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Questions for the Women
(10-16-2018, 02:42 AM)Richard_39 Wrote: Lol "real men"....
If you write "M" as sex on your application forms, that qualufies you as a real man. The rest is entirely personality and choice related.
I've been thrown that term before as opposed and as an independantly tagged "real man", it alwars irked me, because the introverted, quiet, bookish non-athletic reserved dude that's my friend is as much a real man as I am. I guess we're still a lot more tribal in our thinking, despite our supposed advancement in culture.
I'm sure said girls wouldnt think that when they see me screwing around with the kids in high heels on weekends, or with my pink appron lol!

Plenty of reserved, arty or what-have-you type guys get into relationships because they still intuitively understand what it means to project masculinity (stoicism, low emotional investement ie. not really caring). The stereotypical 'bloke' stuff is mostly irrelevant now.
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(10-16-2018, 05:23 AM)Joturbo Wrote: Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?
Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I go...
[Image: d8mV4rP.gif]
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manflu, just saying
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(10-17-2018, 01:30 AM)Rodent Wrote:
(10-16-2018, 05:23 AM)Joturbo Wrote: Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

Different. Kind of like all of us really lol.
Sorry to but in, it's not my convo. But I don't see any inherent differences besides cosmetic ones. And I've said it before I believe, but your deeply intuitive and reflective mind makes you a helluva dude at that.
I've always wondered if our idea of masculinity is defined by society or if our behavior defines its idea inside our society. Any thoughts?

(10-17-2018, 02:09 AM)DarkSelene Wrote: manflu, just saying

I got that since last week. While everyone called in sick, I worked coughing and sweating like a hog, cos *grunt* lol.
Manflu is a choice, methinks.
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(10-16-2018, 08:28 AM)ardour Wrote: Plenty reserved, arty of whathaveyou type guys get into relationships because they still intuitively understand what it means to project masculinity (stoicism, low emotional investement ie. not really caring). The stereotypical 'bloke' stuff is mostly irrelevant now.

I'm not saying Richard's friend is this, I don't know him.  I'm just saying I've seen what you're talking about.

I'd say the stereotypical "bloke" stuff, as you put it, is still as relevant as ever.  But also I agree, lots of these hipster types can get into relationships because they can do all the things you said (well, some aren't stoic, they prance around like idiots), but also because they still project power, just not physically.  They project power by taking a very cold, cynical, smug, evaluating, dismissive attitude of superiority, stroking their pseudo-intellectual ego and making sarcastic quips.  They're all about seeming like they don't actually like things, except ironically or to do the whole "look at me, i'm oh so much more clever and cultured than you" routine, which gives them the spin to get the crowd on their side and distracts from the fact that these guys aren't really about anything.  That element of competition, edging the other guy out is still there.  This is one reason why I don't care for "witty" people, because it's another social status dominance game.

It gets worse when they lay on the "misunderstood poet/tortured artist" bullshit.  

I can't help myself, I just hate that guys like this, or my other "favorite people", are who gets ahead in this world.  I've felt this way my whole life.  I wish there was another Earth I could go to, where things weren't like this.

(10-17-2018, 01:30 AM)Rodent Wrote: I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

That's remarkably close to how I am, except that I'd try to avoid scraping my knee in the first place.  I didn't put myself in athletic or physical situations because I figured I didn't have the body to be good at it, so what's the point?  And I never had that need to be hard, macho, and hyper-competitive - I always thought, why not just be however you want to?  I was more into stories anyway.  

I was thinking about this with a friend over the weekend and I really don't think I'm that much of a feminine man.  I'm just not hyper-masculine, I don't see masculinity as something that I have to constantly defend or project, it's just one of my default characteristics.  Which is enough for women to not take me seriously, unfortunately.

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(10-17-2018, 02:50 AM)Richard_39 Wrote: Different. Kind of like all of us really lol.
Sorry to but in, it's not my convo. But I don't see any inherent differences besides cosmetic ones. And I've said it before I believe, but your deeply intuitive and reflective mind makes you a helluva dude at that.
I've always wondered if our idea of masculinity is defined by society or if our behavior defines its idea inside our society. Any thoughts?

It's everyone's conversation, Richard. I'd also say that if we have a real talk about masculinity then the more voices, the better...and some male voices wouldn't hurt.

The answer to the question is always "both". Like art imitates life imitates art and so on. And even if we prescribe equal biological starting points to men and women (like you do) that still wouldn't mean we are blank slates, so we have biology informing culture/behavior as well. Actually...even if our differences were purely cosmetic plus some internal plumbing, we all know that differences in reaction are also predicated on what we see. Pretty face, ugly face. Tall person, small person etc. Something to consider even for hardcore blankslateists.

Ideas about masculinity change between cultures and across time with changing environments but some factors remain relatively stable. I think you can't twist it around endlessly either, just like there is only a limited number of functioning, lasting societies possible cause at the end of the day they all need to survive and propagate or they run out after 50 years unless they proselytize like crazy (which still needs "other" groups to draw from then). Suicide cults work for a while but they don't last for obvious reasons. Or take a look at the Shaker religion which had celibacy as a core tenet...anyways, I rambled.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I go...
[Image: d8mV4rP.gif]
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(10-17-2018, 01:30 AM)Rodent Wrote:
(10-16-2018, 05:23 AM)Joturbo Wrote: Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

Rodent I think only you can know the answer but maybe it comes with age and experience but I know thinking back now I've always had more feminine traits right from an early age. Personally though not that my opinion matters a jot really before that last paragraph I felt from your replies a really warm assured articulate confidence veering more to masculine than feminine. I can feel the feminine women melting into their keyboards as you speak and I feel a bit envious about that attribute that I can sense from your posts , (don't shoot me skafish but I'll pm you my addi for the cheque Rodent) no really I do genuinely think that. To me physical attributes aren't important because looking at me you'd probably think masculine but I am definitely more feminine inside. 

On the question of kids do you think your zoning in on the kids you think don't like you. Because I'm a big kid at heart and you sound very likeable to me(bigger cheque please) .....bullish#t alert I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well but that's nothing new lol.

By the way I gotta a zebra Wolly print pair of socks too but I'm not sure if this is relevant......
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(10-17-2018, 05:30 AM)Rodent Wrote: It's everyone's conversation, Richard. I'd also say that if we have a real talk about masculinity then the more voices, the better...and some male voices wouldn't hurt.

The answer to the question is always "both". Like art imitates life imitates art and so on. And even if we prescribe equal biological starting points to men and women (like you do) that still wouldn't mean we are blank slates, so we have biology informing culture/behavior as well. Actually...even if our differences were purely cosmetic plus some internal plumbing, we all know that differences in reaction are also predicated on what we see. Pretty face, ugly face. Tall person, small person etc. Something to consider even for hardcore blankslateists.

Ideas about masculinity change between cultures and across time with changing environments but some factors remain relatively stable. I think you can't twist it around endlessly either, just like there is only a limited number of functioning, lasting societies possible cause at the end of the day they all need to survive and propagate or they run out after 50 years unless they proselytize like crazy (which still needs "other" groups to draw from then). Suicide cults work for a while but they don't last for obvious reasons. Or take a look at the Shaker religion which had celibacy as a core tenet...anyways, I rambled.

Well of course, biologically speaking we all have the same starting points. Anything afterwards is anyone's ballgame. For example, gay couple friends of mine. After only a 5 minute convo, you can clearly see they are men, identify as men and have definite, typically associated male behavior associated. So out goes the stereotype of one man being "more effiminate" in a gay relationship. So they are as much men as I am. Which leads me to think that "this is what a man is" labels or generalisations will always be, at best, highly speculative. You have to judge by individual or nothing, I think.

I also wear my daughters big pink "bearpaw" chausettes on weekends when she's not there (warm as hell lol) and I wouldn't think it plays any particular role in my masculinity. Wasnt it Bret Hart who wore "real men wear Pink" t-shirts? ;-)
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(10-17-2018, 10:46 AM)Joturbo Wrote: Rodent I think only you can know the answer but maybe it comes with age and experience but I know thinking back now I've always had more feminine traits right from an early age. Personally though not that my opinion matters a jot really before that last paragraph I felt from your replies a really warm assured articulate confidence veering more to masculine than feminine. I can feel the feminine women melting into their keyboards as you speak and I feel a bit envious about that attribute that I can sense from your posts , (don't shoot me skafish but I'll pm you my addi for the cheque Rodent) no really I do genuinely think that. To me physical attributes aren't important because looking at me you'd probably think masculine but I am definitely more feminine inside.

On the question of kids do you think your zoning in on the kids you think don't like you. Because I'm a big kid at heart and you sound very likeable to me(bigger cheque please) .....bullish#t alert I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well but that's nothing new lol.

By the way I gotta a zebra Wolly print pair of socks too but I'm not sure if this is relevant......

...oh my lord, that's a bit much. I already had trouble digesting such a "compliment" when I got it from female friends (and my girlfriend), but you'd be the first man I hear it from in that manner. It doesn't make it any easier. The worst part is that some people on here know what I look like and it only supported that impression. I just don't see myself that way, but I reckon that's my problem.

It's not like kids openly tell me they hate me, but among my relatives I have mostly been ignored or mildly ridiculed by children of all ages so I can't really give them the benefit of the doubt. Overall I have no connection to kids whatsoever. But I don't want to talk shit about kids. After all, I don't exactly have a good connection to people in general.

PS: Yes, I have one pair of wooly socks but they are single-colored...

(10-18-2018, 02:33 AM)Richard_39 Wrote: Well of course, biologically speaking we all have the same starting points. Anything afterwards is anyone's ballgame. For example, gay couple friends of mine. After only a 5 minute convo, you can clearly see they are men, identify as men and have definite, typically associated male behavior associated. So out goes the stereotype of one man being "more effiminate" in a gay relationship. So they are as much men as I am. Which leads me to think that "this is what a man is" labels or generalisations will always be, at best, highly speculative. You have to judge by individual or nothing, I think.

I also wear my daughters big pink "bearpaw" chausettes on weekends when she's not there (warm as hell lol) and I wouldn't think it plays any particular role in my masculinity. Wasnt it Bret Hart who wore "real men wear Pink" t-shirts? ;-)

See, I never really bought much into the "effeminate gay guy" stereotype. Gay men exist on a spectrum like everyone else and I don't know how wide that spectrum extends. For all we know, on the spectrum of gay men we might find the most masculine and most feminine men alike. To throw my own anecdote in here...I have gay colleagues at work who are married to each other. One is at least physically more masculine than the other (and also quite a bit older), but if I had to be honest I would consider them both more feminine-leaning in their behavior and interests, so I couldn't assign a "role" to either of them. If we want to go fully sociological, maybe the only reason why we have the effeminate stereotype is because of historical association of gay rights with feminists.

Speaking of which...pink is faded (masculine) royalty red and was originally a boy's color. Things change. Personally I still don't like pink and wouldn't wear it. I don't like any strong vibrant colors on me and prefer earthen ones instead...
Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I go...
[Image: d8mV4rP.gif]
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Lol I'm always in black, except two notable exceptions, pink because Bret Hart is cool and a Superman t-shirt, cos Superman ;-).
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