Over Romanticizing

[user 190799]

One thing I've realised is that whenever I am alone, I seem to turn having a girlfriend into this magical state that is so amazing I can never live without it, or at least never be happy without it. I do the same with intimacy, making it out as something magical and essential to happiness. The longer I am alone the more idealistic it all becomes, and the more depth I imagine it to have. I remember doing the same as a young man before I ever had a girlfriend. Maybe it's a natural thing.

So after many years of lone wolfing it, I got a girlfriend to fulfill that idealistic fantasy, and reviews are in, and honestly it's very over rated. And It's not her, it's just impossible to reach those ideals. It's the same thing with exes, I think back and start to forget about all the bad in those relationships, and start to over estimate how good it was, leading to much regret.

Anyway, she was interesting, and physically attractive but I just couldn't feel anything meaningful. The intimacy was great but not mind blowing. Then came the fears of losing my freedom. Every time we arranged a date, or made a plan it felt like I was walking deeper and deeper into an increasingly dark alley. Each moment the trepidation increased; fears of being captured somehow and being unable to escape intensifying.

So now I'm left not knowing if feeling negative about loneliness is justified. Does anybody still believe in the romanticized version of love? You know; something meaningful with true love twin flames and all that. Or is the reality of it just plain shallow lust, validation and dependency?

I would be willing to give up freedom for the idealistic 'true' love that doesn't abandon or cheat on you after the bliss wears off, but not for what I've experienced thus far irl.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

I've only ever experienced women, being afraid of that, 'losing their freedom,' thing. I'm not completely sure what that is about.

I can understand it from a female perspective though. If you get lots of attention in your single-dom, live a certain lifestyle that is only amenable to being single, then, yeah, you'll have to give up something, to have that, 'constant companion.'

Usually it's women, that complain about this in their men. But, times have changed.

I think it depends on what a person is looking for, contrasted to what best suits them. I don't think the, 'settled down together,' life, is for everyone. If you naturally aren't like that, and aren't keen on adapting into it, probably better to just find some one who enjoys their freedom as much as you do.

I think that's what it's all about. Finding a good, 'fit,' in a partner. Trouble is, I think that's a rare thing to find, and even then, we change as people.

I think certain people, are just better equipped from the get-go, to have the essential ingredients to grow together with some one, and change with them. And, I think that gets harder as we get older, because, once you are established in who you are, it's not likely you are going to, 'change.' When you are younger, a square peg can be shaped into a round one to fit into a round hole; so to speak, but, once you have your beliefs, opinions, and views, I think you are more looking for some one who matches those.

I have friends from my youth for example. We have less in common now, than we did even then; but, because we were young, differences didn't matter so much. And now that we are older, we have history. So we just mesh purely on our shared temperment, rather than lifestyle, thoughts, beliefs, etc..

---

As far as over romanticizing, I think we all do that to a degree. In the extreme it's probably not healthy, even in small amounts, it's probably unrealistic. You have to dream a little bit. But, when all the fireworks die down, it's really just about, having dinner, paying bills, raising the children if any, and stuff like that. And for the day-to-day living stuff, you want a companion that compliments your nature, rather than some one you have to constantly adjust to.

---

But, an old saying goes, "Single and lonely," or, "Married and bored." We're always going to be generally, 'dissatisfied,' with our current situation, for the most part. And I think this is because we are creatures of habit, always thinking forward. Life's just weird like that.

You can eat so much food you make yourself sick, and tell yourself, "I'll never eat like that again!" Or, you can go hungry, and think to yourself, "I'll never not appreciate a good meal, ever again!" But, then, the mind forgets. And we continue to not appreciate what we have, while thinking something else would be more preferable.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

No idea why your post has so little replies im sure everyone is just waking up This was super interesting and welcome!

You know I do a similar but opposite thing, I have relationship OCD so if my partner is not perfect 24/7 I start worrying that they aren't even good enough for me or if I even love them, its exhausting! Only once im alone I start thinking rationally again. I think well that wasn't that bad… or maybe I overrated.

From my understanding sometimes its all the expectations that ruin everything

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

"Mr. Rabbit says that the Moment Of Realization is worth a thousand prayers."
- Mickey Knox, Natural Born Killers

My man, I do believe you are onto something with that.
What you're getting into is endocrinology and other neurochemistry which is what cranks up at the aspiration for love and an intimate partner when you're alone, and eventually plateaus after what's commonly called "the Honeymoon Period" of a relationship, or the chemical drop-off or downshift after a relationship. Some people also refer to the Honeymoon Period as N.R.E. or New Relationship Energy, which is the same thing. It's when your brain is high on its own supply.

I believe, as many other people do, that the ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP, starts AFTER that period, rather than before or during it.

Biggest sign that the N.R.E. or Honeymoon Period is over for your partner is decreased intimate experience, and/or the first argument, which are usually oddly kind of correlated with each other. For us recovered alcoholics, we know this as the morning after "what the fvck did I do last night?" thought the morning after a night of heavy drinking. I.E. The Moment Of Realization.

The only difference between the chemicals your brain organically generates, and the chemicals that you ingest, is that the chemicals that you ingest aren't organic, and therefore are a bit trickier to troubleshoot.

The good news is:
That as you get older, especially in the 30 - 35 age range and up, the prospect or idea of spending the brunt of your life entirely alone gradually seems more and more challenging given the difficulties thereof.

So depending on what your line of work is, how you're fairing with factors like your health and your resources, what your daily labors are like etc., that will vary depending upon the individual, but that's when people are usually in the right mind and decision making process as to rather or not they want to be with someone for a long term commitment or not.

We're shafted about this in our younger years, is the thing.
Hormones are like that, they can really screw your life projection up if you don't understand how truly powerful they are.

It isn't that it's "over romanticizing," rather though that the ideology of love and relationships is overrated...largely in part due to the brain chemistry and hormonal factors. That's why that happens the way that it does, and the swing between the two is even that much greater for younger people who usually struggle with understanding why that is the way that it is.

It's a struggle for younger people to understand because they just lack the life experience to be able to understand it. That's not really a fault that they have, it's more like: Well, if you've never driven a car before than you really don't actually know what driving a car is really like, now do you? It's the fundamental difference between Perception Of Experience, and Reality Of Experience.

 

[user 190799]

I've only ever experienced women, being afraid of that, 'losing their freedom,' thing. I'm not completely sure what that is about.

I can understand it from a female perspective though. If you get lots of attention in your single-dom, live a certain lifestyle that is only amenable to being single, then, yeah, you'll have to give up something, to have that, 'constant companion.'

Usually it's women, that complain about this in their men. But, times have changed.

I think it depends on what a person is looking for, contrasted to what best suits them. I don't think the, 'settled down together,' life, is for everyone. If you naturally aren't like that, and aren't keen on adapting into it, probably better to just find some one who enjoys their freedom as much as you do.

I think that's what it's all about. Finding a good, 'fit,' in a partner. Trouble is, I think that's a rare thing to find, and even then, we change as people.

I think certain people, are just better equipped from the get-go, to have the essential ingredients to grow together with some one, and change with them. And, I think that gets harder as we get older, because, once you are established in who you are, it's not likely you are going to, 'change.' When you are younger, a square peg can be shaped into a round one to fit into a round hole; so to speak, but, once you have your beliefs, opinions, and views, I think you are more looking for some one who matches those.

I have friends from my youth for example. We have less in common now, than we did even then; but, because we were young, differences didn't matter so much. And now that we are older, we have history. So we just mesh purely on our shared temperment, rather than lifestyle, thoughts, beliefs, etc..

---

As far as over romanticizing, I think we all do that to a degree. In the extreme it's probably not healthy, even in small amounts, it's probably unrealistic. You have to dream a little bit. But, when all the fireworks die down, it's really just about, having dinner, paying bills, raising the children if any, and stuff like that. And for the day-to-day living stuff, you want a companion that compliments your nature, rather than some one you have to constantly adjust to.

---

But, an old saying goes, "Single and lonely," or, "Married and bored." We're always going to be generally, 'dissatisfied,' with our current situation, for the most part. And I think this is because we are creatures of habit, always thinking forward. Life's just weird like that.

You can eat so much food you make yourself sick, and tell yourself, "I'll never eat like that again!" Or, you can go hungry, and think to yourself, "I'll never not appreciate a good meal, ever again!" But, then, the mind forgets. And we continue to not appreciate what we have, while thinking something else would be more preferable.

I have thought a bit about this, and maybe the over romanticizing and feeling trapped goes hand in hand. Imagining there is something 'deeper' to love will mean that one could end up with (and depending of the extent of the depth imagined; be guided to) someone that would be good to be trapped with in a relationship.

Maybe it's just about fear of re-living past trauma where I felt trapped in a toxic relationship. In the aftermath I was kinda forced to dream about something more, meaningful and deeper. The alternative is the very real threat of walking into such a relationship again, and be vulnerable.

But I realize that living in a dream world may cause me to lose touch with reality, or to reject it. I guess that's why I am here.

Maybe to make it clear, let me mention two examples:

I date someone and everything goes great, but I don't feel sufficient magic and reject them, while they seem to be perfectly lovely.

I chat with someone on an app where avatars are used so we don't know what people look like. I make friends with someone, and they give me their email, so we chat there, and then she updates her email profile picture, and I was sure it was so I could see what she looked like. The fact that she was attractive, made me end the 'friendship' because I was afraid of being shallow, overlooking any red flags and ending up trapped with someone bad.

And I guess I say trapped in the sense of: loving a toxic person, having a toxic person dependant on you, having kids with a toxic person etc. all of which make it hard to end the relationship.

 

[user 190799]

No idea why your post has so little replies im sure everyone is just waking up This was super interesting and welcome!

You know I do a similar but opposite thing, I have relationship OCD so if my partner is not perfect 24/7 I start worrying that they aren't even good enough for me or if I even love them, its exhausting! Only once im alone I start thinking rationally again. I think well that wasn't that bad… or maybe I overrated.

From my understanding sometimes its all the expectations that ruin everything

At this stage I don't even know what love means anymore.

I wished someone here would say they believed in fairytale love, you know; happy ever after princes and princesses, so I could hope a bit longer. Maybe I could pretend for a moment longer that reality wasn't so risky or so much hard work, sometimes even a roll of the dice.

When I think realistically, the sadness that emerges is that I will be alone, because I can't get myself to risk getting hurt again. And nobody will ever be the magical soulmate I'm looking for, who would never let me down or hurt me deliberately.

The even more worrying thing that's brewing in the back of my mind is the thought of becoming like the guys who go after looks and sex and will never experience something meaningful, perpetually chasing pleasure. How hopeless is that? How broken is that? Or maybe that's the truth, and the reality is - we are animals. Meaningless creatures churning in the maelstrom for a moment in time, eventually drawn down into the dark and fading away. See how I get without hope?

 

[user 190799]

"Mr. Rabbit says that the Moment Of Realization is worth a thousand prayers."
- Mickey Knox, Natural Born Killers

My man, I do believe you are onto something with that.
What you're getting into is endocrinology and other neurochemistry which is what cranks up at the aspiration for love and an intimate partner when you're alone, and eventually plateaus after what's commonly called "the Honeymoon Period" of a relationship, or the chemical drop-off or downshift after a relationship. Some people also refer to the Honeymoon Period as N.R.E. or New Relationship Energy, which is the same thing. It's when your brain is high on its own supply.

I believe, as many other people do, that the ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP, starts AFTER that period, rather than before or during it.

Biggest sign that the N.R.E. or Honeymoon Period is over for your partner is decreased intimate experience, and/or the first argument, which are usually oddly kind of correlated with each other. For us recovered alcoholics, we know this as the morning after "what the fvck did I do last night?" thought the morning after a night of heavy drinking. I.E. The Moment Of Realization.

The only difference between the chemicals your brain organically generates, and the chemicals that you ingest, is that the chemicals that you ingest aren't organic, and therefore are a bit trickier to troubleshoot.

The good news is:
That as you get older, especially in the 30 - 35 age range and up, the prospect or idea of spending the brunt of your life entirely alone gradually seems more and more challenging given the difficulties thereof.

So depending on what your line of work is, how you're fairing with factors like your health and your resources, what your daily labors are like etc., that will vary depending upon the individual, but that's when people are usually in the right mind and decision making process as to rather or not they want to be with someone for a long term commitment or not.

We're shafted about this in our younger years, is the thing.
Hormones are like that, they can really screw your life projection up if you don't understand how truly powerful they are.

It isn't that it's "over romanticizing," rather though that the ideology of love and relationships is overrated...largely in part due to the brain chemistry and hormonal factors. That's why that happens the way that it does, and the swing between the two is even that much greater for younger people who usually struggle with understanding why that is the way that it is.

It's a struggle for younger people to understand because they just lack the life experience to be able to understand it. That's not really a fault that they have, it's more like: Well, if you've never driven a car before than you really don't actually know what driving a car is really like, now do you? It's the fundamental difference between Perception Of Experience, and Reality Of Experience.

I always think about the kids ending up in broken homes because of this honeymoon period.

Those chemicals make one ignore all the red flags. I was married in my early twenties, and my ex stole things from my family, so they told me she was stealing, her own mother told me she was not a good person lol. But I just looked into my exes lovely eyes and believed every word she said. It took me three years and almost ending up in jail because of her deceit, before the blinders came off and I could see who she really was. Luckily we didn't have kids.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

At this stage I don't even know what love means anymore.

I wished someone here would say they believed in fairytale love, you know; happy ever after princes and princesses, so I could hope a bit longer. Maybe I could pretend for a moment longer that reality wasn't so risky or so much hard work, sometimes even a roll of the dice.

When I think realistically, the sadness that emerges is that I will be alone, because I can't get myself to risk getting hurt again. And nobody will ever be the magical soulmate I'm looking for, who would never let me down or hurt me deliberately.

The even more worrying thing that's brewing in the back of my mind is the thought of becoming like the guys who go after looks and sex and will never experience something meaningful, perpetually chasing pleasure. How hopeless is that? How broken is that? Or maybe that's the truth, and the reality is - we are animals. Meaningless creatures churning in the maelstrom for a moment in time, eventually drawn down into the dark and fading away. See how I get without hope?

I believe in fairytale love I genuinely believe im the princess of my fellas dreams and he is the magic prince that saves me from my tower of doom

I agree with you, no one wont hurt or let you down regardless of intention. You are the same, but you would want to be forgiven and you dont want to forgive… theres the imbalance. Every relationship you have with someone theres a good chance you have had to forgive each other at least once, because we are human yet we think of romantic relationships different.

I think looks are important and aren't a barrier to finding something special. Not sure why people act like ugly people are all angels to roam the earth, they are not. Theres mean, cold people who are hot, ugly and all that fall inbetween. Go for what you are attracted to thats good to you

Goood Luck

 

[user 190541]

I gotta say I disagree with @NoxApex(N/A)'s chemical reductionism, and I think the "romanticized version of love" is indeed possible, as opposed to "shallow lust, validation and dependency". A good indication of that is the philosophy behind friendship. The Greeks were masters of the art of friendship, and if you consider, for example, the Epicurean ideal of friendship, you'll see that it is the practical actualization of an ideal, in the sense that it is through this formulation of the problem and reality of friendship that the neutralization of its known negative derivations is intended. The problem of friendship also deeply concerned Democritus, and a considerable portion of his nearly completely lost oeuvre must have been dedicated to the study of its vicissitudes (Nietzsche, by the way, is right when he emphatically laments the loss of this great philosopher's works). Going from friendship to love, the situation tends to get a little bit trickier, but the solution is nevertheless the same. In our dealings with other people, we must employ a certain level of self-discipline, only then we'll be able to experience that which the Greeks used to call ataraxia, the peace and clarity of mind that happiness presupposes. It's worth noting that, even today, our common ideal of happiness is still fundamentally Greek. So, heed the words of those ancient sages, and remember that, as Nietzsche puts it, "other peoples have saints, the Greeks have sages".

 

[user 190799]

I gotta say I disagree with @NoxApex(N/A)'s chemical reductionism, and I think the "romanticized version of love" is indeed possible, as opposed to "shallow lust, validation and dependency". A good indication of that is the philosophy behind friendship. The Greeks were masters of the art of friendship, and if you consider, for example, the Epicurean ideal of friendship, you'll see that it is the practical actualization of an ideal, in the sense that it is through this formulation of the problem and reality of friendship that the neutralization of its known negative derivations is intended. The problem of friendship also deeply concerned Democritus, and a considerable portion of his nearly completely lost oeuvre must have been dedicated to the study of its vicissitudes (Nietzsche, by the way, is right when he emphatically laments the loss of this great philosopher's works). Going from friendship to love, the situation tends to get a little bit trickier, but the solution is nevertheless the same. In our dealings with other people, we must employ a certain level of self-discipline, only then we'll be able to experience that which the Greeks used to call ataraxia, the peace and clarity of mind that happiness presupposes. It's worth noting that, even today, our common ideal of happiness is still fundamentally Greek. So, heed the words of those ancient sages, and remember that, as Nietzsche puts it, "other peoples have saints, the Greeks have sages".

Thanks for that, it actually reminded me of something I forgot to remember. I thought about all my failures concerning romantic love, and my recent skittishness to get back in, and thought that maybe I am confusing the need for friendship with a need for romantic love. I've even been reading Jung concerning the archetype of the 'woman' and thought that maybe I am confusing my desire to get more in touch with my emotional, or creative side with a need for romantic love. It can also be a manifestation of a spiritual need confused for the same, if that archetype is applied to the 'woman' in the Bible i.e. Eve, the 'woman' in revelation 12 or even the bride of Christ - the church.

Friendship, emotional/artistic expression or religious connection could be what I actually need or want. Which one, or maybe a combination, I am not sure but it's definitely food for thought.

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

I gotta say I disagree with @NoxApex(N/A)'s chemical reductionism, and I think the "romanticized version of love" is indeed possible, as opposed to "shallow lust, validation and dependency". A good indication of that is the philosophy behind friendship. The Greeks were masters of the art of friendship, and if you consider, for example, the Epicurean ideal of friendship, you'll see that it is the practical actualization of an ideal, in the sense that it is through this formulation of the problem and reality of friendship that the neutralization of its known negative derivations is intended. The problem of friendship also deeply concerned Democritus, and a considerable portion of his nearly completely lost oeuvre must have been dedicated to the study of its vicissitudes (Nietzsche, by the way, is right when he emphatically laments the loss of this great philosopher's works). Going from friendship to love, the situation tends to get a little bit trickier, but the solution is nevertheless the same. In our dealings with other people, we must employ a certain level of self-discipline, only then we'll be able to experience that which the Greeks used to call ataraxia, the peace and clarity of mind that happiness presupposes. It's worth noting that, even today, our common ideal of happiness is still fundamentally Greek. So, heed the words of those ancient sages, and remember that, as Nietzsche puts it, "other peoples have saints, the Greeks have sages".

While most of this is true and I do generally agree with it in heart, the practicality of the scale-to-size situation of the human population difference between Ancient Greece and modernity is a factor. There weren't 8,000,000,000 People on the planet during the time of Ancient Greece, nor did they have 3,000 Satellites in space nor had they mapped and catalogued the entirety human DNA, nor peered into the great depths of deep space.

These are all modern things that have come with our advancements. While it makes sense in ancient times that people would bond and pair more out of necessity and mutual desire of agreeance and community, these modern advancements and modern problems are a large contributor as to why that doesn't really happen anymore.

Author Mark Manson suggested once that the solution to one problem is merely the replacement of that problem with another problem instead, and that in life happiness comes from solving problems. That life is not about perfectionism nor is it about having no problems at all, but rather it's about what problems you choose to have in your life that you are okay with having in your life.

So we have solved our "we're going to go extinct problem" by replacing it with a "we know way too much and we are systemically contributing to our own detriment now" problem.

There are pros and cons to every single little thing in life.
The pro of not knowing is blissful ignorance.
But the con of that blissful ignorance is also perpetuating your own suffering through contributing to your own self-detriment.

The pro of knowing is being able to think and calculate ahead.
But the con of knowing is that there is a limited amount of reasoning outside that of which becomes predictable with the pro of not knowing or blissful ignorance.

It's very much like American Socio-Economics and American Politics:

Would you like to be skinned from the neck-down, or the ankle up?
The result is relatively the same either way.

Just because we now have what we now have, does not mean that societal collapse is no longer inevitable. Rather, how it will happen will be different.

The only difference between the Bronze Age Collapse and a modern collapse is that a modern collapse won't happen the same way that the Bronze Age collapse did.

It's a bad system. That's all.
And I think the hardest part about it being a bad system is that we don't really get a choice in the matter, that's the part that we just have to learn to accept.

While a gambler with an infinity of luck could juggle and jury rig for forever, that one time when his luck forgets to factor probability correctly, the one time where even though he has an infinity of luck that it just didn't trigger for some anomalous reason, that will be when that gambler with that infinity of luck will come face to face with this acceptance. So it's more a matter of when, rather than if. That's why it's uncomfortable. That particular discomfort has been with us since before civilization was ever even established. It's instinctual for a reason.

Do you know how many older people I've had come up to me when I was in retail management who have said to me: "I'm glad I'm not your age. This world is going to Hell." ??? I'm kind of anesthetized to it. While we cannot stop it and we cannot change it, we can give people the tools that they need to deal with it and teach them how to cope with it accordingly. Which is what we should be doing as a society of people to begin with. We don't do that, for a plethora of mostly individualistically selfish personal reasons and reasons of cognitive awareness of mental instability which undermines pretty much everything else about how we live in modernity, and this is a mutually shared problem that both the elderly and the youth suffer from.

So if the result is the same either way, it's kind of a matter of pick your own poison. Red or white? Bourbon or vodka?

 

[user 190541]

While most of this is true and I do generally agree with it in heart, the practicality of the scale-to-size situation of the human population difference between Ancient Greece and modernity is a factor. There weren't 8,000,000,000 People on the planet during the time of Ancient Greece, nor did they have 3,000 Satellites in space nor had they mapped and catalogued the entirety human DNA, nor peered into the great depths of deep space.

These are all modern things that have come with our advancements. While it makes sense in ancient times that people would bond and pair more out of necessity and mutual desire of agreeance and community, these modern advancements and modern problems are a large contributor as to why that doesn't really happen anymore.

I'd say that's precisely why nowadays we must put an extra effort into being agreeable people that are easy to socialize with, because otherwise we risk losing touch with our human side, so to speak, completely immersing ourselves in the all-consuming, empty vastness of technology and the mechanistic, unrelenting processes and social norms that govern our self-centered existance. Even if society sucks like nothing else, we should still engage in the creation of groups, societies that will allow us to give expression to this necessity, very much like the philosophers of old once did. That's what I believe in.