Incels - A Symptom of Sick Social System

[ardour]

Honestly, I was never a momma's boy per se, but my mother absolutely helped to shape what I became.
The constant badgering, name calling, berating, nitpicking, etc..
She was a controlling, manipulative, narcissist.
Thought her world should revolve around her.
She resented the hell out of my father and was bitter and nasty because of it.
I don't consider myself a "momma's boy" as those guys deep down love their mothers and still want to be with them.
They talk to them and confide in them.
I, quite frankly, hated her. I never spoke to her about anything meaningful or told her anything about my life.
I left when I felt I had saved enough money from my first IT job (I had just turned 24) and I often went months without so much as calling my parents. 24 was too late though. I should have left much earlier, but my parents liked that I was under their thumb and did not train me to be the type that would leave home early. My father even once said to me "you would be lost without us". That made leaving home, with no notice mind you, and then not calling them for almost a year very, very sweet. They only found me because my sister tracked me down from my bank statements in California (from opening my mail and seeing my ATM withdrawals).
One of my biggest regrets in life was not telling my parents that I was relegated to b@nging hookers since 19.
That THAT is what they raised.
My 2nd biggest regret was not knowing that my mother and sister had cut me out of the will. NOT because of the money, but because I never got the opportunity scream "FU" in my mother's face at the top of my lungs, and have the satisfaction of seeing the look on her face when realizing that she would eventually die without ever seeing me again.

‘Controlling mother’ might have been better.

My mother was far from a controlling narcissist, but she was overbearing at times, had major issues stemming from my father and had developed an ultra-conservative outlook by the time I knew her as a teen and adult. I got the impression I wasn’t expected to ever leave home, date, transition in to adulthood like a 'normie.' I also got the impression I was being monitored to make sure I didn’t turn out like him. Believe me you do not want details on what that means.

I was also brought up with 1950s 'seen, not heard' attitude towards children, which put me in a bad situation with regards to coping with other brattish kids brought up the opposite way. Humiliations at school just made things far worse as far as social anxiety goes. Psychopaths is how I'd describe those people at school.

Fact is we lack certain qualities. I can see it in the way you guys write. It’s far too dry. If this is how you communicate with the opposite sex then there's a big part of the issue.

 

[TheSkaFish]

That part I like.
Like in the 50s where a guy could support a family working as an assistant mgr in a retail store or something.

That, and/or college was less insanely expensive.

I think I would have always been happier in an educated role, regardless of the era I live in.

Being in uneducated work just makes me feel lousy about myself, makes me feel stupid, inferior, like some kind of inherent servant incapable of achievement and predisposed to losing/sucking/failing at everything, because being timid/servile/submissive is just baked into my DNA.

The need to do better is as much for me, as it is to attract women. I need to know I'm at least "OK".

And, it goes without saying that hating oneself is a major turnoff.

 

[Unsigned]

I was also brought up with 1950s 'seen, not heard' type values and attitudes towards children which put me in a bad situation with regards to coping with other brattish kids who were brought the opposite way. Humiliations at school just made things far worse as far as social anxiety goes. Psychopaths, is how I'd describe them.

Fact is we lack certain qualities. I can see it in the way you guys write. It’s far too dry. If this is how you communicate with the opposite sex then there's a big part of the issue.

These things above are all too true for me as well.
I was raised to be a "nice quiet boy" by parents who were a tad older than the parents of the other boys my age.
And I got eaten alive because of it.

I didn't "rebel" until I was 19, and that was far too late.

I never thought about it but you are 100% right about the writing style.
Just compare us to Richard39 or Apex's style.
They are "fun guys" who you can tell do well with girls.

 

[ardour]

Just compare us to Richard39 or Apex's style.
They are "fun guys" who you can tell do well with girls.

Heh... I was about to say that.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Riffing off the last 10 posts or so. @TheSkaFish I feel where you are coming from; except, I sort of reject the idea of, 'accomplishment and doing things.'

I may do so at my own peril, because, my contemporaries are or will be, accomplished; and I may have to compete with them. But, I don't reject the idea outright.

I think you've mislabeled the root of the problem; confused a symptom with a cause. And this speaks to what @Mr Preuss is talking about, when generalizing about the opposite sex.

Character

A person without character, is like an extra in a movie. They aren't as noticeable. Whether you are a supposed, 'bad boy,' with a wrap sheet, leather jacket, and motorcycle. Or, you're very involved with your church, and well admired. The accomplishments you speak of, can, but won't necessarily, add character to a person.

And this is what I believe @Mr Preuss is lamenting in the opposite sex. You want women of character, where there seems to be none, or perhaps is none, in your experience. A woman of grace perhaps. A woman of intellect. A woman of passion. Some one with character. Some one who has more than a, 'what can you do for me,' attitude.

@Unsigned for example. If I may speak to higher experience, in matters of the world. You display, 'character.' You speak of, and to, regrets. Yet, you are unashamed and speak frankly, with honesty behind it (sometimes a little too frank, heh). Someone could write you as a character into an interesting book, easy.

And that's the thing about character. You can't go out and buy it. You can't build it at the gym, like muscles (well maybe you can, they do call some things, 'character building'). It's what you get when life scars you. It's that twinkle in your eye, when you catch a glimpse of pure uncut, beauty. It's your smiles, and your cries. It's that awful knock on the head, from wisdom's walking stick, letting you know, 'you f'd up.' When you honestly, have a good laugh at yourself. When you dance like no one's looking. Etc..

Because, apart from visual indicators of fitness for breeding and all that, status, wealth, and all that; we admire or disdain in others, their character traits. A man can lose or win; but, he can lack character either way. He can have it in either situation as well. As @Mr Preuss points out, too much convenience, drains character. Nothing fought for, nothing earned. And likewise, like a steak that is all gristle and bone, and no meat, too much striving, can being a character drain as well. Spending all your days grinding, and slaving away, cheapens the value of the human spirit.

...My thoughts anyway. I think it's an optimal way to view things. It levels the playing field a bit. Some one could spend a million dollars and waste it all. While another could spend one single dollar and perhaps make a world of a difference.

 

[user 139760]

Heh... I was about to say that.

Gee, thanks guys.
Or, you know, maybe it's just that, when I see a cute girl, I don't automatically honeysuckle my pants and start thinking on how she'd never date a guy like me. Then blame her and the entirety of womenkind or how "it's not my fault, it's society".
Or, as Tropical up there more eloquently put it than I ever could, show some character. Because you all have some. Won't be able to convince me otherwise. Use it.
Let me put it this way; if I was walking in a conversation between a bunch of girls, however plain or cute they would be, holding the same arguments I been reading on this thread, you couldn't pay me enough to date them.
The reverse is also true.
Instead of lamenting, try doing.

Also, I was a fat, geeky, nerdy young man into Star Trek and Dungeons and Dragons....yeah, i was one of the "fun" guys...
On paper, Unsigned should be about 100 times more successful than I am. He's rich, I'm poor, he's taller, he exercises and obviously isn't afraid of his own opinions. So what's his problem? Himself. At least he says it and acknowledges it.
My problem is I've been single a looong ass time, had way more pressing problems to handle that made dating extremely tertiary and the women I've met so far haven't impressed me in the least. Takes a helluva lot more than a pretty face to turn my head. Pretty faces are a dime a dozen in this town. People I find interesting, not so much. The very few I have met were unavailable.

 

[Unsigned]

@Unsigned for example. If I may speak to higher experience, in matters of the world. You display, 'character.' You speak of, and to, regrets. Yet, you are unashamed and speak frankly, with honesty behind it (sometimes a little too frank, heh). Someone could write you as a character into an interesting book, easy.

Thanks.
I've certainly been called an "interesting character" more than once...

 

[ardour]

Gee, thanks guys.
Or, you know, maybe it's just that, when I see a cute girl, I don't automatically honeysuckle my pants and start thinking on how she'd never date a guy like me. Then blame her and the entirety of womenkind or how "it's not my fault, it's society".
Or, as Tropical up there more eloquently put it than I ever could, show some character. Because you all have some. Won't be able to convince me otherwise. Use it.
Let me put it this way; if I was walking in a conversation between a bunch of girls, however plain or cute they would be, holding the same arguments I been reading on this thread, you couldn't pay me enough to date them.
The reverse is also true.
Instead of lamenting, try doing.

Also, I was a fat, geeky, nerdy young man into Star Trek and Dungeons and Dragons....yeah, i was one of the "fun" guys...

I wouldn’t either. That’s why there’s anonymous spaces like this, though, they serve a purpose. Would you tell a woman who has known nothing but mistreatment from men to stop the self-defeating attitude and show some courage? You'd show more tact. I’m not comparing our situations to that, but you can’t just expect a healthy mindset to result from exclusively negative feedback.

 

[user 190541]

Thinking about it, I could definitely see Unsigned in a Balzac novel. Something along the lines of the reactionary lesser aristocrat who bangs all the top prostitutes of Paris while he complains about Napoleon and secretly works for the restoration of the Bourbon dynasty.

 

[user 139760]

I wouldn’t either. That’s why there’s anonymous spaces like this, though, they serve a purpose. Would you tell woman who has known nothing but mistreatment from men to stop the self-defeating attitude and show some courage? You'd show more tact. I’m not comparing our situations to that, but you can’t just expect a healthy mindset to result from exclusively negative feedback.

It depends on exactly what I'm hearing and how and why. I actually HAVE done exactly that in the past once, because it's what she needed to hear. A system shock. It forced her to reassess herself and shake herself up. Because she was stuck in a loop of constant self-lamenting.
You have control over your own mindset. The more you negate yourself, the more negative will come out.
Then again, I'm the guy who doesn't know when to quit. For whatever it's worth. I don't let things stop me. I don't stop at rejection, because I know for a fact there's someone out there for everyone. It's a matter of finding it. X rejects you? Move on. No sense in dwelling. No sense in calling it out, either. People are people. Some are great, others are 7 levels of insane.
Wether they be men OR women.

 

[ardour]

It depends on exactly what I'm hearing and how and why. I actually HAVE done exactly that in the past once, because it's what she needed to hear. A system shock. It forced her to reassess herself and shake herself up. Because she was stuck in a loop of constant self-lamenting.
You have control over your own mindset. The more you negate yourself, the more negative will come out.
Then again, I'm the guy who doesn't know when to quit. For whatever it's worth. I don't let things stop me. I don't stop at rejection, because I know for a fact there's someone out there for everyone. It's a matter of finding it. X rejects you? Move on. No sense in dwelling. No sense in calling it out, either. People are people. Some are great, others are 7 levels of insane.

No mindset adjustment will give us our 20s back and you know it.

 

[user 139760]

No mindset adjustment will give us our 20s back and you know it.

Seriously? You don't know enough 50 year olds dating 20 year olds, or read about them enough, to think it's something that is totally innacessible to you?
If that is what you want, DO IT.
Dress up one night, go to a club. Go every night. Get 20-30-40 refusals a night. My point is, you WILL get that yes eventually. Only reason you won't is if you never try.
If that's what you want. I personally wouldn't, I don't live in the past. My 20's were enough of a headache of drama and problems.
One of my honeysuckle uncles does exactly that. Works great for him. I think he's a prick. But he looks really happy cheating on his girlfriend with girls his daughter's ages.

 

[ardour]

Seriously? You don't know enough 50 year olds dating 20 year olds, or read about them enough, to think it's something that is totally innacessible to you?
If that is what you want, DO IT.
Dress up one night, go to a club. Go every night. Get 20-30-40 refusals a night. My point is, you WILL get that yes eventually. Only reason you won't is if you never try.
If that's what you want. I personally wouldn't, I don't live in the past. My 20's were enough of a headache of drama and problems.

Don't you have daughters approaching that age? Weird thing for you to say, but okay then, advice noted.

 

[user 139760]

Don't you have daughters approaching that age? Weird thing for you to say, but okay then, advice noted.

We're talking about you, not me. If you want to do that, do it. If you date my daughter, we'll have a talk. If my daughter WANTS to date you, what am I going to say, no? It's her business. She's an adult. She makes her own decisions.
Like I said, I wouldn't. But I'm not the one lamenting his lost youth.

 

[ardour]

I think the real question is, WHY was a guy a "momma's boy" in the first place.
I think the WHY for that, is the real core of the issue.

I've been passive low energy because I don't have muscles, didn't come from money, always seemed to suck at everything I tried/had NOTHING where there seemed like any meaningful capacity to improve at it, therefore skilled/active interests weren't fun or interesting to me, but that's how you make money, that's how you entertain people, that's how you get confidence and pride/dignity and it's what people want. I basically felt like I was a victim of sh*t genetics.

It's hard to be confident and bet big when you feel like you have no cards. You can't really walk tall if you're not strong/good at anything - other people won't allow it, and you'll know to yourself that your confidence has no basis. I tried that for a while and it didn't work because my "say so" wasn't backed by anything, like worthless money. All I really felt I could do was NOT die, so I could enjoy my life later...when I became a professional...which I should have been able to do because I was good-ish at school...until I gave up on that because I thought Peak Oil was going to happen soon and the civilized world was going to end.

The not-dying-so-I-could-enjoy-my-life-later thing, I now see was the source of intense phobia about a certain illness during my late junior high through freshman year of college days.

I fell into just liking things, as my interest. As I've said, Star Wars in particular was more than my interest, it was my escape - from not being physically powerful, not being good at anything, not having money, not knowing the "cool" way to talk to people - cocky/"funny"/sarcastic/dominant. But the thing is, no one cares how much you like some fandom, because it's not a skill like playing basketball, skateboarding, or the guitar. No one is impressed that you like some fandom or some band or anything like that. But liking things was all I thought I could do. I learned too late the difference between "liking" and "doing" interests, and that the "doing" ones were the ones you wanted. But again, even had I known this I would have just said I probably don't have the genetic talent for it anyway.

Sometimes I really wish I'd been dealt a hand that made me feel like I could kick ass, instead. Something that made me feel like I could breathe fire.
I probably would have been a colder, meaner person. I wouldn't have known better not to be, and who knows, I might even have been the very same kind of jerk I've complained about on here so many times. But I would have been stronger and more successful, so I would have been happier.

Sorry if that was extra-negative. I've been thinking a LOT about this stuff lately, thinking intensely trying to get to the bottom of it before any more time passes if it even matters anymore. And if I repeat the phrase "genetics" or "talent" a lot, it's cause I realized that's it, that's the core issue for me. I felt like I didn't have the power to kick ass at anything, and the cure would be getting good at something and kicking ass, but I'm afraid it's not possible. A lot of people would say I'm just not disciplined, but it's hard to be disciplined at something you don't think you can do. Like, it would be hard to be disciplined at flapping your arms and flying, or punching a brick wall with your bare fist. You wouldn't want to practice that because it would seem impossible, ridiculous, embarrassing and painful.

For others it might be something else.

You're relatively young, fit looking, what's stopping you from taking up skating or some other "cool" activity that isn't about being a jock or a Real Man? It is a matter of forcing yourself, I'd say.