Incel - The Failure of the Modern Man

[Crimson Angel]

Typical MRA/PUA hot garbage. I'll admit I had a good laugh while reading this thread.

Michael, women are not entitled to have sex with you just because you consider yourself a loser. What you're utilizing is a scapegoating tactic - you wallow in your self-pity and you blame women for being too "shallow" for not choosing you over the "perfect" men, instead of focusing on how to improve yourself or accepting yourself for who you are. This is the whole basis of the entire incel group - entitled men who think the world should revolve around their own sexual needs without understanding the ideas of boundaries or that "no means no". If women are not into you, then they are not into you and nothing will change that. You are not oppressed if you cannot have sex with an attractive woman; nobody should be forced to have sex with you. Women are not trophies that you can earn, and if you learn to accept them as people then maybe you will understand why the incel communities are so toxic.

That being said, I'm very thankful that right now society is looking down at these problematic toxic masculinity groups like incel more and more. It's because of these groups that result in women being abused or murdered on a daily basis.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Now we have modern society keeping us alive only to despair and have terrible lives.

"Now we have modern society keeping us alive only to despair and have terrible lives.". Wow you really need to pick up a hobby and have interest in things if this if the perspective.  There is actually more to life than screwing or having a relationship.

The problem is, when you feel like this ceiling has been imposed on you, hobbies and interests just feel like empty distractions, ways to kill time and take the edge off of being frozen out.  That's why I don't like it when people say this, cause it's not really any consolation for never getting to experience what's supposed to be not only one of life's major joys, but also one that so many people seem to take as a given. It doesn't do anything to ease the feeling like one of life's special things is for other people, not you.  I'd much rather have a relationship with someone that I want, or maybe even any relationship, than some kind of time-kill.  Personally, I'd find it easier to enjoy hobbies and interests once I was in a relationship, and therefore had peace of mind that I would get to experience it, and wouldn't feel the fear that I'm forced to miss out and there's nothing I can do.  It would be a huge weight off of my mind.  

Even the ugliest, underachieving, horrible, mean, disgusting people find relationships. They just go about everything in such a different way. They don't just consider themselves, their genetics and everything about them, as a failure. Its pretty much as simple as that.

When you've never succeeded, or when nothing has ever happened to give you any kind of indication that there was any way you even could succeed, it's hard to feel like anything BUT a failure.  Or that you could ever be anything but a failure.  It's hard to summon confidence when you have nothing to be confident in, and no reason to justify that attitude.  

---

People lose out in said genetic lottery in various ways and the best way to deal with it is pragmatically in terms of efficient solutions. Providing a roadmap, motivation, small goals...working within one's limitations.

The problem is when nothing within one's limitations, is any good.  When even something basic, that a lot of people take for granted like having a relationship, falls outside of one's limitations.  It makes it hard to be motivated and goal-oriented and all that kind of stuff when nothing within one's limitations is motivating.  When that's your life, you don't know what to do.  It feels hopeless, like nothing you do will have any effect on anything.

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Your issues arent women, theyre yourselves. Point blank. Accept it and work on yourself, or keep crying about your perpetual blue balls.

I don't see why it can't be both.  Maybe some of the problem is due to things that guys may or may not have some ability to control.  But the other part really is what the majority of women tend to sexually select for, and I think a lot of these guys either have a hard time being those things, or can't be those things at all cause it's just not in them.  Either way, whenever I see someone write off struggling guys as "crying", it just seems kinda low to me.  No offense, just my two cents.

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Sit on your hand till it's numb...who the hell says that to people?

Since "sitting on one's hands" is a phrase that means "to do nothing about a problem or situation", I interpreted "sit on your hand til it's numb" to mean "do nothing about not being able to find a partner until you just don't care anymore", in other words, to just give up and resign yourself to your fate.  Then I saw that it was actually in the post.  Yeah, I agree, I also don't think that's a good strategy.  Some people don't want to just give up, but they don't know how to make it either.

---

Typical MRA/PUA hot garbage. I'll admit I had a good laugh while reading this thread.

Michael, women are not entitled to have sex with you just because you consider yourself a loser. What you're utilizing is a scapegoating tactic - you wallow in your self-pity and you blame women for being too "shallow" for not choosing you over the "perfect" men, instead of focusing on how to improve yourself or accepting yourself for who you are. This is the whole basis of the entire incel group - entitled men who think the world should revolve around their own sexual needs without understanding the ideas of boundaries or that "no means no". If women are not into you, then they are not into you and nothing will change that. You are not oppressed if you cannot have sex with an attractive woman; nobody should be forced to have sex with you. Women are not trophies that you can earn, and if you learn to accept them as people then maybe you will understand why the incel communities are so toxic.

That being said, I'm very thankful that right now society is looking down at these problematic toxic masculinity groups like incel more and more. It's because of these groups that result in women being abused or murdered on a daily basis.

Yes, I too enjoy a good laugh at the down-and-out.  There's nothing quite as fun as kicking a person when they're down, because other people's distress is just hilarious. My personal favorite is yelling at homeless people to get jobs, throwing empty champagne bottles at them, and speeding away in my Mercedes.  Got to remind the rabble of their natural place in the world, eh?

I must be having deja vu or something, but whenever I see anyone respond to this topic with the same old "entitlement..." thing, it irritates me because it makes me think, this person doesn't understand it and more than that, doesn't want to.  I always find it really ironic how guys who struggle with women are told to "see women as people" instead of sex objects, and yet, at the same time, no one seems to care to see these guys as people, instead of objects of inferiority.  Rather than being understood, they are invalidated, shamed, mocked, ridiculed, belittled, and demonized, just for wondering why nothing they were told worked out for them, or why something that so many people take for granted seems so out of reach, the fear of going their whole lives missing out on not only sex but a relationship, romance, that type of companionship and warmth, and how it hurts emotionally to feel that you'll never experience any of it because it's all for other people, not you, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're not one of the lucky special chosen ones that are just better than you. And **** a guy to hell if he thinks there is anything less than wholesome and wonderful about what a lot of women seem to select for in men.

The whole basis of the entire incel group isn't "entitled men blah blah...".  It's guys who grew up being told the wrong ideas about women and dating, if they were told anything at all.  I don't think it was intentional misleading, but instead it was people telling them what they thought was right or wanted to be right, but turned out to be wrong.  Or maybe what really was right or at least good enough for their day, but isn't anymore.  They weren't told the behaviors and personality types and all the other stuff that most women seem to go for, in fact, they may have even been told NOT to do those things. Or, they just may not be able to be the kinds of guys that most women seem to go for, at all. A lot of these guys are low in strength, money, cunning and Machiavellian intelligence, social status/popularity, don't have a socially dominant personality or have the need to mock others, don't feel a need to be antagonistic, cocky, witty, dark, vulgar, lewd and crude, "edgy", "dangerous", and offensive, and don't seem to be talented or gifted, not naturally good at anything. And they also seem to have less than average amounts of dumb luck. Instead they were told things like "be yourself", "be nice and sweet", "don't worry about fitting in and being cool", "it will just happen someday/when you're not looking/when you least expect it". Or they get told it's OK to talk about their problems, self-doubts, and insecurities, to not be afraid to be vulnerable, even though it turns most women off because it's seen as weakness. Or they get told "just be confident" but not confident in what, why, or how.  You accused OP of blaming women for being shallow, but that's the problem.  I imagine that a lot of guys were still being told "someone should like you for your personality instead of looks or money" or "it's what's on the inside that counts" or "girls will start liking other guys instead of the douchebags after high school, just wait" when OP was younger.  Then, when they've done everything they were ever told about how dating works but still nothing happens, guys like this get frustrated and more than that, lost. They don't know what to do, only that everything they were told doesn't work. The map leads to nowhere, but it's the only one they have.  And it's even worse to have to see everything seeming to work out great for the guys who do the kinds of things that people like OP were told not to. Sure, there's SOME randomness in attraction, but there are also a lot of things that when you look around, they tend to go the same way over and over, so telling someone that it's all random and that "one day it'll just happen" instead of specific do's and don'ts, I feel, is setting guys up for failure.

But when they vent about their frustration or confusion from a lifetime of unwittingly following bad advice, all they get is either shaming tactics, or some vague idea of "self-improvement".  I've barely seen anyone ever saying how, specifically, a guy should "improve".  By doing what?  Be BEING what?  What job, what lifestyle, what interests, etc. and why.  Cause just telling him to "improve" leads to what he said - he got better clothes, got in shape, but still nothing - now what?  Other guys do other things, they have hobbies and interests, they have decent jobs, and still nothing.  People are quick to judge guys like OP, but slow to offer any real, actionable solutions. That's one reason why I think people who default to shaming and "just self improve, bro" don't really care about helping, because it doesn't help.  Then there's the matter of whether or not OP and guys like him even CAN become more attractive, even if they try to be the kind of guy that most women seem to want.  Or if being those things is just something you have to be either born with or born into.  And the shrinking middle class isn't helping either, cause a lot of a guy's attractiveness seems tied to his level of power and status. There's so much more at play here than just one issue.

It just reminds me of the politicians who like to say things like "poor people just want handouts, they're lazy, they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" as if we could all just go into our garage and make the next Microsoft, but we just don't want to, because we'd rather sleep in and party.  It's a huge oversimplification that turns a blind eye to all the factors of the problem except the ones that fit a certain narrative, and comes off as willfully ignorant, smug, and haughty.  Very "I'm alright, Jack".    

And speaking of toxic masculinity, there are a lot of other kinds of guys that are much bigger contributors to the abuse and murder of women, not to mention general misogyny.  But nobody seems to care about this, because a lot of these guys are either rich, tough, "cool", or some combination, so not only do they get to slide, but women keep throwing themselves at guys like this in spite of it. And society doesn't just not look down on these guys, but instead it glorifies them, and has been forever. It really feels like the problem people have with incels isn't any kind of "toxic masculinity", but that they are seen as weak, and that's what people really have a problem with. That guys who are seen as weak, low-status, and unpopular dare to speak their minds, instead of meekly resigning themselves to their place. People seem to get really offended when those who are considered inferior criticize the social order, and rush to socially police them. But if you're strong, it seems like you can be as toxic as you want, and everyone will love you anyway. It's just like school - a popularity contest built around hot women and strong, rich, obnoxious, offensive, antagonistic, vulgar, lewd and crude guys.  I've said it before, I'll say it again, but it's almost as if a lot of women actually select FOR toxic masculinity, because might makes right and that's all that matters.  Meanwhile people have some fun kicking those they feel are weaker and therefore deserve it, and feeling like a big hero for it.  Because again, might makes right. That's how it looks to me.

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Because, of course, what anyone with troubles in relationships need is more self-righteous condemnation of themselves, even when it's justly deserved. Makes for great confidence boosters.

^ So much this.  +1 million.

ps - sorry for the text wall.  This gets heated.  A lot to say at once.  Idk.

 

[TheRealCallie]

^^you've had lots of text walls lately. Lol

In the end, it all boils down to yet another label people want to put on themselves.  Personally, I think that's a lot of the problem with today's world.  Everything has to be labeled. "Oh you aren't like every single other person in the world, here you go, you can be this.". It's honestly getting pretty ridiculous.  

 What happened to just being YOU.  That's the only label you need.  Everything else is really just excuses and/or attention whoring.

 

[TheSkaFish]

^^you've had lots of text walls lately. Lol

Blame it on the coffee. I'm a fanatical believer of the goddess Caffeina, and I'm always in church.

Obviously, I just felt compelled to write that rant. But sometimes I wonder if there isn't something else I could channel that energy and fury into besides ranting, something cooler. And if I could find it, then maybe I could stand a chance. I hope so but I don't know.

In the end, it all boils down to yet another label people want to put on themselves.  Personally, I think that's a lot of the problem with today's world.  Everything has to be labeled. "Oh you aren't like every single other person in the world, here you go, you can be this.". It's honestly getting pretty ridiculous.  

 What happened to just being YOU.  That's the only label you need.  Everything else is really just excuses and/or attention whoring.

I have to say, I do think there's some truth to this. I feel like OP should stop labeling himself an incel and not go to those forums anymore, and not worry about women working or whatever because that's not it. It's pretty easy to tell what my own situation is, but I don't label myself that and though I sifted through them briefly to get a sense of the people, I don't and haven't hung out at those places, and don't plan to. I don't think simply not labeling yourself something anymore will be a magic answer, but at the same time, taking up a negative label can't be good for you either.

 

[user 115627]

People lose out in said genetic lottery in various ways and the best way to deal with it is pragmatically in terms of efficient solutions. Providing a roadmap, motivation, small goals...working within one's limitations.

The problem is when nothing within one's limitations, is any good.  When even something basic, that a lot of people take for granted like having a relationship, falls outside of one's limitations.  It makes it hard to be motivated and goal-oriented and all that kind of stuff when nothing within one's limitations is motivating.  When that's your life, you don't know what to do.  It feels hopeless, like nothing you do will have any effect on anything.

That's why I said what I added at the end, essentially: Anybody can get a partner, but not everybody will. There is always the possibility that this failure truly is a fundamental part of yourself and that you cannot do anything about it, no matter how much you improve yourself. I have to say this because while I try to be encouraging, I don't want to send every lonely person on a wild goose chase of self-improvement and the search for their particular unicorn that might simply not exist or is just so far out of reach that it might as well not be real. Not that there is such a thing as perfection, but a compromise at all costs is no solution either. I don't want anybody to end up in the company of an abuser.

Beyond that there are so many compounding factors that you have little to no influence on beyond your genetics. Environment is a very limiting factor when you don't want to or can't just uproot yourself and go to a completely different place with other opportunities - which will in turn just create new challenges and limiting factors.

When your daily life is mostly the same you're banking on luck and coincidence anyway - kinda how I've lived in my new city for over three years but have not made any friends because I virtually don't go out. Where are opportunities even supposed to come from then? In that case it's self-limitation though, what little power an individual has over their own destiny. In most cases I also dived into hobbies or suggest such a thing to others who seem to hung up on these matters. Yet I do get everyone who eventually says: "I'm tired or playing video games, watching movies, working out, riding my bike or playing music (etc.)...I want to experience genuine companionship and intimacy in all those ways that seem so natural to others".

It's easy to tell people to keep their spirits up, to not succumb to self-hatred or scapegoating others, I know that. The issue of people looking for an identity and any kind of meaning is just piled on top of all that. In that mindset every promising idea and theory is as tempting as a bug zapper in the night. I'm hardly an inspirational person but all I can say is: don't succumb.

 

[Crimson Angel]

Yes, I too enjoy a good laugh at the down-and-out.  There's nothing quite as fun as kicking a person when they're down, because other people's distress is just hilarious.  My personal favorite is yelling at homeless people to get jobs, throwing empty champagne bottles at them, and speeding away in my Mercedes.  Got to remind the rabble of their natural place in the world, eh?

I must be having deja vu or something, but whenever I see anyone respond to this topic with the same old "entitlement..." thing, it irritates me because it makes me think, this person doesn't understand it and more than that, doesn't want to.  I always find it really ironic how guys who struggle with women are told to "see women as people" instead of sex objects, and yet, at the same time, no one seems to care to see these guys as people, instead of objects of inferiority.  Rather than being understood, they are invalidated, shamed, mocked, ridiculed, belittled, and demonized, just for wondering why nothing they were told worked out for them, or why something that so many people take for granted seems so out of reach, the fear of going their whole lives missing out on not only sex but a relationship, romance, that type of companionship and warmth, and how it hurts emotionally to feel that you'll never experience any of it because it's all for other people, not you, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're not one of the lucky special chosen ones that are just better than you.  And **** a guy to hell if he thinks there is anything less than wholesome and wonderful about what a lot of women seem to select for in men.

The whole basis of the entire incel group isn't "entitled men blah blah...".  It's guys who grew up being told the wrong ideas about women and dating, if they were told anything at all.  I don't think it was intentional misleading, but instead it was people telling them what they thought was right or wanted to be right, but turned out to be wrong.  Or maybe what really was right or at least good enough for their day, but isn't anymore.  They weren't told the behaviors and personality types and all the other stuff that most women seem to go for, in fact, they may have even been told NOT to do those things.  Instead they were told things like "be yourself", "be nice and sweet", "it will just happen someday/when you're not looking/when you least expect it".  Or they get told it's OK to talk about their problems, self-doubts, and insecurities, to not be afraid to be vulnerable, even though it turns most women off because it's seen as weakness.  Or they get told "just be confident" but not confident in what, why, or how.  You accused OP of blaming women for being shallow, but that's the problem.  I imagine that a lot of guys were still being told "someone should like you for your personality instead of looks or money" or "it's what's on the inside that counts" or "girls will start liking other guys instead of the douchebags after high school, just wait" when OP was younger.  Then, when they've done everything they were ever told about how dating works but still nothing happens, guys like this get frustrated and more than that, lost.  They don't know what to do, only that everything they were told doesn't work.  The map leads to nowhere, but it's the only one they have.  And it's even worse to have to see everything seeming to work out great for the guys who do the kinds of things that people like OP were told not to.  Sure, there's SOME randomness in attraction, but there are also a lot of things that when you look around, they tend to go the same way over and over, so telling someone that it's all random and that "one day it'll just happen" instead of specific do's and don'ts, I feel, is setting guys up for failure.  

But when they vent about their frustration or confusion from a lifetime of unwittingly following bad advice, all they get is either shaming tactics, or some vague idea of "self-improvement".  I've barely seen anyone ever saying how, specifically, a guy should "improve".  By doing what?  Be BEING what?  What job, what lifestyle, what interests, etc. and why.  Cause just telling him to "improve" leads to what he said - he got better clothes, got in shape, but still nothing - now what?  Other guys do other things, they have hobbies and interests, they have decent jobs, and still nothing.  People are quick to judge guys like OP, but slow to offer any real, actionable solutions.  That's one reason why I think people who default to shaming and "just self improve, bro" don't really care about helping, because it doesn't help.  Then there's the matter of whether or not OP and guys like him even CAN become more attractive, even if they try to be the kind of guy that most women seem to want.  Or if being those things is just something you have to be either born with or born into.  And the shrinking middle class isn't helping either, cause a lot of a guy's attractiveness seems tied to his level of power and status.  There's so much more at play here than just one issue.

It just reminds me of the politicians who like to say things like "poor people just want handouts, they're lazy, they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" as if we could all just go into our garage and make the next Microsoft, but we just don't want to, because we'd rather sleep in and party.  It's a huge oversimplification that turns a blind eye to all the factors of the problem except the ones that fit a certain narrative, and comes off as willfully ignorant, smug, and haughty.  Very "I'm alright, Jack".    

And speaking of toxic masculinity, there are a lot of other kinds of guys that are much bigger contributors to the abuse and murder of women, not to mention general misogyny.  But nobody seems to care about this, because a lot of these guys are either rich, tough, "cool", or some combination, so not only do they get to slide, but women keep throwing themselves at guys like this in spite of it.  And society doesn't just not look down on these guys, but instead it glorifies them, and has been forever.  It really feels like the problem people have with incels isn't any kind of "toxic masculinity", but that they are seen as weak, and that's what people really have a problem with.  That guys who are seen as weak, low-status, and unpopular dare to speak their minds, instead of meekly resigning themselves to their place.  People seem to get really offended when those who are considered inferior criticize the social order, and rush to socially police them.  But if you're strong, it seems like you can be as toxic as you want, and everyone will love you anyway.  It's just like school - a popularity contest built around hot women and strong, rich, obnoxious, offensive, antagonistic, vulgar, lewd and crude guys.  I've said it before, I'll say it again, but it's almost as if a lot of women actually select FOR toxic masculinity, because might makes right and that's all that matters.  Meanwhile people have some fun kicking those they feel are weaker and therefore deserve it, and feeling like a big hero for it.  Because again, might makes right. That's how it looks to me.

I don't know how the quote system works so pardon me if my response looks ugly.

Here's the thing - nobody is telling them that they're weak, low-status, or "inferior" aside from themselves. If they want to hang out with jerks then it's their prerogative. They will learn what the consequences are if they hang out with guys who treat them like crap.

Let's say that you DO end up convincing a woman not to date a jerk but to date you (who is not a jerk) instead. Do you honestly think the relationship will go well for the both of you? Do you REALLY want to date someone who will only judge you based on your "low status", weak, or "inferior" qualities, and you end up feeling miserable in the relationship?

See this is what I don't understand about Incel groups - why are those guys spending so much time and effort whining that they cannot get a date when they know that said date is not going to go well at all? If you have poor social skills you have poor social skills and nothing will ever change that. All you need to do is find someone who will accept you for who you are, even if it'll take a lot of time and effort doing so? Dating is not the same as getting a job; if you two don't click then you two don't click.

I also sense a double standard in your speech. You say that women are drawn to these "overly macho, tough, cool" dudes who treat women like crap. Aren't the guys in incel communities doing the same? You guys claim that all women are shallow, self-centred, disrespectful who treats these weak sickly men like crap, yet at the same time you are drawn to them and want to date them? If they don't accept you for who you are then don't date them!

When I say Incel members treat women like objects and trophies I literally mean it, and honestly I'd argue it's bad for both women and for those men. Because why else would they be spending so much time complaining that they couldn't date that hot supermodel-like chick that fell for that "cool jerk" over you? Why should your own self-worth be based on how many attractive women you sleep with? When a woman chooses someone you deem "undesirable" over you, that's not a big blow to your ego; in fact you should be thankful that she is leaving you alone. Unless your view is that women are your own personal trophies to be "won" over. Seriously this is the whole basis of toxic masculinity - the idea that just because you did A, B, and C and felt proud for doing them, that you deserve a hot woman as a prize, which is very messed up way of thinking at best.

I have quite possibly the worst social skill in the universe, and I'm attracted to women (I'm not male btw). If I date someone and I sense they're unwilling to accept who I am what do I do? Leave them and find someone else. It's not hard. I'm not going to wallow in my self-pity because I am who I am and nothing is ever going to change that.

 

[TheRealCallie]

They can change the fact that they have poor social skills. So saying nothing will change that is not true.

 

[Crimson Angel]

I'll admit I shouldn't have called it "poor" social skills. Whoopsies. Who are we to judge what socialization styles are "superior" and which are "inferior"? People communicate and socialize differently.

 

[ardour]

When I say Incel members treat women like objects and trophies I literally mean it, and honestly I'd argue it's bad for both women and for those men. Because why else would they be spending so much time complaining that they couldn't date that hot supermodel-like chick that fell for that "cool jerk" over you? Why should your own self-worth be based on how many attractive women you sleep with? When a woman chooses someone you deem "undesirable" over you, that's not a big blow to your ego; in fact you should be thankful that she is leaving you alone. Unless your view is that women are your own personal trophies to be "won" over. Seriously this is the whole basis of toxic masculinity - the idea that just because you did A, B, and C and felt proud for doing them, that you deserve a hot woman as a prize, which is very messed up way of thinking at best.

I have quite possibly the worst social skill in the universe, and I'm attracted to women (I'm not male btw). If I date someone and I sense they're unwilling to accept who I am what do I do? Leave them and find someone else. It's not hard. I'm not going to wallow in my self-pity because I am who I am and nothing is ever going to change that.

Another person using millennial  gen tropes of male entitlement and toxic masculinity. As a  woman  you have the option of  waiting until someone  comes along who accepts you for you, bad social skills and all, because of course there WILL be such a person. Your insecurities are not as much of a problem or an indelible turn off.

It might be more or less correct to say that   Incels carry an attitude of thinking they deserve supermodel trophies, or view women as sex doll servants who should worship them etc,  but this  isn't limited to men  unsuccessful with dating nor does it describe the attitudes of most socially awkward men either.  Awkward   men are alone because of the  dynamic between men and women. It's your gender that is responsible for this through partner preferences that deem less masculine men completely unattractive/undateable/boring.

"Leave them and find someone else. It's not hard for me" - Fixed that.

 

[Crimson Angel]

Another person using millennial  gen tropes of male entitlement and toxic masculinity. As a woman  you have the option of waiting until someone  comes along who accepts you for you, bad social skills and all, because of course there WILL be such a person. Your insecurities are not as much of a problem or an indelible turn off.

It might be more or less correct to say that Incels carry an attitude of thinking they deserve supermodel trophies, but this  isn't limited to men who are unsuccessful with dating nor does it describe the attitudes of most socially awkward men either.  Awkward  men are alone because of the dynamic between men and women. It's mainly your gender that is responsible for this through partner preferences that deem less masculine men completely unattractive/undateable/boring etc.

On the flip side women who end up having a lot of men dating them are more likely to experience violence, rape, sexual assault, etc. from these men. It takes a long time to find out if someone is truthful and genuine to you because there are situations where he might APPEAR to be like that but ends up treating you as a token instead. We have to weed people out, and it can really be backbreaking doing so.

See this is another instance of how you and the Incel members are illustrating male privilege. Whereas you guys complain that you are not getting any attention from women, we women have to worry about real issues such as being raped or sexually assaulted by men who do give us attention. The fact that the Incel members are so oblivious to this idea really illustrates how utterly laughable and trivial their struggles are. You are not oppressed if women do not want to have sex or have a relationship with you. If I were to choose between being left alone or being stalked by a group of male strangers, I would definitely choose the former. Seriously it's a good thing that they are unwilling to date you, because if you keep trying and keep searching you will eventually find somebody who will connect with you. Because if they did date you I'll guarantee that you'll have a very miserable experience.

 

[ardour]

Another person using millennial  gen tropes of male entitlement and toxic masculinity. As a  woman  you have the option of  waiting until someone  comes along who accepts you for you, bad social skills and all, because of course there WILL be such a person. Your insecurities are not as much of a problem or an indelible turn off.

It might be more or less correct to say that   Incels carry an attitude of thinking they deserve supermodel trophies, but this  isn't limited to men who are unsuccessful with dating nor does it describe the attitudes of most socially awkward men either.  Awkward   men are alone because of the  dynamic between men and women. It's mainly your gender that is responsible for this  through partner preferences that deem less masculine men completely unattractive/undateable/boring etc.

On the flip side women who end up having a lot of men dating them are more likely to experience violence, rape, sexual assault, etc. from these men. It takes a long time to find out if someone is truthful and genuine to you because there are situations where he might APPEAR to be like that but ends up treating you as a token instead. We have to weed people out, and it can really be backbreaking doing so.

See this is another instance of how you and the Incel members are illustrating male privilege. Whereas you guys complain that you are not getting any attention from women, we women have to worry about real issues such as being raped or sexually assaulted by men who do give us attention. The fact that the Incel members are so oblivious to this idea really illustrates how utterly laughable and trivial their struggles are. You are not oppressed if women do not want to have sex or have a relationship with you. If I were to choose between being left alone or being stalked by a group of male strangers, I would definitely choose the former. Seriously it's a good thing that they are unwilling to date you, because if you keep trying and keep searching you will eventually find somebody who will connect with you. Because if they did date you I'll guarantee that you'll have a very miserable experience.

You don't have to weed anyone out. If you feel oppressed or in serious danger, then don't date.  Spend your life alone like so many "privileged" men are having to. No-one's forcing you into relationships with men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Men get raped and abused too...

 

[Crimson Angel]

^^I agree, they definitely do, but have any Incel members or PUA communities focused on consent, respecting boundaries, or rape/sexual assault issues? Have any Incel members spoke out about being raped or sexually assaulted by a woman (or men) so others can talk about their experiences? Nope, all Incel members talk about is how oppressed they are that women are leaving them alone, and how they're so sad and hopeless that they can't have sex or get a date with an attractive woman. I would love to see Incel communities evolve and focus more on important issues like consent, boundaries, rape, sexual assault, etc. but due to toxic masculinity so prevalent within those communities I doubt it would ever happen.

There definitely SHOULD be more rape shelters or domestic violence shelters for men that's something I can totally agree on.

 

[user 115627]

Yeah, I also think the "women have to worry about real issues" argument only works when you consider rape and sexual assault worries that only women have, that are superior to all other issues and that they are the only worries in the first place, not considering that men might face other challenges in weeding out if they even have the chance to do so. I despise the privilege talk because there's two sides to every coin. The fact aside that men get abused and raped too, in having fewer opportunities (heterosexual - for simplicity) men might be more likely to desperately pick a woman who is only after their money, psychologically/physically abusive or only looking for a sperm donor. Something that an Incel might easily turn a blind eye to and a mindset that I have always advocated against because bad company is worse than none.

I think that while Incels occasionally utilize men's rights rhetoric they can't exactly speak about the experience of getting raped or abused by anybody because they don't really meet anybody. I can't say the same about PUAs since they're usually on the tradcon side that thinks that men can't get raped anyway or "enjoy it" because there is nothing as high in their hierarchy as experiencing the magic vagina. Their successes are vastly overrated anyway. The same might go for a number of Incels and while they are usually involved in a blame game, this will not prevent them pedestalizing the experience.  I will refrain from using terms like toxic masculinity to describe the totality of this behavior. Anyways, misery loves company and I don't see an evolution happening in these specific communities for that reason. Some walk the walk though, even non-feminists. Personally I just try to stay away from most of these labels and identities because it always comes at the cost of the individual's fate.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not to mention that there are also female incels.

 

[user 115627]

Not to mention that there are also female incels.

True. I've also found an article about a gay incel recently and it's interesting to see the parallels but also the differences. Whatever specifics may contribute to the development of that mindset, I think it will spread further.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not to mention that there are also female incels.

True. I've also found an article about a gay incel recently and it's interesting to see the parallels but also the differences. Whatever specifics may contribute to the development of that mindset, I think it will spread further.

Yeah, I was reading about the gay incels when the Incel debate thread was going on. 

It's not just about guys.  It's not a competition.  Males and females both have issues.  It's not really a gender thing.  It's a life thing.  Life isn't a **** competition.  Not between males and females, not between lonely and not lonely, not between black or white, not between anything.
But, until these people (and everyone else with issues) comes to terms with that, there's not much anyone can do. 

There is a lot women can do to protect themselves, but yes, it does still happen.
There is a lot men can do to be rejected less, but yes, it does still happen.

 

[Xpendable]

Several points to address here:

- Incel, PUA, MRA, MGTOW are all very different and independent lines of thought. Sometimes they can intertwine, but the basic core concepts are not the same and more often than not they collide. To say they are the same is blatant ignorance and laziness.

- Saying you are an incel doesn't inherently means you want to put women on concentration camps or that you believe that sex is owed to you. Again, this statement is offensively stupid and anyone who uses it should not be taken seriously.

- Yes, women are, with almost no failure, able to decide what attracts them and what doesn't in a fraction of a second. They often don't know or can explain why are attracted to certain traits, but they are genetically predisposed to be attracted to them at an unconscious level.

- The pay gap has been debunked since 1980. And has been debunked a million times again till the present.

- Yes, the failure of men didn't happen because of women entering the workforce. It actually was an effect of the sexual revolution. With the increase of sex partners in women, they preoggresively became less and less willing to settle for the usual relationships they had in the past. They have become pickier and at the same time more promiscuous because they now have more sex but with a small part of the male population. There have been reports of a massive decrease in sex frequency in millennial men since 2008; just in the time of the social media revolution.
- To be a female incel you should be rejected by the elephant man. So it has to be seen if they can exist.

- Self-improvement is what people tell you when they don't have an answer. It's a loop made to not admitting it won't make you more attractive. You improve but you don't get results, it must mean you lack something else, so you start in that area. "I'm now fit, social and have hobbies but I'm still alone", so they go: "oh, but you haven't done X, Y or Z" and then repeat ad nauseam.

- Validation is a general human need. You cannot and repeat CANNOT live by validating yourself. That doesn't work. Confidence comes from others making you aware you are good at something. You cannot feel confident with no indication or proof of having a certain skill, you cannot assert you are attractive while not a single person has ever recognized you as such. Even living happily by yourself must come from the indication you are a competent human being, and that can only be achieved by external input.

- It's not women's fault, yet their way of life actively benefits from maintaining this system.

- It's not men's fault, yet it has to be framed as such so the system can be perpetuated.

- No woman can accurately come close to even comprehend the feeling of being one of those men. So any advice has to be heavily scrutinized for the mere fact they can't avoid applying their own point of view to an issue that's alien to them; even if they have good intentions.

- Anything Callie says, the opposite will be true. This is a natural law.

- This post will remain after Sci-fi unilaterally decides this thread is "not constructive" anymore.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Here's the thing - nobody is telling them that they're weak, low-status, or "inferior" aside from themselves.

You don't have to.  You can imply something without saying it directly.  And actions speak louder than words.  When you look around and see things happen more or less the same way, and hear people talk and have more or less the same stories, you can see how things really are no matter what someone says or doesn't say.

Let's say that you DO end up convincing a woman not to date a jerk but to date you (who is not a jerk) instead. Do you honestly think the relationship will go well for the both of you? Do you REALLY want to date someone who will only judge you based on your "low status", weak, or "inferior" qualities, and you end up feeling miserable in the relationship?

Yeah actually, I think it might.  If someone could just see past the fact that I'm not a professional entertainer, rich party boy, smooth-talking cool-and-cocky guy, sarcastic and mocking "witty banter" *******, or a "badass", and if they see my other qualities and similar interests, AND yes, if I do some self-improvement and it actually works, then yes I think it could work, and no, I don't think I or even they would feel miserable in the relationship - ironically, if they would "see me as a person".  If they would let me be more than just what I'm not.  Your crowd always says there's more to women than looks, well, there's more to me and other guys than a lack of hyper-masculinity.

I'm willing to at least try to fit myself into someone else's world, if there's at least something I like about it.  And I might not know what certain women think is fun or "cool", but I'd at least be willing to try it.  Because there's nothing going on for me staying like this.  If I keep doing the same, I'm going to be waiting for someone to "accept me as I am" for the rest of my life.  Based on the way things have gone, there's no reason to think anything else.  And some of the changing to fit in with someone else could be good things a person should be doing anyway.

Besides, it might be hard, and I'm skeptical until I see it, but theoretically it's possible I could self-improve out of being completely low-status.  So it could be wrong for a person to judge me as having no potential, when I might have at least a little more than this.  

See this is what I don't understand about Incel groups - why are those guys spending so much time and effort whining that they cannot get a date when they know that said date is not going to go well at all? If you have poor social skills you have poor social skills and nothing will ever change that. All you need to do is find someone who will accept you for who you are, even if it'll take a lot of time and effort doing so? Dating is not the same as getting a job; if you two don't click then you two don't click.

Whatever happened to "self-improvement"?  Now it's "don't complain about not being able to get a date, because you wouldn't be good at dating anyway and nothing will change that so just resign yourself to a life of working and empty distractions".  Well, we can't just flip a switch and become asexual, turn off the desire for physical and romantic companionship, turn off the desire for a normal part of life and turn off the hurt from being shut out of it.      

And what is really meant by social skills anyway?  Cause it isn't just talking.  It isn't even talking about common interests or views.  It's something else, and I think what "social skills" seems to really mean is "dominance".  Especially verbally.  Acting cool and cocky, acting edgy, acting like you're better than everyone else, the game of insults and comebacks, and making sexual innuendoes.

I also sense a double standard in your speech. You say that women are drawn to these "overly macho, tough, cool" dudes who treat women like crap. Aren't the guys in incel communities doing the same? You guys claim that all women are shallow, self-centred, disrespectful who treats these weak sickly men like crap, yet at the same time you are drawn to them and want to date them? If they don't accept you for who you are then don't date them!

These guys are drawn to women because...they're not homosexual or asexual.  Like the majority of men.  Also it's possible to like women for other qualities (and no, I don't mean just looks either), but dislike how they seem to sexually select.  But if these guys only date people who accept them for who they are, then they don't date, period.  

And I didn't say that I thought ALL women were COMPLETELY shallow either.  Or even that they are more shallow than men.  I don't think they are.  But, I do think it's a part of how attraction/sexual selection works most of the time.  I do think that a lot of women, in general, are attracted to strength and are contemptuous of weakness, whether that weakness is real or perceived.  It's not even just weakness or being sickly, it could simply be a lack of hyper-masculinity - a lack of the aggressive, antagonistic, cold, competitive, hierarchical, socially dominant personality.  Not having this personality, is something that gets perceived as weakness.  All you have to do is look around to see how it is.  Guys with this personality get casual sex, dates, romantic relationships and even marriages with ease.  Guys who don't have this personality, pretty much have to hope/wish/pray that some woman chooses them for whatever reason.  I really think it's because hyper-masculine men are considered more attractive because their behavior is more primal.  They're the ones who would have succeeded most in the law of the jungle, before civilization.  Guys who are less primal are considered "tame", weaker, boring, and therefore unattractive.  I think civilization is at odds with how attraction works, but not everyone can be the raw, primal man because it's not in them and/or it doesn't make any sense for them to be.  

When I say Incel members treat women like objects and trophies I literally mean it, and honestly I'd argue it's bad for both women and for those men. Because why else would they be spending so much time complaining that they couldn't date that hot supermodel-like chick that fell for that "cool jerk" over you? Why should your own self-worth be based on how many attractive women you sleep with? When a woman chooses someone you deem "undesirable" over you, that's not a big blow to your ego; in fact you should be thankful that she is leaving you alone. Unless your view is that women are your own personal trophies to be "won" over. Seriously this is the whole basis of toxic masculinity - the idea that just because you did A, B, and C and felt proud for doing them, that you deserve a hot woman as a prize, which is very messed up way of thinking at best.

A lot of dominant "socially correct" men actually talk about and treat women like objects and trophies, and in fact, a lot of women eagerly submit to being objectified by these men.  Plenty of these men also either physically or at least verbally abuse women all the time too.  And then there's the players.  You can't possibly say that they care about women's personalities, or that they don't objectify women.  But strangely, no one seems to mind.

You're also making a pretty big assumption that everyone wants "the hot supermodel-like chick", or that everyone cares about the number of women they sleep with.  That's not true.    It's not that they can't date the supermodel, or that they even want her.  It's that they can't date, at all.  It's about just wanting a normal relationship with a woman they are attracted to, and getting to experience a normal part of life instead of being totally frozen out of it, like it's some kind of gated community.  That's the problem with your crowd.  You try to make all struggling men fit your "entitlement" narrative, instead of actually listening to how these guys really feel and even really are.  

I have quite possibly the worst social skill in the universe, and I'm attracted to women (I'm not male btw). If I date someone and I sense they're unwilling to accept who I am what do I do? Leave them and find someone else. It's not hard. I'm not going to wallow in my self-pity because I am who I am and nothing is ever going to change that.

That's the thing.  For one, it sounds like you're a woman who dates women, so that whole dynamic could be very different than what attracts most straight women to straight men.  Your social skills, whatever that entails, might not be that much of a factor.  And for two, you're coming from a place of being so sure that you'll just find someone else, like it's nothing.  It sounds like you've been good enough for someone before, so you can safely assume you'll be good enough for someone again.  These guys don't have the luxury of that kind of certainty.  For all they know, nothing's worked for them before, including dumb luck, so why would anything work for them later?  What could change, to cause a change in the outcome?  If you feel you're going to meet someone eventually, or don't care if you ever meet anyone again, great.  But you can't tell others that they should feel that way.

See this is another instance of how you and the Incel members are illustrating male privilege. Whereas you guys complain that you are not getting any attention from women, we women have to worry about real issues such as being raped or sexually assaulted by men who do give us attention. The fact that the Incel members are so oblivious to this idea really illustrates how utterly laughable and trivial their struggles are.
...
Seriously it's a good thing that they are unwilling to date you, because if you keep trying and keep searching you will eventually find somebody who will connect with you. Because if they did date you I'll guarantee that you'll have a very miserable experience.

You can't guarantee that these guys will find anyone to connect with them whether they keep searching or not. You could at least as easily never find anyone that will connect with you ever, especially when that's the way things have always gone, and there's no reason for it to ever go any differently when that's been your life. If you're on the less masculine side, most women have their walls up by default, think you're weak and boring and can't ever be anything else, and that they're better than you and look down on you like you're an inherently lesser person.  And you can't guarantee that they would have a miserable experience if they did date someone they wanted to date.  

Male loneliness is a real issue, and calling it trivial and laughable is incredibly rude and insensitive, not to mention a "privileged" attitude.  Just because something doesn't involve rape or murder doesn't invalidate someone else's problems.  You act like these men are complaining that they will never experience life as a billionaire, when in fact they're talking about never getting to experience one of the basic experiences of life, that other people never give a second thought to.  If you're saying that shouldn't affect you, I question your humanity.  You can't just presume to tell someone to switch that part of them off, and be content with living like a machine.

---

Another person using millennial  gen tropes of male entitlement and toxic masculinity. As a  woman  you have the option of  waiting until someone  comes along who accepts you for you, bad social skills and all, because of course there WILL be such a person. Your insecurities are not as much of a problem or an indelible turn off.

It might be more or less correct to say that   Incels carry an attitude of thinking they deserve supermodel trophies, or view women as sex doll servants who should worship them etc,  but this  isn't limited to men  unsuccessful with dating nor does it describe the attitudes of most socially awkward men either.  Awkward   men are alone because of the  dynamic between men and women. It's your gender that is responsible for this through partner preferences that deem less masculine men completely unattractive/undateable/boring.

"Leave them and find someone else. It's not hard for me" - Fixed that.

+1.  
I don't even really think incels carry an attitude of deserving supermodels, I mean, maybe some do, but I think it's more like, "why can't I attract anyone ever?  Why did nothing I was told work?  Why doesn't it 'just happen' like it does for **** near everyone else? And what, if anything, can I do to get out of this?"  They just don't get it.  I don't think that women are really "responsible" for their preferences any more than men are, it's just the way nature works. And for guys who can't fit into those partner preferences, the system is shitty. But I don't see why people find that offensive. It's not like they don't like the way it is, or would like for things to be different, or feel guilty about it. They don't care. So I don't know why they can't just let struggling guys vent in peace.

Like, I don't know what is considered "cool" for how to act, what to do, and so on.  I don't know these things instinctively or feel any need to do them myself.  But I'd be willing to at least TRY to not be "boring" for someone, if I even knew where to start and they at least gave me a chance.  Assuming we're talking just activities here.  I'm not doing stuff that wouldn't make any sense for me to do.  But still, I think that leaves a lot of room for me to at least try to be more than I am, if someone will let me.

---

Life isn't a **** competition. 

See, I used to think so.  For one, I never was really able to compete because I didn't feel like I had a lot of natural advantages or gifts, and I just wasn't a competitive person, so I could comfort myself in saying that competing was primitive and not how it had to be and I could ignore it or be above it.  Play my own game.  But more and more, it's really started to feel like life really is just the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest.  Maybe not as brutally as in the animal world, or how it used to be, but that's still how it seems.  People don't like to think so, because it isn't nice, polite, or civilized.  But if people even think you're weak, they don't care about you, whether you are or not, or even if it's something you can fix.  In fact, it's like "kick the weak boy" is ingrained deep in the human mind.  It's all over the place in society, even this thread is proof of that.

There is a lot men can do to be rejected less, but yes, it does still happen.

I think that's really what a lot of guys on here, and in the incel spaces, would like to know.  What can they do to be more attractive, and be rejected less?  There are some easy ones like have a job, don't be obese, and have good hygiene, but there seems to be a lot more to it than that.  All they know is, what they grew up being told didn't work, and it doesn't just fall into place like it seems to for almost everyone else.

Then there's stuff like, women tend not to like guys who complain, and tend to like guys that at least act like things are going their way.  I'm not saying that's a woman thing, I know most people in general are like this.  But what if that just hasn't been your life?  It's hard to act like things usually go your way, when they usually don't.

 

[TheSkaFish]

- Self-improvement is what people tell you when they don't have an answer. It's a loop made to not admitting it won't make you more attractive. You improve but you don't get results, it must mean you lack something else, so you start in that area. "I'm now fit, social and have hobbies but I'm still alone", so they go: "oh, but you haven't done X, Y or Z" and then repeat ad nauseam.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of, that self-improvement as the answer is some kind of placebo, false hope, a sham.  Getting fit, even more social (I have, and have had friends for a long time), and have hobbies but am still alone.  Then doing X, Y, Z, blah, and yada, and nothing ever changes, no women ever notice or care, for the rest of my life.  Cause without the "dangerous" edge or cocky, "witty banter" or smooth-talk, it's like you have no emotional charge, your personality comes off as flat.  I don't know, man.

- Confidence comes from others making you aware you are good at something. You cannot feel confident with no indication or proof of having a certain skill, you cannot assert you are attractive while not a single person has ever recognized you as such.  

+1.  And that's why I'm so concerned about being untalented.  Cause without something to be good at, there isn't much you can be confident in.  Other than being macho, that's like the shortcut around that.  But, that's not the answer for everyone either.

- Saying you are an incel doesn't inherently means you want to put women on concentration camps or that you believe that sex is owed to you. Again, this statement is offensively stupid and anyone who uses it should not be taken seriously.

+ 1 million. They sure do love that story, though. It's so frustrating how they refuse to accept that not all guys who have a hard time with attraction are like this, or are fat, unhygienic, wear fedoras and other excessively nerdy and unfashionable things, and use those stupid, stereotypically nerdy terms. Some people are otherwise normal-enough guys, but who just can't ever seem to be good enough.