Appreciating Platonic Relationships

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I love my friends. I wouldn't trade them for the world. Not very interested in romantic relationships, they ask me to give up too much of myself and re-arrange my whole life when I have plans and things I wish to do. Romantic relationships aren't fulfilling to me, but I would do anything for my friends.
 
Ymir said:
WildernessWildChild said:
Mr.YellowCat said:
To offer friendship to someone seeking love, is like offering bread to someone thirsty.

That is a very interesting thought, reminds me so much of someone I recently dated....she absolutely needs/wants someone so frantically that it took the joy of discovery away.

You can always refuse the bread without making less of it just because you want water.

(As in I'm SO TIRED of people making less of friendship just because it's not what they want. I mean, ****, if you can't appreciate it, that's your problem.)

Are you sure you're only 17? That's **** deep thinking Ymir- I wouldn't have been there for sure....still not some days.
 
WildernessWildChild said:
Ymir said:
WildernessWildChild said:
Mr.YellowCat said:
To offer friendship to someone seeking love, is like offering bread to someone thirsty.

That is a very interesting thought, reminds me so much of someone I recently dated....she absolutely needs/wants someone so frantically that it took the joy of discovery away.

You can always refuse the bread without making less of it just because you want water.

(As in I'm SO TIRED of people making less of friendship just because it's not what they want. I mean, ****, if you can't appreciate it, that's your problem.)

Are you sure you're only 17? That's **** deep thinking Ymir- I wouldn't have been there for sure....still not some days.

Deep thinking is the root of all of my problems :club:
 
Ymir said:
WildernessWildChild said:
Ymir said:
WildernessWildChild said:
Mr.YellowCat said:
To offer friendship to someone seeking love, is like offering bread to someone thirsty.

That is a very interesting thought, reminds me so much of someone I recently dated....she absolutely needs/wants someone so frantically that it took the joy of discovery away.

You can always refuse the bread without making less of it just because you want water.

(As in I'm SO TIRED of people making less of friendship just because it's not what they want. I mean, ****, if you can't appreciate it, that's your problem.)

Are you sure you're only 17? That's **** deep thinking Ymir- I wouldn't have been there for sure....still not some days.

Deep thinking is the root of all of my problems :club:

Making me even more grateful that I banged my head when I fell off the turnip truck :D
 
To be rejected and remain friends with someone is awesome. Sure, rejection sucks, but I know I could certainly value a true friend. Heck, more than anything else in a partner/love interest/so/whatever you wanna call it, I'd want a true friend first and foremost.

Now, to work towards being friends at a time you thought the interest in that much was mutual, take a leap at something more, and slowly come to the realization after being rejected that the person isn't really interested in being much of a friend to you either, based on a series of acts that scream APATHY... well, that's just lame. That's the only kind of "friend-zoning" I've ever encountered. I think NRF-Zone for Not Really Friends is more appropriate a term.

Can anyone feel me on that kind of an experience?


Pike Creek said:
...I know that one guy liked me and wanted more, but although I thought he was good looking, he had a great job, funny guy...made me laugh constantly and we had similar interests...I just didn't feel that sexual spark ...

confused

Are people supposed to constantly get a "sexual spark" (I may be off in my assumption of what you mean here) from their partner?
I would think it's something that can be expected to pop up from time to time when dealing with someone you deem good looking, and that should be more than enough on the "looks/sexual" front of the relationship. See, here's where some people just strike me as quite a bit picky. There are women I really don't find physically attractive at all, so to expect a sexual spark wouldn't make sense. But to say I find a person good looking and they have so many other +1s going for them, then backtrack and say "but... sexual spark"... That's some strict criteria considering that sexual spark could be just around the corner. Maybe she and I haven't made it to that scenario where the spark could occur. Sure, maybe there's no spark during a dinner date at a diner while talking about the chaos in the world, or during brief small talk while in work attire, or during some random meeting at a grocer... but perhaps during a poetry reading session or cooking a meal for the first time together... Give chance to reach those moments before deciding there is/can be no sexual spark from someone you find good looking AND has so many other positives, no?
 
Ymir said:
You can always refuse the bread without making less of it just because you want water.

(As in I'm SO TIRED of people making less of friendship just because it's not what they want. I mean, ****, if you can't appreciate it, that's your problem.)

Thank you for this. I completely agree. Too many people just tend to want what they want, and don't even care that they're not the only person walking this planet who matters. We don't always get what we want, and we should appreciate what we do have.

jjam said:
Pike Creek said:
...I know that one guy liked me and wanted more, but although I thought he was good looking, he had a great job, funny guy...made me laugh constantly and we had similar interests...I just didn't feel that sexual spark ...

confused

Are people supposed to constantly get a "sexual spark" (I may be off in my assumption of what you mean here) from their partner?

I get what Pike's saying. Also, I don't know if this is accurate, but by the wording, it didn't seem like they were really in a deep relationship, hence him wanting more, but Pike probably didn't go for it. Not because he was horrible, but because she just didn't feel it.

Pike, if I'm wrong, please correct me.
 
Maybe I worded it wrong...this guy Steve and I were very good friends. We NEVER got romantic because I didn't feel any passion/sexual spark/romance for him. We met through a group of friends and mostly hung out as a group for about 6 years. After the group kind of dispersed, Steve and I remained friends and did lots of stuff together as friends.

The point I was trying to make I guess was that even though I thought he had other wonderful attributes, like his intelligence, sense of humour, great looks, nice body, interests in common etc...I never felt an attraction enough to go beyond friendship and be bf and gf with him. In this thread, there was some discussion implying that women who only see men as friends don't see them as real men, so I wanted to make a point that I saw Steve, of course, as a real man...but not the right man for me to be in a relationship with....is that more clear? If I don't feel a spark to want to kiss a man, I can't go beyond a friendship, for me personally there has to be a spark, and I label that a sexual spark. And of course I very much appreciated our platonic friendship because we were very close to each other and very comfortable too.
 
Hey alonewith2cats, this is a really great thread you've started. :)

I've always thought that our friendships with other people define us as individuals, not our romantic relationships. I know many, many, many people who view friendship as something to simply "fall back on" when they're between romances, and once they're back in the comfortable rut of a relationship, friendships are left to go fallow until the next interval. I find that mindset so sad and boring.

I also agree with your comment about how we should be less carnal and more philosophical (or spiritual, as you said) in forming relationships. I think that's a really enlightened attitude. :) Unfortunately, we're indoctrinated as a society into believing that if you're not in a romantic relationship, or sleeping with someone at least, you're somehow deficient or broken. Perhaps that's why people feel the need for "friend zones". Anyway, that's my two cents. :D
 
The thing is, there are people who can consistently date the people they want to. They know what to say and do and how to conduct themselves in a way that gets a "yes". They know how to build up attraction in others. They don't have to rely on luck. They're in control of what they get.

Then there are other people who just can't seem to get past "let's just be friends", over and over and over again. This is where I find myself, on a consistent basis. It's like, their presence, their personality is too weak to create the sexual spark. This is what makes me think there's got to be a reason, because of the consistency of the results. If you keep doing something wrong, or not doing something right, you keep missing what you aim for.

I don't think I'm asking the wrong women either, because like I said, I find them all very physically attractive and very interesting - we do have enough overlap in our interests to carry a decent conversation. Something about me must communicate to them that I am not boyfriend material. I just wish I knew what it was. I think it's because I'm too nice and not interesting enough, I don't have enough going on in my life. I look at other people my age and they usually have more stories, they've done a lot more. But I haven't yet committed to a path.

I also wonder if the problem isn't that I come across as needy by default, since I'm not interested in just any woman. What I want is very specific, but they are all that can take me where I want to go. They're the only ones I've met who can give me the experiences I want to experience and the feelings I want to feel. I just know we could have some real conversations feel like we'd really be able to find where the action is happening. But I just won't be able to have the same experiences with just any woman - with most others, it would just be more like bs'ing away the time at a bar, talking about nothing, then going back to someone's place to watch TV until it's time to call it a day. But then if wanting a specific woman makes you come across as needy, then how can you have any preference? It's like, you just have to hope that someone you like will just randomly pick you, otherwise you have to settle for whoever happens to like you and never experience real happiness here but just "getting through it", the way we just "get through" our day jobs. But I know that there are some people who know how to create the spark with who they want. I know people have done it and I want to learn how to do it too. But what really gets me is unless I can somehow re-frame how these women see me, I've already blown it because I didn't move fast enough and I didn't have the right stuff at the right time and now it's all downhill from here. I hate thinking that I just get what I randomly get, and if I'm not happy with that then it doesn't matter because that's all I get to experience in this one life.

jjam said:
I would think it's something that can be expected to pop up from time to time when dealing with someone you deem good looking, and that should be more than enough on the "looks/sexual" front of the relationship. See, here's where some people just strike me as quite a bit picky. There are women I really don't find physically attractive at all, so to expect a sexual spark wouldn't make sense. But to say I find a person good looking and they have so many other +1s going for them, then backtrack and say "but... sexual spark"... That's some strict criteria considering that sexual spark could be just around the corner. Maybe she and I haven't made it to that scenario where the spark could occur. Sure, maybe there's no spark during a dinner date at a diner while talking about the chaos in the world, or during brief small talk while in work attire, or during some random meeting at a grocer... but perhaps during a poetry reading session or cooking a meal for the first time together... Give chance to reach those moments before deciding there is/can be no sexual spark from someone you find good looking AND has so many other positives, no?

Yea, that's what frustrates me too. I'm sure my looks are okay, and we can talk, and we can laugh, and have enough to keep a conversation going. That's what I thought relationship material was - when you both like each others' looks, can talk for hours without it getting boring, can tell each other anything without it getting awkward, when you can tell each other your thoughts and dreams without restraint, and them actually caring about what you say, and really "getting" you in a deeper way than most people. That's what I thought creating the sexual spark was, when they have everything you are looking for. But it looks like creating a sexual spark is an entirely separate skill. It confuses me greatly. In my own situation, that's what I'm thinking. We already "mesh", that was the word she used - so why can't it work? Maybe we just haven't made it to the point where a spark can occur. But it seems premature to say that it can't ever happen even though all the other positives are in place. It's like, it hasn't been given a proper chance for it to bloom, but I really think it could if we just set up or wait for the right conditions. That's what frustrates me so much about this.
 
...the sexual spark thing. It's hard to define because in my case recently, it happened on the first date. Again, hard to explain, but he made me feel like the sexiest woman he's ever met...not with bold sexual gestures...just the way he treated me. Lots of compliments, chivalry, intelligent conversation and longing looks I suppose, without being an arrogant macho type. The relationships I've had never started off as friendships though, they were official dates with romantic intentions that became both romance and friendship. With the guy Steve I mentioned above, we started off as friends, so the idea of anything more than that didn't even hit my radar. I've had a lot of guy friends, and once they are friends, I can't seem to find that spark no matter what their qualities.
 
Pike Creek said:
...the sexual spark thing. It's hard to define because in my case recently, it happened on the first date. Again, hard to explain, but he made me feel like the sexiest woman he's ever met...not with bold sexual gestures...just the way he treated me. Lots of compliments, chivalry, intelligent conversation and longing looks I suppose, without being an arrogant macho type. The relationships I've had never started off as friendships though, they were official dates with romantic intentions that became both romance and friendship. With the guy Steve I mentioned above, we started off as friends, so the idea of anything more than that didn't even hit my radar. I've had a lot of guy friends, and once they are friends, I can't seem to find that spark no matter what their qualities.

That's interesting. I wonder if that might not be my problem. You mentioned the idea that the relationships you had never started off as friendships, but official dates from day 1. I've never done that before. Like that guy Steve, I've always started out as friends with the women I'm interested in. It makes sense to me, because I need to feel out if there is even anything I like about them other than their looks. But if I do, I don't have any such barrier when it comes to who I would date/sleep with/pursue romance with. If the looks, intelligence, interests, conversational connection, personality, and sweetness are there, then I'd have no problem moving them up from "just friends" to "would date", regardless of what premise under which we started our interactions. Maybe that's a male idea. I don't know.

But the thing is, I've heard of many cases of guys starting out as friends with a girl they wind up with later. In fact, I've even heard of some people recommending that, because if you can't even stand to be friends with someone, how can you love them?

And the other thing is, I've heard that if you compliment a woman too much, it comes off as groveling, as putting her on a pedestal. I've heard that it was a bad thing to do and a sure way of landing you in the friend zone. But you say it is well received? And I've also heard that the arrogant macho type thing is good to do - which would explain a lot, since I've never felt comfortable with that and have never wanted to be that way - and perhaps as a result, I continue to fail with women I want because I'm not very macho.
 
TheSkaFish said:
That's interesting. I wonder if that might not be my problem. You mentioned the idea that the relationships you had never started off as friendships, but official dates from day 1. I've never done that before. Like that guy Steve, I've always started out as friends with the women I'm interested in. It makes sense to me, because I need to feel out if there is even anything I like about them other than their looks. But if I do, I don't have any such barrier when it comes to who I would date/sleep with/pursue romance with. If the looks, intelligence, interests, conversational connection, personality, and sweetness are there, then I'd have no problem moving them up from "just friends" to "would date", regardless of what premise under which we started our interactions. Maybe that's a male idea. I don't know.

Everyone's taste is different, I can say in my case that a man who starts off being a friend of mine usually stays that way. When I want romance, I look for romance. With my bf, I had a date with him after 2 days of chatting online back and forth. The moment I saw him, he looked at me with a nice smile and told me I was beautiful and sexy. Of course, this got my interest because he made me feel very desired. After a few dates, we got to know each other pretty well, but yes, they were always dates, so romance was definitely the goal. A relationship was the prize. I think if you take too long to "feel out" a girl, you may lose your chance, just my opinion.

TheSkaFish said:
But the thing is, I've heard of many cases of guys starting out as friends with a girl they wind up with later. In fact, I've even heard of some people recommending that, because if you can't even stand to be friends with someone, how can you love them?

I'm sure that happens with some people. But one thing to remember is that you can develop a deep intimate friendship while dating someone romantically also.

TheSkaFish said:
And the other thing is, I've heard that if you compliment a woman too much, it comes off as groveling, as putting her on a pedestal. I've heard that it was a bad thing to do and a sure way of landing you in the friend zone. But you say it is well received? And I've also heard that the arrogant macho type thing is good to do - which would explain a lot, since I've never felt comfortable with that and have never wanted to be that way - and perhaps as a result, I continue to fail with women I want because I'm not very macho.

When you're dating, I would say yes, absolutely, compliments are very well received. Though, I think they are not well received if they are excessive and/or the girl only thinks of you as a friend from the get-go. I do believe that if you are in the "friend zone", you probably have been from the beginning. But I think a woman's body language and facial expression will tell you if she's uncomfortable with your compliments.

Maybe I misused "macho" because that can be defined as a man who is very masculine...which of course is what lots of women find attractive. Women like their men masculine and men like their women feminine...is that too much of an obvious and general statement? I mean, I like my man to look and act like a man.... But that doesn't mean I want an arrogant a-hole who comes off as a player, which probably attracts a more shallow woman, but I don't know because I avoid men who are arrogant and women who are shallow.
 
Pike Creek said:
I think if you take too long to "feel out" a girl, you may lose your chance, just my opinion.

.....I do believe that if you are in the "friend zone", you probably have been from the beginning. But I think a woman's body language and facial expression will tell you if she's uncomfortable with your compliments.

Agh. I just hate how it's so final, though. One strike and you're out, as a man, you're basically dead to her. What if a person went away for a while and came back later? Could that erase the "just friends" barrier and give them a chance to try again?

Pike Creek said:
Maybe I misused "macho" because that can be defined as a man who is very masculine...which of course is what lots of women find attractive. Women like their men masculine and men like their women feminine...is that too much of an obvious and general statement? I mean, I like my man to look and act like a man.... But that doesn't mean I want an arrogant a-hole who comes off as a player, which probably attracts a more shallow woman, but I don't know because I avoid men who are arrogant and women who are shallow.

That makes sense. I find it hard to relate to a girly-girl but I'm wanting an at least somewhat feminine woman. Idk where I stand on the masculine spectrum either. I mean, I don't watch sports but I play them sometimes with friends. I like cars and beer and rock 'n roll. But I also like to read and have a creative side. And I like animals. And I like to be more gentle and friendly rather than confrontational or looking to dominate other people. And I don't go around acting "hard", adopting a thuggish persona. I also manage to have fun without breaking the law, I don't think it's worth the risk and there really aren't that many illegal things I'd be remotely interested in anyway. I don't know.
 
TheSkaFish said:
Pike Creek said:
I think if you take too long to "feel out" a girl, you may lose your chance, just my opinion.

.....I do believe that if you are in the "friend zone", you probably have been from the beginning. But I think a woman's body language and facial expression will tell you if she's uncomfortable with your compliments.

Agh. I just hate how it's so final, though. One strike and you're out, as a man, you're basically dead to her. What if a person went away for a while and came back later? Could that erase the "just friends" barrier and give them a chance to try again?

That completely misses the point of a friend.
 
That's funny, Pike, I'm the complete opposite. I can only ever look at a guy with romantic intentions if we are good friends first, or at least if we get along well enough that we could be good friends. That sexual spark idea is beyond me as well: if I grow fond of a guy I'll wind up finding him attractive even if I didn't previously.
 
Ymir said:
That's funny, Pike, I'm the complete opposite. I can only ever look at a guy with romantic intentions if we are good friends first, or at least if we get along well enough that we could be good friends. That sexual spark idea is beyond me as well: if I grow fond of a guy I'll wind up finding him attractive even if I didn't previously.

exactly - many guys don't want to be your friend, or take the time to really get to know you - they just want a quick fix of something (sex, their idea of romance, self-validation) - it is really rare and precious to find a guy who wants to (also) be a friend
 
Both women AND men participate in the predator/prey process involved in mate selection. Which leads to generalizing and stereotyping of the prey on both ends. This is normal. It is also normal for the opposing teams to take offense at the other team. I don't personally particularly care too much for over indulgences in this area so as to objectify the prey so harshly as to lose any sort of emotional connection, empathy with them. Both men and women are guilty of such things. There are several billion people on the planet. Chances are if you have a gripe with one entire half of that huge population, the problem is within you, not with the several billion. Not to say you don't have a right to receive the proper amount of empathy for your situation, but it is largely up to you and your circumstances to rectify that position.

All that being said, for one person, coming to terms with circumstance and taking one's position into as much control as they can, they may come to value friendships, and forgo intimacy. On the other hand, some one may seek out a completely casual sexual encounter, and fulfill their needs that way. Both extremes, when done properly, are, in my opinion, healthy and beneficial ways of meeting one's needs.

Social intercourse is to the meme, while, sexual intercourse is to the gene. Each distinction, seperately, desires, I think, to multiply.
 
Ymir said:
That's funny, Pike, I'm the complete opposite. I can only ever look at a guy with romantic intentions if we are good friends first, or at least if we get along well enough that we could be good friends. That sexual spark idea is beyond me as well: if I grow fond of a guy I'll wind up finding him attractive even if I didn't previously.

^ This is me too.
 
Oh I know I'm different when it comes to dating! I think it has to do with the fact that I like being a loner, I've mentioned I have one "friend" and she lives 1000 miles away East so we only email once a week or so and it's fine with me. I was alone for so long and didn't have a good experience with friends, so I let them go, and for me, it was a good thing. So the only thing I sought was romance because my goal was a relationship with a man. I was flying a little blind from inexperience but I guess my method worked because we started off as lovers and are now inseparable best friends and lovers.

But you know, my method was different too. I chose internet dating. I was able to read profiles, get answers to questions, chat safely from home, weed out the ones I didn't think wanted more than just sex, then actually meet for a date to see if the guy was who he represented himself to be. This was how I met guys whose goals were the same as mine vis-a-vis a romantic long-term relationship. Of course over a year's time, I met a lot of men who were on all ends of the spectrum and I finally did meet someone compatible, but it took a lot of time and effort for me. And I'll be VERY honest here, affection, romance and sex are extremely important to me. I learned all about his hobbies, interests, work, family, personality etc...from his profile, from chatting and from talking for hours on the first few dates so I got the feeling he had good potential as a mate/companion, so I didn't need to spend a lot of time developing a friendship that I surmised would naturally progress during our dating. Maybe that's why I sought out the lust before the friendship because it was a question mark, would we be romantically and sexually compatible as well was my question.

I can see how getting to know someone first as friends makes more sense for some people. I just have a different way of doing things, I think as long as your method works, there's no knocking it. But I also think that if it isn't working, maybe to try something new isn't so bad either.
 

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