Men with low testosterone

[user 176211]

So my research has led me down into the dark world of men with lower testosterone than they should have.

The average man today thats 30 has the testosterone level of a 60 year old man in the 1950s…(the good old days)

Any opinions on this, is this contributing to male depression?

I actually think about this sometimes.

I think about what social, physiological, and mental health factors contribute.

To begin with, I think that adult entertainment is at the forefront of this dynamic I remember growing up in the 90s and remember hearing people complains that "sex is everywhere". In Tv commercials, sitcoms, movies, etc. But we are so far past beyond that now. It's no longer some "sexy stewardess" on a plane on a sitcom. Now you can access ANYTHING at ANYTIME. Of course it's still something of a taboo subject, so people don't really develop a sense of how much people indulge in adult entertainment. But if you're observant, you can catch references to it anywhere. Memes with known adult stars. Jokes predicated on the PHub jingle (), those corny recorded podcasts where younger people sit around and discuss things like body count, and females try to justify and encourage opening OF accounts. Even the ladies! I can't tell you how many time in the officer ladies make references to adult film stars, or popular sites.

All of that roils into the social aspect where we're turning this new corner of younger people having more skewed views on marriage. There's this whole "men are standing up for ourselves now" movement that sees younger men shying away from marriage and starting families because they are becoming hyper aware of skewed laws are when it comes to divorce and child support. Also, it IS pretty clear that men hold no real or significant paternal rights in the eyes of the law. At least here in America. And on the opposite side of that coin, you have women who have archetyped the whole "girl boss" movement that stipulates that any form of submission to a man or a relationship with a man is a sign of weakness. So there is a whole tug of war between men and women today where instead of both pulling the oppose gender to each other, both sides are pushing away in a weird reverse tug of war.

And then couple all THAT with a society where men are being actively penalized for being masculine and masculinity has been associated with toxicity. Lots of men, to be quite frank and honest, are hesitant towards being "aggressive" (not in a creepy or bad way) in terms of pursuing women, because lets face it, men don't get a second chance when it comes to accusations. And accusations can take anything from a genuine compliment to a friendly coffee date proposal and turn them into a "verbal S. Assault" and a "sex proposal". And everyone is guilty in the court of public opinion. Men don't just get their lives back after accusations that are blown out of proportion or falsely made (not to say that other allegations aren't legit). So I have spoken to many men who express that it's not "worth it".

I think that in these new times, younger men are turning to the internet.

That's just my opinion, but who am I? I'm just a guy.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I kind of wonder if I have low testosterone. For one thing, I'm a naturally skinny person, I don't naturally have a lot of muscles. I've never really been happy with this.

For two, I don't have much aggression, competitive drive, or the dominant/disagreeable personality (though I do want to do better in life, but that's another story). I guess I never had the traits to justify having these things - still, not only have I disagreed with these things, and with the people who have these traits, but I'm just not interested in it. I think it's backwards and boring. My interests are in other things. I'm more curious and agreeable, than competitive and disagreeable.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I used to play pick-up games of different sports, or card and board games, and I would try, I didn't like to lose, but it was just something I did for fun. I wasn't out for blood, or to prove anything. I always felt like the point was just to have a good time.

I'm also not much of a risk-taker. It always seemed to make more sense NOT to do it, than to do it. I guess I never had faith that my strength and skills were enough to mitigate the risk and turn it into an opportunity or a thrill, rather than just stress and danger. And again, I just didn't have the interest.

I'm also not much for vulgarity and lewd and crudeness. I swear but I do because I'm angry, not because I'm trying to be "cool" or "tough" or "dark"/"edgy". And the lewdness/crudeness, I don't know. I'm trying to be less uptight and more with the modern world, but at the same time, I don't feel like it's "me". I was raised more on the wholesome side and that's what feels "right" to me.

The thing is, a lot of the time, those traits seem to be almost interchangeable with "masculinity", especially in America. I wouldn't describe myself as feminine, but I wouldn't say I'm that masculine either. Certainly not macho. I just see being a guy as a default characteristic, like skin/hair/eye color, height, and similar things. I never really thought about it much beyond that. I never thought there were all these "rules" to being a man, I thought we could make our lives however we wanted, and make our lives ABOUT whatever we wanted. But more and more, it seems like, no, there really ARE rules, and you have to either follow them, or get stuck in a bad life. There's leeway to follow the rules in a way that works for you, but no leeway to NOT follow the rules at all.

The only time I DO feel aggression though, is that I hate feeling like someone is trying to kick me into low status, insult or bully me, humiliate or dominate me. I mean I just HATE it. The thought of being limited/inferior/subservient, really bothers me, and I've always been this way.

But the only way out (besides winning the lotto) is to get good at something, and I don't know if I can.
I HATE thinking that I'm only fit for servitude out of being inherently limited/inept.
But there's never been anything where I feel like I'm naturally competent at it, where it is my strength.
That's pretty much been the source of a lot of my pain, my whole life. It's the reason why I've been stuck like this.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I actually think about this sometimes.

I think about what social, physiological, and mental health factors contribute.

To begin with, I think that adult entertainment is at the forefront of this dynamic I remember growing up in the 90s and remember hearing people complains that "sex is everywhere". In Tv commercials, sitcoms, movies, etc. But we are so far past beyond that now. It's no longer some "sexy stewardess" on a plane on a sitcom. Now you can access ANYTHING at ANYTIME. Of course it's still something of a taboo subject, so people don't really develop a sense of how much people indulge in adult entertainment. But if you're observant, you can catch references to it anywhere. Memes with known adult stars. Jokes predicated on the PHub jingle (), those corny recorded podcasts where younger people sit around and discuss things like body count, and females try to justify and encourage opening OF accounts. Even the ladies! I can't tell you how many time in the officer ladies make references to adult film stars, or popular sites.

All of that roils into the social aspect where we're turning this new corner of younger people having more skewed views on marriage. There's this whole "men are standing up for ourselves now" movement that sees younger men shying away from marriage and starting families because they are becoming hyper aware of skewed laws are when it comes to divorce and child support. Also, it IS pretty clear that men hold no real or significant paternal rights in the eyes of the law. At least here in America. And on the opposite side of that coin, you have women who have archetyped the whole "girl boss" movement that stipulates that any form of submission to a man or a relationship with a man is a sign of weakness. So there is a whole tug of war between men and women today where instead of both pulling the oppose gender to each other, both sides are pushing away in a weird reverse tug of war.

And then couple all THAT with a society where men are being actively penalized for being masculine and masculinity has been associated with toxicity. Lots of men, to be quite frank and honest, are hesitant towards being "aggressive" (not in a creepy or bad way) in terms of pursuing women, because lets face it, men don't get a second chance when it comes to accusations. And accusations can take anything from a genuine compliment to a friendly coffee date proposal and turn them into a "verbal S. Assault" and a "sex proposal". And everyone is guilty in the court of public opinion. Men don't just get their lives back after accusations that are blown out of proportion or falsely made (not to say that other allegations aren't legit). So I have spoken to many men who express that it's not "worth it".

I think that in these new times, younger men are turning to the internet.

That's just my opinion, but who am I? I'm just a guy.

I totally agree with this, especially the bit about adult entertainment entering the mainstream.

Honestly, and this might sound weird coming from me since I'm almost always left-leaning, but this is like the one point where I actually agree with the conservative view.

I think porn culture should go back underground, or better yet just go away.

However, I don't think prohibition/coercion works as a strategy - it didn't work with alcohol. People have to want to change on their own. Coercion just breeds resentment - people have to feel like it's in their own best interest to quit, or they have to want something else more than they want the habit. I'm a big believer that bad habits have to be replaced with something of equal or greater value, not just being replaced with nothing. I don't think that's much of an incentive for change.

But yeah, overall I think it makes relations between men and women worse. It promotes more hierarchical thinking, more cold competition, it's like going back to Darwinism and base instinct where you're only as good as what you were born with, and away from, I don't know, nicer relationships I guess.

 

[user 190541]

If men have indeed lower blood testosterone levels nowadays than before, then the reason must be plastics/microplastics/chemicals. It's the explanation that makes the most sense.

Now, with that out of the way, we should not fall victim to the ages-old mistake of attributing biological-natural causes to behaviours that are socially determined. Even if a man has indeed decreased blood testosterones levels, he would still be a more "manly" man were he born in ******* 4th century BC Sparta than a man with higher testosterone levels who was born 20 years ago in, I don't know, Sweden. It's pretty obvious, don't you guys think?

And even then, there's nothing wrong with being unmanly. Lots of dudes are under the impression that manly men have it way better with women than unmanly men, but that's not necessarily the case. In fact, I've known many unmanly men fare really well with the ladies.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

To begin with, I think that adult entertainment is at the forefront of this dynamic I remember growing up in the 90s and remember hearing people complains that "sex is everywhere". In Tv commercials, sitcoms, movies, etc. But we are so far past beyond that now. It's no longer some "sexy stewardess" on a plane on a sitcom. Now you can access ANYTHING at ANYTIME. Of course it's still something of a taboo subject, so people don't really develop a sense of how much people indulge in adult entertainment. But if you're observant, you can catch references to it anywhere. Memes with known adult stars. Jokes predicated on the PHub jingle (), those corny recorded podcasts where younger people sit around and discuss things like body count, and females try to justify and encourage opening OF accounts. Even the ladies! I can't tell you how many time in the officer ladies make references to adult film stars, or popular sites.

Personally, I find it's the opposite, that the mainstream media has become more prudish in my lifetime with regards to sex.

There's a lot less nudity in films in the last 10-15 years. As much as we grew up with the raunchy sex comedies of the 80s up until American Pie, it was fairly normal for respectable films to show nudity, Titanic being a prime example. Now? Name the last PG-13 movie that showed a topless woman. Even in TV, people point to Game Of Thrones as example of 'too much sex', the drop-off from Season 1 to 8 is like a cliff dive, with producers stating for House Of The Dragon that they're moving away from that altogether. Most social media bans nudity of all forms, because kids can see footage of drone strikes in Ukraine, but god forbid they see a nipple that isn't a man's.

In the UK especially, we're becoming more prudish. In the early 2000s it used to be common for softcore "Lad's Mags" to be around, until large chains refused to sell them, or put them behind a panel to block the view from the public. Mysteriously, these magazines went bust because of low sales. We even mounted a campaign to remove the topless women from Page 3 of The Sun because we're that offended by nudity. Playboy isn't even available as a magazine anymore, because places just refused to sell it.

 

[TheSkaFish]

In the UK especially, we're becoming more prudish. In the early 2000s it used to be common for softcore "Lad's Mags" to be around, until large chains refused to sell them, or put them behind a panel to block the view from the public. Mysteriously, these magazines went bust because of low sales. We even mounted a campaign to remove the topless women from Page 3 of The Sun because we're that offended by nudity.

Even as an American, I knew of Page 3.

Post-weight gain Lucy Collett was my kind of woman - at least physically

But, it's just as well they took those magazines away. Can't go down that road, lol.

 

[Biran]

Do you think depression makes you feel like you aren’t masculine?

Yeah. I know it's stupid to buy into the "men need to be made of iron" thing, but I wish I lived up to that image. Instead, I just feel like a weak mess.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Yeah. I know it's stupid to buy into the "men need to be made of iron" thing, but I wish I lived up to that image. Instead, I just feel like a weak mess.

Yeah even as a woman I often expect men to be super strong, if he’s not I get stressed outtt.I cant tolerate a moment of even slight weakness from my fella.. not sure how to change that out look

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

One thing I never understood about the low/high testosterone theory:

So, men with high testosterone typically have a high sex drive, that’s a recognised symptom, and if they have a partner with a similar ‘drive’ they’re releasing that ‘tension’ on a regular basis.

However, men with “low testosterone” are addicted to porn and masturbating their masculinity away.

Call me stupid but, don’t both of those things have the same… result? Like, if a guy needs ‘it’ every day, whether he’s doing it with a partner or by himself, it’s the same process on a chemical level, same hormones & endorphins etc. I get it, one is clearly better than the other, I’m just not sure why one is considered high testosterone and the other is low, when both are signs of high libido.

 

[Unsigned]

One thing I never understood about the low/high testosterone theory:

So, men with high testosterone typically have a high sex drive, that’s a recognised symptom, and if they have a partner with a similar ‘drive’ they’re releasing that ‘tension’ on a regular basis.

However, men with “low testosterone” are addicted to porn and masturbating their masculinity away.

Call me stupid but, don’t both of those things have the same… result? Like, if a guy needs ‘it’ every day, whether he’s doing it with a partner or by himself, it’s the same process on a chemical level, same hormones & endorphins etc. I get it, one is clearly better than the other, I’m just not sure why one is considered high testosterone and the other is low, when both are signs of high libido.

That was never my understanding (although I could have it wrong).
I believe what I have read is that continual use of porn (especially to "completion") leads to a change in brain chemistry in SOME men, and that then leads to low-T and E.D.

Yeah even as a woman I often expect men to be super strong, if he’s not I get stressed outtt.

Not sure what you mean by this, but if it is what I think, then it is no good.
So the girl I went to Korea for expected me to be perfect all the time. To be like a stoic, cool headed navy pilot type at all times.
And once in a while WE ALL sweat the small stuff, lose temper, get upset over something stupid, etc...
And she really held that against me.
Meanwhile, I was 100% supporting her financially at the time.
So I had all this pressure on me and she couldn't just sit there and take it the few times I yelled at her?
No, I'm sorry. Females have to give good guys a break if they blow a gasket and vent every so often.
As long as it's not constant abuse or anything physical...give the guy a break and let it roll off your back.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

One thing I never understood about the low/high testosterone theory:

So, men with high testosterone typically have a high sex drive, that’s a recognised symptom, and if they have a partner with a similar ‘drive’ they’re releasing that ‘tension’ on a regular basis.

However, men with “low testosterone” are addicted to porn and masturbating their masculinity away.

Call me stupid but, don’t both of those things have the same… result? Like, if a guy needs ‘it’ every day, whether he’s doing it with a partner or by himself, it’s the same process on a chemical level, same hormones & endorphins etc. I get it, one is clearly better than the other, I’m just not sure why one is considered high testosterone and the other is low, when both are signs of high libido.

The issue with porn addiction is that it leads to desensitisation to sexual stimuli. Sex doesn't have that effect just touching a mans arm is enough to increase his testosterone level in a natural way. Porn has more of a spike effect. I guess the easiest way to describe it is think of your testosterone as insulin and sex as natural sugar found in fruit and porn as refined sugars found in processed foods. You’re asking why is eating all the sugar found in fruit not as bad as the chocolates. People who abuse refined sugars will find natural sugar no longer has the desired effect. Hope that made sense.

That was never my understanding (although I could have it wrong).
I believe what I have read is that continual use of porn (especially to "completion") leads to a change in brain chemistry in SOME men, and that then leads to low-T and E.D.



Not sure what you mean by this, but if it is what I think, then it is no good.
So the girl I went to Korea for expected me to be perfect all the time. To be like a stoic, cool headed navy pilot type at all times.
And once in a while WE ALL sweat the small stuff, lose temper, get upset over something stupid, etc...
And she really held that against me.
Meanwhile, I was 100% supporting her financially at the time.
So I had all this pressure on me and she couldn't just sit there and take it the few times I yelled at her?
No, I'm sorry. Females have to give good guys a break if they blow a gasket and vent every so often.
As long as it's not constant abuse or anything physical...give the guy a break and let it roll off your back.

Its strange I agree and disagree, I dont mind my man getting angry, omg the amount of times Rob has told me off for doing something he didnt like I just dont tolerate anything I find unmanly. If he acts unmanly in the slightest, ever, he is not the man for me good luck to him and someone who appreciates feminine men though. Its all love not trying to bash anyone but to be with the princess theres a standard, a masculinity level a man has to hit.

 

[Cherubino]

You better train your mind than testosterone otherwise you attract bimbos

 

[Cherubino]

The only true benefit of having a decent level of testosterone is to avoid bullying

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

The issue with porn addiction is that it leads to desensitisation to sexual stimuli. Sex doesn't have that effect just touching a mans arm is enough to increase his testosterone level in a natural way. Porn has more of a spike effect. I guess the easiest way to describe it is think of your testosterone as insulin and sex as natural sugar found in fruit and porn as refined sugars found in processed foods. You’re asking why is eating all the sugar found in fruit not as bad as the chocolates. People who abuse refined sugars will find natural sugar no longer has the desired effect. Hope that made sense.

I understand that porn desensitises people to sexual stimuli, but isn’t that a separate issue to testosterone production? That’s a mental thing, surely.

The only true benefit of having a decent level of testosterone is to avoid bullying

I would disagree on that one. As much as it’s not the be-all and end-all, there are a number of things it benefits: quality of sleep, energy levels, red blood cell production, bone density etc. I’m not encouraging anyone to pay those services, but if there is anything you can do to improve it, it literally can only help.

 

[Cherubino]

I would disagree on that one. As much as it’s not the be-all and end-all, there are a number of things it benefits: quality of sleep, energy levels, red blood cell production, bone density etc. I’m not encouraging anyone to pay those services, but if there is anything you can do to improve it, it literally can only help.

I agree there are some other secondary benefits but for people like me dignity is more precious than life

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I understand that porn desensitises people to sexual stimuli, but isn’t that a separate issue to testosterone production? That’s a mental thing, surely.


I would disagree on that one. As much as it’s not the be-all and end-all, there are a number of things it benefits: quality of sleep, energy levels, red blood cell production, bone density etc. I’m not encouraging anyone to pay those services, but if there is anything you can do to improve it, it literally can only help.

Ah heres me half explaining.. the desensitisation impacts your libido which impacts your testosterone

 

[TheSkaFish]

So the girl I went to Korea for expected me to be perfect all the time. To be like a stoic, cool headed navy pilot type at all times.
And once in a while WE ALL sweat the small stuff, lose temper, get upset over something stupid, etc...
And she really held that against me.

D**n dude. If I was the guy in that situation, and my girlfriend expected me to be stoic all the time, I would feel like I was coming home from work, to a second job, with a second boss. A second place where I have to wear a mask, say my lines, pretend to be someone and something I'm not. It would be mentally and emotionally exhausting, I'd feel like I was expected to be a machine.

It's important to me to be with a woman that lets me be a human being, instead of expecting me to be a stereotype or a caricature, like some kind of two-dimensional cartoon character. I don't mean that I want the freedom to fly off the handle at the woman. I just mean I want someone who understands that I'm human, and gives me space to feel the full range of human emotions we all have.

I'd like someone to give me the freedom to say "I don't know", or "xyz thing is getting me down". I never really believed in the stoic thing, like what person is really like that all the time? I felt like it had to be lying to oneself, and I've never liked fakeness of any kind.

I'm also looking for a three-dimensional person too. It's not like I expect them to rip off their clothes and bring me a beer on the double as soon as I get in the door.

One can only hope people like that still exist, and haven't all devolved into Darwin-bots now.

 

[TheSkaFish]

As far as the sex vs porn thing goes, I always thought of it as, sex is like being happy because you actually have a good life. It's actual happiness from being actually fulfilled. Porn is like being happy because while your life might suck, you THINK you're happy because you're drunk or high on drugs, to the point where you've given up on anything else and all you want is more booze/drugs. It's artificially induced, fake sh*tty quality "happiness".

One is actual stimulation from a feeling of wellness, while the other is more numbness, in an attempt to take the edge off of being stuck in a life that sucks.
That's how I see it anyway.

 

[kinzeUK]

The issue with porn addiction is that it leads to desensitisation to sexual stimuli. Sex doesn't have that effect just touching a mans arm is enough to increase his testosterone level in a natural way. Porn has more of a spike effect. I guess the easiest way to describe it is think of your testosterone as insulin and sex as natural sugar found in fruit and porn as refined sugars found in processed foods. You’re asking why is eating all the sugar found in fruit not as bad as the chocolates. People who abuse refined sugars will find natural sugar no longer has the desired effect. Hope that made sense.

It sure did Cen and I couldn't agree more

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I agree there are some other secondary benefits but for people like me dignity is more precious than life

Could you expand on that? Perhaps I didn't read it correctly, but I can't follow how raising your testosterone equals a lack of dignity.

As far as the sex vs porn thing goes, I always thought of it as, sex is like being happy because you actually have a good life. It's actual happiness from being actually fulfilled. Porn is like being happy because while your life might suck, you THINK you're happy because you're drunk or high on drugs, to the point where you've given up on anything else and all you want is more booze/drugs. It's artificially induced, fake sh*tty quality "happiness".

One is actual stimulation from a feeling of wellness, while the other is more numbness, in an attempt to take the edge off of being stuck in a life that sucks.
That's how I see it anyway.

Right, but what I'm asking is, do you think your brain can tell the difference? As in; the dopamine rush from cumming into a tissue, or with a woman, is it not the same chemical experience?

Like the rat in a cage that was wired up to receive a dopamine rush every time he pressed a button, he ended up preferring it over food & water because it was just pure pleasure, even though on some level it must have known the food & water would be more beneficial.

Mentally, sure, sex is much better for you as there's some connection with another human being thrown in there. I'm just not understanding how someone who jerks off to porn 6 times a day can be considered as having a "low sex drive", when clearly he's thinking about it more than the average person.