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I feel that adult males who are "forever alone" are society's scapegoats.
#1
There are no advocacy groups for us, no specific support available, if anyone finds out about our situation we often get ridiculed for it, and possibly worst of all, if we dare complain about our predicament, we risk being called "entitled" and being told there's nobody to blame but ourselves. I truly believe that older male virgins get the shit end of the stick more than perhaps any other section of society, and there's nobody on our side to help us to defend ourselves. Society just laughs along.

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#2
Low status men who fail at masculinity are generally considered the worst examples of humanity. Think about the kinds of support lonely women receive by default on any forum or mainstream subreddit - thousands of responses telling them how *awesome* and deserving of love they are, how they need not change a thing about themselves. Compared to the responses men get? Eh.

The majority of women still want a 'protector-provider' and are nominally feminist/liberal when it suits. I don't see any of this changing. All I can suggest is to try and make do with the company of other guys.
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#3
"Low status men who fail at masculinity are generally considered the worst examples of humanity."

No, child abusers, rapists and animal abusers are generally considered the worst examples of humanity.

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#4
(02-24-2021, 05:34 AM)Forgottendanfan Wrote: "Low status men who fail at masculinity are generally considered the worst examples of humanity."

No, child abusers, rapists and animal abusers are generally considered the worst examples of humanity.

I wasn't entirely serious, but it's funny that forever alone types of men are accused of being sexual deviants. In reality it's the men women pair up with or allow into their social circles that behave like this. The perpetrator is already acquainted with the victim with the majority of rape cases; The majority of child abuse occurs within the family home. Men used to getting what they want end up doing what they please.
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#5
(02-22-2021, 04:24 AM)Forgottendanfan Wrote: There are no advocacy groups for us, no specific support available, if anyone finds out about our situation we often get ridiculed for it, and possibly worst of all, if we dare complain about our predicament, we risk being called "entitled" and being told there's nobody to blame but ourselves. I truly believe that older male virgins get the shit end of the stick more than perhaps any other section of society, and there's nobody on our side to help us to defend ourselves. Society just laughs along.

I know what you mean.  But that's the trouble - there's no specific support available because the reasons guys wind up like this are specific to each guy. 

One thing that really frustrates me is that while sure, there are some women that aren't looking for a traditional macho man, there's still a lot more women that are.  But what if you don't have the body, the interests, the culture, the life experiences, the personality or beliefs, the ways you think and feel about life, to be a macho man?  It's the same with smooth talk and "witty banter".  You need to have the kind of mind that's geared that way, you need to think and feel about the world that way, you need to have the kind of personality that thinks and reacts to life like that.  If you don't, it's hard because it's not how you believe, how you think, how you perceive the world.  The "right" things to say, just won't occur to you in the first place.

The reason guys in this situation get ridiculed is that it's assumed that the only reason a guy winds up in this situation is laziness, incompetence, weakness, inherent inferiority.  Failure at being competitive in any area of life that other people value, because they think you'd rather play or rest than compete, don't want to think hard enough or make careful plans, take risk, endure stress and pain, or they think you're too weak to compete. It's the same mentality as what conservatives say about poverty - rather than look at all the systemic issues, or personal circumstances, they just say it's the fault of the individual, while praising themselves and the system that's been good to them. It's the survival of the fittest mentality, and they think you're not the fittest (but they think they are), so they don't think you deserve to survive. That, and they ridicule you because they don't respect you, because they think you don't have any power. Otherwise you'd have money, a girlfriend, etc. It's the same old, they think they can fuck with you - and it's their right to fuck with you - because they think you're weak, defective, inferior, and they feel safe in doing so cause they think you're not going to do anything about it, and would be too weak to do anything even if you did. At first they'll say it's because you're not working hard enough/competing enough/doing enough for society (why would you, when it rewards them instead of you?), but even if you did, then they'd just make it about you being inherently inferior instead. I still don't know how a person can be such an asshole, that they have this mentality. You can't win with that kind of person, unless you show them up by having more money, doing something better than they can, dating someone hotter than they have, or physically beating them into submission.  The frustrating thing is that most people don't seem to want to believe it's anything else, or even consider the possibility no matter how you try to explain it.  And all the while, you're bombarded by media telling you that if you can't attract a woman, you're a loser/not a "real man".

I think people like this story because the "laziness/weakness/inferiority" narrative reassures them that they are superior to someone else, and in doing so, makes them feel better about themselves, and reassures them about their own insecurities regarding their own abilities and status in the social hierarchy.  "The system has been good TO ME, therefore the system is good, and anyone that the system hasn't worked for, sucks - not like ME.  Because I'm making it in the system, it means I'm a strong/smart/popular/charismatic/talented/special/superior/lucky/good/righteous person. It means I'm one of the 'better' people."  Or, "I might have problems, but at least I'm better than that guy."  It's so smug, self-righteous, and cowardly, and has always made me sick, putting others down to feel better about oneself. 

This is why they don't like it when you criticize the system, because you're criticizing the thing that gives them advantages, and you're criticizing their entire worldview.  You're attempting to invalidate their belief that they're one of the "better" people.  You're saying that they're not that smart, careful, hard-working, morally right, not special, but rather that they're just lucky - and that's not nearly as much of an ego boost. You're criticizing and threatening their ego, and that's why they treat it like an insult or blasphemy.  They want to believe they are both hard-working and righteous, but also innately superior, the "chosen ones" at the same time.  That's why I roll my eyes at their "hard work" crap, because it's like, OK, you're telling me I don't have anything because I don't work hard enough.  But then you're also telling me that I don't have anything because you are just "better" than me, and my hard work doesn't really matter because I'm inherently inferior and I need to just accept that and resign myself to a shitty quality of life, because I just wasn't lucky enough.  So which is it? It's both - whatever is more convenient to confirm their belief that they're "better", while framing themselves as "the good guy".

I really hate "entitled" too.  It's so rude and condescending.  It's just them being dismissive instead of considering your point of view, or any other point of view other than their own. "I don't want to hear anything that threatens my worldview that I'm more righteous and superior than you."  It's just a euphemism for "I'm all right Jack."  "I've got mine, fuck you."  It's one thing when a right-wing person talks like this, that's to be expected.  But the real irony is when leftists talk that way too.  So much for enlightenment and empathy, so much for a better way, so much for the high road.  Same old survival of the fittest, competition, hierarchical thinking where some people are just "better" than others.  Same shit, different asshole.  If a so-called "better" person would just say, "I'm not better, just lucky", instead of strutting around like a self-congratulating lotto winner, I would respect them a whole lot more than the current zero, because they're just lottery winners - they just so happened to have the right body, mind, personality, interests, worldview, experiences, etc.

The other thing is worldview - what if you don't believe that life has to be survival of the fittest anymore? What if you don't believe that life is some kind of endless competition to create value for others so you can get status and resources? What if you think that life is just about liking what you like, following your interests and curiosity? What if you feel like life isn't about any one set thing, but whatever you want it to be about? Seems to be, that you get left out in the cold.

At the end of the day, I don't see people changing, I don't see the social game changing.  All you can do is think harder about the kind of person you want to be and go all-in and hope you can be enough to be someone's "type".  Look around you and see what works, what doesn't, and why.  Think back about your own life and really understand why things turned out the way they did.  

From an early age, I always felt that the social game was bullshit, made up by the lucky people, for the lucky people.  Someone might be better than me at something, but it doesn't mean they are "better" than me absolutely.  I just wish more people would understand that not everyone sees things the same way, and that some things are a lot harder for other people to learn and understand than for others, so a little empathy and understanding could go a long way. And if that's too much for them, I don't see why they can't just be glad that they're not the ones having a hard time, and get on with their day.

Sorry about the diatribe, but this is something I've thought about a lot and felt very strongly about all my life. I guess I figured that if I spelled it out, both others and me could make more sense of it.


(02-22-2021, 08:28 AM)ardour Wrote: Low status men who fail at masculinity are generally considered the worst examples of humanity.  Think about the kinds of  support lonely  women receive by default on any forum or mainstream subreddit - thousands of responses telling them how *awesome* and deserving of love they are, how they need not change a thing about themselves. Compared to the responses men get? Eh.

(02-24-2021, 09:54 AM)ardour Wrote: Men used to getting what they want end up doing what they please.

^all of this.  Maybe not "low status men are considered the worst examples of humanity" but more like, "low status men are considered the least examples of humanity, or defective examples of humanity". 

And you're totally right about the responses that lonely men and women get. The differences could hardly be more stark. Even in loneliness spaces, like various subreddits or here, you'll see many examples of this. It makes me shake my head each time I see it...whatever happened to "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself"? I guess not. It's best to just acknowledge the disparity and keep going instead of focusing on it, because all it will do for you is pour more fuel on the fire, and keep you stuck in an angry headspace.

Either way, +1

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#6
I think that most of the time this section of the population is actually quite invisible because they just mind their own business, even while a lot of them end their lives prematurely. Every now and then some lone wolf snaps and does something publicly that paints a target on the entire group or a subsection that he shared an identity with. The consequence is the same, everyone else gets suspicious of the people "like that" in their environment. People write articles and blogs about how the """problem""" should be solved. You know the deal.

It's a sad situation and you need to be careful how you talk about it too or you risk being labeled in many pernicious ways. If you're fortunate you find somebody who empathizes with the situation, lends an ear and perhaps even has advice and who is not just an opportunist that wants to sell you snake oil or tries to recruit a vulnerable person into their cult.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I go...
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#7
(Yesterday, 03:00 AM)Rodent Wrote: I think that most of the time this section of the population is actually quite invisible because they just mind their own business, even while a lot of them end their lives prematurely. Every now and then some lone wolf snaps and does something publicly that paints a target on the entire group or a subsection that he shared an identity with. The consequence is the same, everyone else gets suspicious of the people "like that" in their environment. People write articles and blogs about how the """problem""" should be solved. You know the deal.

It's a sad situation and you need to be careful how you talk about it too or you risk being labeled in many pernicious ways. If you're fortunate you find somebody who empathizes with the situation, lends an ear and perhaps even has advice and who is not just an opportunist that wants to sell you snake oil or tries to recruit a vulnerable person into their cult.

The worst is when people write articles and blogs that are clearly just trying to reinforce their views and push their narrative and agenda, or again, just trying to feel better about themselves by feeling superior to someone, and it's clear that they have no idea what the other side is really about, and no intention of actually listening to find out. I've read so many of these articles where I've felt like, "so, uh, have you ever even talked to one of these guys before?" They don't. The whole thing is just to push their one-sided story, act like they or society is "the good guy", and jerk off their ego. It's only a continuation of the already-existing disregard.

Anyway I have nothing really to add except to say that I agree with everything you said, and kudos for actually understanding the issue, when so many just straight-up refuse.

+1

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#8
Contempt for "weak" men will always  manifest in some way or another. In the past it was male-male bullying, now it's the haw hawing about (lonely) male entitlement from supposedly enlightened people., moral panics around incels, all awkwardly  shoehorned into some leftist narrative that pretends to show some sympathy for the losers in hierarchies but in reality does nothing but throw more mud. polarize and further stir up resentment (congratulations modern lib fems for almost single handedly creating the alt right)  So there's been high profile cases of lonely young male mass shooters or angry lone wolf types venting on innocent people. Generally, the men who cause harm aren't the lonely sorts, who are more likely to end up quietly killing themselves before harming anyone else.


I used to frequent a blog that had pretentions of   "tracking misogyny". Much of the time it seemed to be more about tracking geeks. Nevermind the misogyny in say professional sports circles,  or the porn industry. or Hollywood for that matter -  lets attack nerd  culture for not being progressive enough, attack gamers for preferring stereotypically  attractive female characters or indulging "male power fantasies" via their games, as if that were an important issue. The amount of hatred for neckbeards  in the comments section was just absurd.
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#9
NM
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#10
(Yesterday, 07:52 AM)ardour Wrote: I used to frequent a blog that had pretentions of   "tracking misogyny". Much of the time it seemed to be  more about tracking geeks. Nevermind the misogyny in say professional sports circles,  or the porn industry. or Hollywood for that matter -  lets attack nerd  culture for not being progressive enough,  attack gamers for preferring stereotypically  attractive female characters or indulging "male power fantasies" via  their games, as if that were an important issue. The amount of  hatred for neckbeards  in the comments section was just absurd.

It's a somewhat natural progression starting from the adjacent spheres of influence. Before gaming, there were the debates within the larger atheist movement about what other "issues" should be part of it. Somewhere in between there were movies and to a degree it has reached the movie industry itself by now.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I go...
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