at all.  I'd suggest that everyone research the subject carefully with an open mind and pursue the one religion that holds a preponderance of evidence over the others.  Don't think they're all the same.  They can't be when they have incompatible belief systems.

Although I was raised in an Atheist home, my Dad was kind enough to take me down to a small community church when I was kid where I readily believed everything I was told.  I thus became a Christian based upon blind faith.  At age 38, I met a Catholic girl that prompted me to study her faith, which progressed to a full out devotion to studying world religions and Christian apologetics.  In time, my blind faith became an intellectual faith in God and the Bible, thus establishing my world view and purpose in life.

I'd suggest that getting your belief and value system established will dictate your thoughts, which control your feelings, which affect your relationships.  Don't wait to get your life straightened out before pursuing religious truth; seek the religious truth first and foremost, and it will then guide your life's path. That includes dealing with the many challenges you face now.

You say, "right now I'm working on not hating myself so I can continue to live with myself."  Such a self-identity, self-worth condition is a widespread problem today, particularly among the youth.  I believe it's an inevitable result of not being connected with one's Creator.  The Christian who knows, understands, and appreciates their love and value from God does not have a basis for any such feelings.

As for your ghosts, I can't judge whether they're dreams, visions, or real appearances.  But, I am certain that the spirit world exists of both good angels and evil demons. The demons may taunt you if they know you're weak and vulnerable in your faith.  Next time you see them, try dismissing them loudly and boldly in the name of Jesus.  Don't be embarrassed to do so.  I think you might be impressed with the results.

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I am not inclined to join another church so much as just practice things which I think are good and moral and believe in God in the way I think is right. A lot of faiths think they are right and some don't even believe in Christ, like Hinduism and such. I spent my entire life being controlled and no longer wish to do that anymore. I've joined some exmormon groups in the past and a lot of them are atheist. I think personally that if I were to end up with someone I would either prefer an exmormon like myself or someone without religion as I couldn't take the condescending pity of one of the other Christian faiths. One thing I saw posted on the exmormon subreddit today was: Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but they are unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." I think that quote makes a lot of sense, and I do see couples who have left the church and end up together and understand how it's like for each other. I don't think you realize that it is not so easy to leave the Mormon church without dismissing God completely and most people outside the Church don't realize how difficult it is to walk away from it.

The ghost I saw last time, I did try dismissing him in the name of Christ which is when it faded away. It doesn't mean that it won't be back though. The results weren't so much impressing as they were relieving. I did not feel happy or spiritual when it left or that I was closer to God when it was gone, I merely felt an adrenaline rush from the fear of it being there. It's not an awe inspiring experience, it's a terrifying one. That was the fourth time I had seen it and sometimes it is hard to sleep at night knowing that it might come back. It doesn't make any sense to me though that they would appear and taunt me because of my lack of faith since there are plenty of atheists who have never seen ghosts, and the ghosts have never spoken to me before anyway. One time when it appeared it was as I woke up and I thought it was trying to kill me. I know you don't have answers but I guess I keep telling it to people in the hopes that someday someone will have an answer.

I personally don't think the answers will come to me so easy, but I do have a value system and a way of living that I think is right. I try to be a good person and be honest and truthful, but I don't think think that I will find any answers with any organized religion.

Zelazek said:

Mara - I can relate to most of that. Friendship is fragile. Sometimes you can make friendships in a particular environment like university or a workplace and then as soon as you leave that environment those friends fall by the wayside. I can certainly think of a few people I thought I was close to but who never wrote once I or they had left the shared environment. It's not always other people's fault. I have done it myself.
I think whoever said people care as long as it is rewarding to care was right. (Finished, thanks.) Personally I cannot stand bores. I try not to be a bore myself. When trying to make or maintain friendships, I always ask questions and show interest in people's opinions. Hopefully some shared interests will become apparent and you can build on that.
It's funny you grew up in a family of girls but have problems relating to women. I am the opposite. Family of boys with problems relating to male peers. Why is that? It could be intelligence. Intelligent people have fewer friends. Introversion. Introverts prefer their own company. Even so, friendship is something we all crave I think.

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I just felt very angry at the time and needed to vent. It turns out one of the coworkers that was ignoring me was out of town and ignoring everybody and I know that she struggles with mental health issues like I do. I have a problem with getting certain ideas in my head and if I don't find an outlet, I do something stupid.

I don't know if I am more intelligent than others. Maybe book intelligence, but other types not so much. I guess friendships are fragile usually and it can be hard to maintain them. I guess because I am an upfront person I expect others to be too. Maybe I have trouble with other women because I carry baggage because of difficult relationships with my sisters because of our rivalries. Idk, maybe I should work on that.

MaratheGray, your response is telling and complicated, but I'll comment if you're up for more, and if not, then you can kindly say so and I'll move on.

I can understand your desire to go it alone and avoid any church, organization, or group of people that might judge or attempt to control you.  I'd probably do the same if subjected to a bad church history of any kind.  I won't try to counter that feeling of yours at this time because I think there's something more important, and that is: choosing the right faith.

Your exmormon subreddit creed is an interesting philosophy that I've never heard before, and I can see how it would sound reasonable to any secular person and agreeable to most spiritual people.  In fact, most of the world's religions share the creed's main premise: that one gets to heaven by being good enough.  It's a faith-works system where, if there is a God, we work our way up to him by living a moral life.

Christianity is significantly different because it has God working his way down to us (through his manifested son and self Jesus).  It is THE way of us connecting with our Creator, and God has said that it is the only way to be saved.  Thus, we believe, accept, then change.  We're saved by faith, with moral virtue and good works coming afterwards as a result.  Both are important, but the first part is most critical.  As Jesus said:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

My point is, if Christianity is the world's one and only true religion, which I believe is the case, then living a good, moral life won't save your soul or be judged in the end as successful.  God, first and foremost, wants a relationship with you.  He created us for his pleasure, for his purpose, for his glory.  We don't appease him by being good and loving others if we reject him during our time here.

You're right in saying that I can't appreciate the difficulty in leaving a church that's shaped so much of one's life.  But, to reject a true world view, or a proper Godly faith in the process, is not a wise or rational reaction.  We both know that there are a multitude of world religions and churches teaching bad theology.  You've got a hundred hands reaching out for you begging for your allegiance, and it's understandable why you'd be resistent to grab another one after being slapped once.  So what to do? Let me offer this suggestion:

Accept the likelihood of God based upon the obvious design and amazing complexity of the universe and biological life around us (and if you want such evidence, I have it).  Accept the likelihood of the Bible's authority based upon the historical, archaeological, prophetic, and textual criticism evidence supporting it over all the others (and if you want such evidence, I have it).  Then accept that the God of the Bible, your Creator, wants to have a relationship with you.  This is the most important purpose for your existence here.  You can build an honest relationship with him and achieve eternal salvation without any church body intervening or controlling you.  Once achieving that, you may in time grow to learn that there are good churches and fellow believers that represent God's true church, just as there are good and bad people, organizations, companies, and countries to be found.

Finally, I have a possible, logical answer of why you might be tormented with demons while others aren't.  The Devil works on those who's hearts are empty or seeking - the ones he can win over.  Why should a demon waste his time or effort on an Atheist who's already volunteered for the dark side?  You obviously are on the fence, subject to influence.  Don't think though that you can avoid all religion.  You will choose a faith, even if it is Atheism, which is a world view faith based belief system.  Your choice likely has eternal consequences, so give it your time and attention.   

i care too much about too many people but things get lost in text.
I hear you and relate, the song fish out of water by opm comes to my mind.
in this disconnected era its hard to feel connected.

Sir Joseph, I know too many people who think they know the ultimate truth, some quite close to me, to go by a random internet stranger’s philosophy of truth. I think it’s presumptuous of you to assume what I do not know about religion and I don’t want to discuss it anymore. I really feel I don’t belong here and I’ll probably be leaving soon.

MaratheGray said:

Sir Joseph, I know too many people who think they know the ultimate truth, some quite close to me, to go by a random internet stranger’s philosophy of truth. I think it’s presumptuous of you to assume what I do not know about religion and I don’t want to discuss it anymore. I really feel I don’t belong here and I’ll probably be leaving soon.

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I just wanted to say, that I am sorry you are feeling like you don't belong here. I hope, that no matter where you go, you do find a place where you find at peace and like you belong. You're a pretty great person, and deserve that.

I also wanted to say, that no matter where you go, there's going to be people who are very sure about their life's stances, and what works. They are only approaching you with what has been their personal truth. No, you don't have to agree or discuss with them. But do know that they are approaching you from a loving place.