Is Anders Breivik mentally ill?

[Solitary man]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17724535

The far right extremist who carried out bomb and gun attacks in Norway last year which left 77 people dead has today pleaded not guilty at the start of his trial in Oslo. If the court decides he is criminally insane, he will be committed to psychiatric care; if he is judged to be mentally stable, he will be jailed.

He has described being found insane and thus being committed to a psychiatric facility as "a fate worse than death", as he considers himself not only sane, but a patriotic stalwart in the far right's fight against multiculturalism and the Islamification of Norway and Europe.

Is Anders Breivik a dedicated, extremist, ideological, fighter in the war against radical Islam and multiculturalism, or is he merely a paranoid schizophrenic who acted upon his auditory hallucinations?

Perhaps a bit of both?

 

[The Good Citizen]

I don't know. I was watching the opening of the trial on BBC News this morning, it was quite compelling. He was so passive about the whole thing. There was no sign of any anger that could make you want to kill 75 people, he looked the picture of calm. Quite chilling actually.

By my understanding he seemed to lack any empathy or understanding for the victims or their families or any regret whatsoever. Whatever his cause, those people were innocent and their lives used as a point of propeganda so I don't see how you could class him as anything else other than a total nutjob. He is lacking in some pretty fundamental attributes of your average human being. He wants to go to prison anyway so I hope he gets found insane and the whole point of the attack is debased.

 

[Solitary man]

I'm not sure how he thought that killing 77 innocent people, most of whom were teenagers at a summer camp, was going to stall the tide of Islamification and multiculturalism. I read some of his "European Declaration of Independence", and it becomes clear that he is intelligent, articulate, and heavily politically motivated; but the style of his writing suggests a very anally retentive and obsessive personality, not that obsession is any indicator of mental illness.

If he goes to the loony bin, well, all of that political posturing has just been a waste of time, and realistically, I think he will commit suicide rather than live with his abysmal failure to become a hero of the extreme right in Europe.

He could just be a sociopath.

 

[The Good Citizen]

He could just be a sociopath.

Yep that and a megalomaniac.

 

[Poguesy]

Be easier just to put a bullet in his brain and stop him from having his fifteen minutes of fame.

 

[Solitary man]

Then he'd just go down as a neo-Nazi martyr, and his grave would become a shrine.

 

[Anonymous Rex]

I'm not sure how he thought that killing 77 innocent people, most of whom were teenagers at a summer camp, was going to stall the tide of Islamification and multiculturalism.

The idea seemed to be that these would be the next generation of liberal politicians, and by taking them out early, they wouldn't be able to 'betray' Norway.
Kind of a twisted take on 'would you kill Hitler as a boy' question.

Medically, I'm not sure how far a belief can be classified as mental illness, or how much it's just the person being a bad person, but my instinct is no, he's not mentally ill.
I get the impression that he's pretty much in control of his thoughts, he just believes it's defensible to murder people who've not yet (even by his morality) done anything wrong.

He's just a bad person.

 

[Poguesy]

Good thing the majority of civilised people wouldn't really give a fresia

 

[TheSolitaryMan]

Is Anders Breivik a dedicated, extremist, ideological, fighter in the war against radical Islam and multiculturalism, or is he merely a paranoid schizophrenic who acted upon his auditory hallucinations?

It's curious, I think the nature of large tragedies seems to demean the human effect of things like this.

I don't particularly like the above description of the court case as "compelling", I have to say - it makes it sound like this is all some kind of real life soap drama or something. I wonder if the same temptation would be there to call the court case of a singular brutal murder of someone's kids "compelling"?

No offence to you intended there Citizen of course, I just merely thought that was some rather odd wording there

Personally, I don't think it's possible to classify someone who executes defenceless civilians en masse with high powered weapons a "dedicated fighter" against anything. The only thing he fights for is twisted hate and division.

At the same time, I don't think he is insane. Typically someone who just explodes in a fit of insane rage doesn't coldly plan a bomb diversion in order to murder nearly 100 perceived political opponents uninterrupted.

The man is definitely a psychopath with very messed up ideals - but also intelligent and sane too by the looks of things.

He is clearly now attempting to turn the court case into a media circus to throw out his views and gain infamy for himself.

I was pretty sickened to see lawyers and other people lining up to shake the man's hand. In my view, if he doesn't recognise the court he should be shut in his cell and an appointed lawyer should carry the case for him.

I'd also like to see the filming of the court case stopped and instead it should be taken care of like any other criminal proceeding. Quite why the media sees fit to give the man a ton of publicity (even broadcasting his fascist salute!) I really don't know.

If anything, that'll just encourage sick individuals to do the same thing again in future.

 

[Solitary man]

Breivik himself is due to take the stand and give evidence soon, and the Judge in charge of the case has stated that media coverage of his testimony shall be disallowed in order to prevent him using the stand as a platform to air his far right wing views.

Psychopaths (I'm assuming he is one) often bask in their notoriety, and court appearances merely act as a spotlight for their gargantuan egos. He feels himself to be a superstar; a villain to most, but a hero to some. But apparently the "Knight's Templar" organisation which he claims to be a member of doesn't even exist, and I'm not sure how many far right wing neo-Nazi nutters actually support his actions, as a recent far right rally in Denmark to protest against Islamification was a total flop; only managing to attract less than 200 supporters.

He is a loner who planned and carried out his actions alone. He'll be sentenced alone, and whether he ends up in a mental Hospital or a prison, he'll probably serve his time alone, as I can't see anyone wanting to share a cell or Hospital ward with him, unless of course they're of the same political ilk and/or sociopathic nature. When sentenced he'll probably be placed in a single cell on 24 hour lock up, and not be allowed to mix with the general prison population for his own personal protection.

 

[EveWasFramed]

He's a murderer - mentally ill or not.

 

[Solitary man]

One of the judges on the case was fired for calling for the introduction of the death penalty in Norway, as apparently Norway doesn't have a death penalty, and their crime rate is very low compared to other European countries.

I guess they're just not used to this type of thing ..

 

[Poguesy]

I believe Norway doesn't have a life imprisonment sentence and is usually set at a maximum of 21 years.

In this case he'll be under "containment" so i guess he will serve life, although it will be still be a lot easier to put a bullet in the brain.

 

[Solitary man]

I guess the nature of his fate shall be determined if they find him mentally ill. He's a radical, right-wing, extremist, of that there is no question. The crucial factor shall be to determine whether or not he is also mentally ill, and so far one report has determined that he is insane, while a follow up report dismissed the findings of the first. So a third report is likely.

It shall be interesting to see how this one plays out.

 

[The Good Citizen]

I don't particularly like the above description of the court case as "compelling", I have to say - it makes it sound like this is all some kind of real life soap drama or something. I wonder if the same temptation would be there to call the court case of a singular brutal murder of someone's kids "compelling"?

No offence to you intended there Citizen of course, I just merely thought that was some rather odd wording there

No problem, I just found seeing his calm demeanour stopped me in my tracks when I should have been getting ready for work. Not in some sort of sick voyeuristic way just a need to make sense of something I couldn't relate to on any level whatsoever. And in response I probably would have a similar feeling regards the murdering of ones children, its not something I could ever understand or feel comfortable even trying to. This trial however has far more widereaching implications in terms of its effect on society.

I only say compelling as in a need to understand the motivation behind why a human being could do this, be it a cold calculated plan or the actions of someone deranged. Which is really what this thread is trying to establish. Of course you can take the line of who cares just shoot him if you believe in capital punishment (which I personally don’t) but the plain logic behind murdering non-Muslims in an attempt to provoke a reaction against Muslims just seems bizarre, I don't even see what he hoped it would achieve. On that basis I think it’s better to show his trial and pick apart his reasons and show his ideals to be just as absurd as his methods and ensure that the outcome is a stronger more united multicultural society. Ensure his only legacy is to strengthen that which he was trying to destroy. Then throw away the key.

 

[Solitary man]

...but the plain logic behind murdering non-Muslims in an attempt to provoke a reaction against Muslims just seems bizarre, I don't even see what he hoped it would achieve. On that basis I think it’s better to show his trial and pick apart his reasons and show his ideals to be just as absurd as his methods and ensure that the outcome is a stronger more united multicultural society. Ensure his only legacy is to strengthen that which he was trying to destroy. Then throw away the key.

On outer appearances and from a distance his logic certainly seems twisted, but apparently the teenagers he gunned down on the island belonged to a youth wing of one of the political parties he opposed; so as has already been stated, he looked upon it as killing his political opponents before they could mature and occupy positions of political power.

In his 1500 page manifesto he takes a multidisciplinary approach and goes into a lot of depth and detail about his distaste for what he terms "cultural Marxism", multiculturalism, Islamification, feminism, and left wing political ideology in general; accusing the left of cultural genocide, and being responsible for eroding traditional Scandinavian and European values. Instead of playing the neo-Nazi he actually paints the left as the fascists and neo-Nazis, accusing them of cultural vandalism and oppression.

He is right in his own right, as the far-right no doubt agree with a lot of what is contained in his manifestio "A European Declaration of Independence". But I am sure that even many staunch exponents of the far right do not agree with his methods. His ideals are absurd to his political opponents, but not to like minded people who are opposed to Islam and multiculturalism. It has mostly been his method, not his beliefs and ideology which has disturbed most people.

Strengthening multiculturalism in order to defeat fascism (he is a fascist, even though he believes himself to be an opponent of red fascism) is a great idea, but you could easily propose that the political doctrine of multiculturalism itself is a form of fascism, as multicultural society has been imposed upon many European nations, including Britain, without any referendum, and without the permission of the indigenous people's of those nations. For example, multiculturalism in the UK is the work of lofty ideologically motivated politicians with a rather naive view of human nature, who imposed it upon the countries that constitute the UK without the consent of the people.

Fact is, the multicultural experiment has failed, it has been disastrous for many parts of the UK, with radical Islam attempting to exert power and control over their own areas and impose Shariah Law on many regions of the UK; something which is totally unacceptable considering the extremist nature of Shariah Law.

Breivik has met extremism with extremism, and gone one further. He may be a stark raving loon, but his political views are in no way unique to him.

 

[The Good Citizen]

Yeah I saw it was the youth wing of the socialist party which just serves to make them the martyrs for the cause he opposes to be honest.

I have mixed views on multiculturalism but only in that I think the main aim is to promote one large homogenous culture which I don't see as a positive anymore than I do globalisation. In my idealist (probably naive) view is a world which can appreciate its similarities and celebrate its differences rather than pretend they don’t exist.

Where I would like to see society to be more inclusive, I do believe that separate cultures should not be feel obliged to dilute their traditions and beliefs just so we can all get along by being more similar. I would however promote a common language as an essential tool for people to understand and relate to each other.

We do have a very free immigration policy in this country and I support that as far as is economically viable, my view is anyone who has the drive to up sticks and move to another country for a better life deserves the opportunity. I don't own the land this ‘country’ sits on and Britain has largely plundered foreign soils to enjoy the privileges it now has anyway. But we have in certain areas failed to successfully integrate ethnic minorities into a wider community. Large areas of Britain belong to one culture be it the home counties which remain largely white or areas of cities which remain almost exclusively Muslim. I think it’s another classic British example of not having thought it through to a successful conclusion.

I work with a lot of people of Muslim and Sikh faiths and I consider a lot of them close works friends, second or third generations mainly. They are proud of their faith and discuss it openly and I take an interest in what they have to say but equally our world views are very similar in terms of right and wrong or morality on just about anything, they also respect their parents views without the need to follow their belief set to the letter. So I can see positive integration working everyday and I think that being born in this country and into this mass media culture over time will mean that society will eventually find a happy medium naturally, a few generations down the line. I don't think you can enforce it by ensuring immigrants know who Winston Churchill was or what year we won the world cup, that’s nonsense.

Whatever Brevik is afraid of, western and Islamist cultures existing in extremist isolation is the quickest way possible to ensure it all ends with a nuclear war in my view because we will still have to interact in terms of foreign diplomacy and economic competition. I’d like to see cultures and faiths have the sharper edges shaved off them through multiculturalism naturally overtime but I also don’t want to promote a world where we all speak the same and view the world the same, that’s a depressing compromise and the easy option in my view.

 

[Solitary man]

When I was in my teens I was an idealistic Anarchist, then embraced Socialism as a more practical way forward, so my political background is very much what Breivik and people of his political ilk despise. I never used the term "multiculturalism" back then, as it hadn't been invented ,or had, but hadn't made it's way into the populist vocabulary. But I was a firm believer in egalitarianism, where all classes, races, religions, political beliefs et al could be regarded as equal, with no social, political or religious group claiming any monopoly to power.

Age and life experience has diluted my once idealistic ideological values. I have experienced what can only be described as aggressive, territorial, racism from black people and Asians on the streets of Birmingham, I have experienced being treated like honeysuckle by Turkish people in the UK, and many Indians and Chinese I have come into contact with have displayed a distinctly supremacist attitude.

Black people know about the racism of Indians, they are well aware of the fact that many Indians look down upon them and regard them as "stupid and lazy". Not my words, the words of black people who have exprienced the racism of Indians in the UK. Radical Islamists in particular have made no secret of the fact that they view the "kuffar" ie. non-Muslims as virtually subhuman. You have to experience the attitude of many Turks (most of whom are Muslim) to appreciate this.

Then of course you have the stereotypical white working class British National Party voter who is an overt or closet racist and in opposition to all of the aforementioned. Is his racism any better than the racism of Asians, Blacks, or the religious extremism of radical Islamists? Of course not. One is as bad as the other. The irony being that all of these racial/political/religious groups don't regard themselves as being sectarian, just loyal to and defensive of their own kind in light of all the nasty racial and religious supremacy out there.

I abandoned political ideology a long time ago, although I'm still sympathetic to Socialism and the proletarian struggle against ruthless capitalism, but I tend to view political phenomena through a clear, pragmatic, common sense lens and see things as they actually are nowadays, and the truth is, multicultural Britain has not become the "melting pot" that its ideological architects had in mind when they created the UK open door immigration policy. There are more tribes of people in the UK clinging for dear life onto their culture and way of life than ever before, and there are consequently more divisions and more bigotry, suspicion, paranoia, and hatred than ever before.

It took me a long time to realise that Anarchists tended to have a very naive, unrealistic, rose-tinted view of human nature, and the same could be applied to those who set the multicultural ball rolling in the UK. Fact is, people are different. We are not all the same. Many people don't want equality, freedom, or peaceful co-existence, they want sectarianism, war, and supremacy, and you don't have to look any further than the numerous documentaries that have been made revealing the radical Islamic hate teaching that has been going on in many of Britain's mosques, where Muslim children are taught to regard the indigenous white people of Britain as being their social inferiors. That is what has been happening, it is well documented fact, and of course if you acknowledge that you are immediately branded as "a racist" by the PC brigade, many of whom are Socialists, and people I once admired.

Not any more. Socialists in the UK have become idiots. Many of them have even gone so far as to either consciously or inadvertently promote Islam, and as people who have traditionally been Atheists and thus opposed to all oppressive organised religion, they should really know better.

 

[Ak5]

Just to bump it up with new info.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/19/world/europe/norway-breivik-trial/index.html?iref=allsearch
http://news.yahoo.com/norwegian-killer-used-computer-wargames-plan-attack-120438499.html

The guy supposedly went gaming for a long period of time to "train" himself to kill the civilians; he used both CoD Modern Warfare and World of Warcraft. He started withdrawing from family and friends to prepare for this slaughter. Someone who thinks that video games are going to prepare them for killing innocent people and expect to successfully evade the police is clearly insane. He also named his weapons based on Norse mythology.

Non compos mentis, lock him until death.

 

[Poguesy]

I look forward to when this trial is over and done with.

He'll become yesterday's news and rot away in his prison cell, with only the thoughts of a bunch of neo-nazi dickheads wanking over his picture to keep him company.

We will then gladly await the next pathetic person to go on a shooting spree, give his even more pathetic reason for doing so and watch the whole ******* thing again.

He and the future ones to come are just sad pathetic creatures who no-one really cares about.

What a waste of life.