Nice guys

[LucieMay]

There's a lot said on this board about how "nice guys" fail with women... and that women chose the confident charismatic bad guys who break their hearts over and over. Well I was one of those women: over the years I've been involved with different variations of the bad guy: the funny confident charismatic flirtatious charmer (who also cheats), the complicated tortured seeingly "sensitive" artist who cannot find peace or fully commit and my baby's daddy who actually was a bone fide bad guy (don't wanna go into details). I've thought I could change them and understand them... that all they were waiting for was the "right" woman... and time and time again I've been let down and hurt. I'm actually very good friends with some of them (few of them are truly "bad"- many make excellent loyal friends but honeysuckle boyfriends).

Well my most recent boyfriend sapped the life out of me completely (I made a thread about it). I'm not gonna go into the fully gory story but I never thought I would love again- he completely destroyed my spirit and my shell and my trust.

I've always had trouble falling for the stereotypical "nice guy". In my every day life, I'm very independent and self sufficient and very strong willed. I like men who have precense and intrigue, who light up the room and get everyone's attention as soon as they walk in. Most of these men have not been conventionally handsome or great lookers. That has never interested me. I don't like shy men or those who let me walk all over them or are saps or are nervous around me or are desperate to be what I want them to be or who always let me make decisions or just do what I want all the time. I don't enjoy needy or clingy men. I can be pretty hard work and need someone who can keep me on my toes and stand up to me. Of course, all those sorts also messed me over and hurt me and let me down. In my early 20s, I was pretty flighty and flirty and never committed myself. I have hurt my fair share of guys in my time and done some things I am not proud of. But since getting older and having a child, I have wanted love, commitment, reliability, honesty, trust and fidelity.

I'm not after sympathy at all, I'm a fairly intelligent person and willingly entered into those liaisons.

But recently I got together with a man who blown all of my perceptions out of the water. I knew him many years ago and we became friends. He had a girlfriend at the time and there was never anything more between us and it was never on the agenda. We lost touch a few years ago but he recently got back in touch with me. He had split with his long term girlfriend (the one we had when I was together). We met up as friends and have since got together.

I have a lot of trust issues from my ex but having known my boyfriend as boyfriend to another woman and knowing how faithful and devoted he was, he is beginning to break down my walls (very slowly). He even admitted to me he was attracted to me at the time, but I would never have guessed it.

He is a typical nice guy: considerate, loyal, loving and faithful. He is very honest and straight up with his feelings and is very understanding. This was never enough for me before and I always wrongly associated these traits with a man being shy, a sap and a walk over and boring. He is none of these: he is very confident and funny with lots of friends. He is highly intelligent and I could listen to him talk for hours. He is very quick witted and very popular. I am also very attracted to him and we have a lot of sexual chemistry, which I never had with "nice guys" before. I always saw them as asexual to me.

He has completely blown my preconceptions out of the water. I admit that I was wrong. A man CAN be a thoroughly nice person but also be charismatic and sexually attractive (not about looks).

It is very early days but even if it doesn't go long term, I am so glad to have known him because he has shown me that you can be more than a stereotype.

Just wanted to share my story.

 

[Why_Me]

It takes a strong person to admit they've been wrong.
I am truly happy and envious (in a good way) that you've found love again.

Good slice of inspiration for some of us in "the fog".

 

[LucieMay]

Thanks. I hope it does give people a bit of inspiration because I have experienced an epic amount of loneliness and heart ache in my adult life. I know it's like to feel hopeless and empty. One thing that always sustained me was the minute little bit of hope of something more.

 

[sevenacids]

I think I have something to share here...

Well, I'm one of the "nice guys", and I totally agree with the things Lucie May wrote about. I've never been lucky with women as well, I had very few "affairs" in my life, but never had a girlfriend. And now, being almost 27 years old, it really begins to be seriously depressing. It's one of the reasons I feel so lonely, not to have someone to hold on. Not to get a chance ever, except for those "affairs", which were nothing more than like a few days or weeks, mostly sexual relationships, and I was only chosen because I was the one available...

It's really making me sad that women act like this, consciously or not. "Nice guys", especially when they are shy, are just ignored. Right now, it's hard for me to get in contact with women because I know all about this. I mean, I am shy - but not always. I'm helpful, understanding... I have all the aspects considered "nice" and I always thought women would like (now I know: yes, they do - if they are looking for a friend, not a partner). But women rather chose the "bad guys". I know where I stand, I would always protect the one I love - I don't need to be a bad guy for this, do I? And even "nice guys" can be good lovers, hello?

I was more watching than interacting with people for my entire life. And what I'm seeing is that: the bad guys get the girls, the nice guys get nothing.

 

[ShybutHi]

Too true sevenacids... I think I can safely say I am a "nice guy" aswell, honest, respectful, trustworthy, understanding... I try to see the best in things, have alot of varied interest's and like good conversation. When it comes to relationship's though it seems like I am simply not viewed as relationship material, just friend material and I think this is probably due to the fact I am quite a shy guy and not exactly the "best" looker out there.

I gave up a long time ago on the dating game or even believing that any woman would even be interested in me though. Having only one relationship in my life which was in my mid teens and was more of a fling really, also means I have no experience whatsoever, still a virgin too at 24.

From my point of view, looking at the world, people I know who are and have been in relationships and such, I would certainly say that the proper "nice guy's" are generally not viewed as good relationship material for the female gender.

It seems like a general misconception that bad boy's are more fun or perhaps that they will make better relationship material. I think this is wrong as it all depends on the person, afterall everyone is different.

 

[sevenacids]

I think the problem is also the kind of society that we live in: nice and shy are considered weak aspects - which even makes sense when you look at it from an evolutionary point of view: the female is always looking for the best partner (which is the alpha-male in the best case, the strongest member of the tribe), so I'm not sure if they make a conscious decision in rejecting the nice guys, or not.

That's also the point in the explanation why a woman can have sex whenever she wants - it's always the female's choice. A man simply can't do this, unless he's good looking and has these evil guy stereotypes (good looking alone is not the key), and knows how to play the game, of course.

Don't expect that humans act any different from animals. They always claim that they do, but it's simply not true. They could act different, if they wanted, they could even realize the damage they're causing to this planet, for example, if they would only use their intelligence. But that's not how it works.

Now, what's the solution for the nice guys?

Well, act like the evil guys, I think, but this is almost impossible for a shy person. You can't just go and change your personality, and why should you? You are what you are, and if that's not good enough for being a partner, then the woman's not worth it.

To be honest, I don't know the answer to the question.

It seems like a general misconception that bad boy's are more fun or perhaps that they will make better relationship material.

Certainly it is, so the question becomes: What can we do about this? The problem is that evil guys (I prefer to use the word "evil" over "bad" because it's the direct opposite of "nice") are quite successful in being fun and seen as better relationship material.

At the same time, the strange thing is that women always complain about the evil guys, but they fall for them again and again. I don't know about you, but hearing about this really makes me sick. They just don't know what they want. They're not able to chose between what is important and what is really important.

What are we going to do about it?


I know these words won't make it any better, but don't be too hard on you still being a virgin at the age of 24. I was a virgin until I was 23. So, I hope for the both of us (and all the others out there) that we get a chance to meet the one that is different, one of those that has no problem seeing a nice guy as a partner!

By the way, I like your nickname...

 

[LucieMay]

I disagree, looks are almost irrelevant to bad guys/evil guys (whatever you want to call them- I personally wouldn't call them evil as I reserve that for child killers etc. And most aren't even truly "bad"- everyone is a complex mix of flaws and strengths, as I myself have discovered and have tried to dispell the myth of the weak nice guy- my new guy is nice but is one of the strongest people I've ever met). My ex was not good looking conventionally, a lot of my female friends even found him very unattractive. It's all about their personality and the image they project. In fact, this often drives them more as they have to work much harder than men who are traditionally good looking.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

It is always nice to see females having revalations. It will be even funnier if this relationship does not work out and you fall right back to the same cycle.

 

[alonewanderer]

I am a wad of honeysuckle bad guy...you'll be back....they always come back.

 

[Spare]

It is always nice to see females having revalations. It will be even funnier if this relationship does not work out and you fall right back to the same cycle.

Wow. What a thing to say.

Whenever a thread such as this comes along, it always seems to devolve into a bunch of nice, shy guys venting their frustrations with the romantic choices women make. They complain about how they are never noticed by the opposite sex, never seen as "romantic material," and are consequently sequestered into the dreaded "friend-zone."

Sometimes, this is true. There are women who prefer the so-called alpha male over the average, nice, shy guy. Just like there are men (LOTS of men) who prefer the stereotypical model-like girl over the average, nice, shy girl (who, by the way, doesn't even make it to the friend-zone, because guys like this don't HAVE a friend-zone). But for the most part, at least as I see it, the whole thing is just one big misconception.

I'm a nice guy. I'm a shy guy. I used to look at various girls and their various boyfriends, and I would always think, "What does she POSSIBLY see in him!?!" I was always positive that I would make a much better boyfriend than him. It was so obvious! Why would a girl pick someone like him over someone like me? I was always nice, I was always courteous, I was always a gentleman. But girls never noticed me. What was wrong with them?

The answer to that question, basically, is nothing. Nothing is wrong with them. All of my niceness, all of my courtesy, all of my terrific qualities were never noticed because I NEVER ALLOWED THEM TO BE NOTICED. I allowed my shyness to force me to the background. I never gave anyone the chance to see what I might be able to bring to the romantic table. As a result, I spent twenty-eight long years being a nice guy who perpetually finished last. It had nothing to do with women passing me over because I was nice. I just wasn't running hard enough to win.

So to answer the question posed earlier in this thread, "What are we going to do about it?", I say, just run a little harder. Put yourself out there. Don't compromise yourself; there's nothing wrong with being a nice guy. Just don't hobble yourself.

I speak from experience. As I said before, I spent a long time alone. But once I recognized that the problem was rooted in me, not the entire female population, I was able to work on it. I was able to get a handle on my rampant shyness, to finally shrug off the awful weight that I had allowed to hold me down for so long. Now I'm in a wonderful relationship with a fantastic woman. She's smart, funny, caring, and beautiful. She's everything I've ever wanted, and so much more.

I'm happier now than I have ever been, and it's all because I'm a nice guy.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

Keep in mind friend I said if. Plus you also proved when she will replase back into the bad boys. You said yourself you let your shyness overrule those qualities. The vast majority of nice guys let this happen. So all the confidence and stuff she wants to see will be exuded by the bastards who will pump cheat and dump her.

 

[Ghost Boy]

From this nice guy, I'm glad you found a nice guy and prove the stereotype about nice guys being the weaker and less interesting male wrong.

 

[paulo]

being a nice guy doesnt meen your weak or shy.
being shy might make you a little more carefull around people i gues, make you seem nicer.

im not shy or weak , i just dont like to treat people badly.
i like being nice and considerate, its way more fun than hurting people and mistreating them.
some girls cant handle that, maybe they think they dont deserve it or something.
doesnt make me a pushover or boring.

i dont really look like a nice guy though, i seem to atract the girls looking for a *******
i just cant be like that and i dont want to.

 

[ShybutHi]

being a nice guy doesnt meen your weak or shy.
being shy might make you a little more carefull around people i gues, make you seem nicer.

im not shy or weak , i just dont like to treat people badly.
i like being nice and considerate, its way more fun than hurting people and mistreating them.
some girls cant handle that, maybe they think they dont deserve it or something.
doesnt make me a pushover or boring.

i dont really look like a nice guy though, i seem to atract the girls looking for a *******
i just cant be like that and i dont want to.

I think being nice does turn some girls off yes. Im shy and have been told im one of the nicest guys anyone could meet but that doesnt mean im a pushover or boring quite the contrary... infact I really enjoy good conversation about all sorts of subjects, have lots of interests, play the guitar in bands and transpose music and such and actually like a bit of debate too and like to put forth my opinion. Thing is im terrible in groups because of my shyness so I never put forth subjects to converse about, im usually in the background... only when its a one on one situation or with people i know really really well will I be able to break out of my shell a bit. Takes me a LONG time to get used to the presence of someone i dont really know. I think this means im never ever seen as potential relationship material.

 

[Undone]

congrats on bouncing back.

 

[DrFlashman]

Spare makes some really good points above. And all of you "nice guys" out there should read a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy," by Robert Glover. I've recommended it to many of my friends, even my father. Personally, it really helped me realize that a lot of my problems with women were due to my own patterns of behaviour and ways of seeing my life and my possibilities as a person.

I think the biggest problems come when you are down on yourself. One thing people (specifically women) respond to is confidence. Not cockiness, or arrogance, but just plain old confidence: that certain way of behaving that tells people that YOU VALUE YOURSELF. Because if you value yourself, others will automatically value you.

How do you achieve this? Well...I'm still working on it. But it starts by accepting yourself and admitting it's OKAY to be how ever you are. Then looking at areas you'd like to improve about yourself and setting realistic goals. I think people get too hung up on appealing to the opposite sex (or same sex, whatever your thing) and don't pay enough attention to whether or not they appeal to themselves, first.

I hope some of this makes sense. I'm 31, and have been through a LOT of anguishing times with women, and a lot of dark times as a person. And although I STILL don't have it figured out (I'm still single, after all). There are no shortcuts around pain and heartache in this life, so don't seek them out. But one thing I do know is: I'm a lot more happy with myself personally and my ability to attract women now than when I was 23, because of a lot of these things I've just written above.

 

[ShybutHi]

Good post DrFlashman I think you a definatly right there, a major key point is valuing yourself. I have changed my opinion on this subject a bit as of late because I used to think that the fact I was very shy was the main reason why I wouldnt get any attention from women and always felt that i was in the background but I dont believe this to be quite as true as I thought now. I mean you can still be confident and shy at the same time which is something that I think alot of people get mixed up on. You can be confident in yourself and your own opinions but not necessarily be good at social situations or atleast not someone who will voice their opinion to a group as much as a properly "confident" person.

Its all in the body language... that is what people will pick up on mostly. If your body language shows signs of someone who is quietly confident and that you value yourself, then I think people are more likely to sort of involve you in conversations and acknowledge you more as a participating party in the social group even if you dont really say that much. It basically take's you from the background into the foreground a little which in turn will hopefully help to overcome some shyness.

It sounds funny but recently I have actually been doing this purposefully... kind of like not giving a **** about what anyone thinks... going into public places with a much stronger and confident outward persona... im still a shy person ofcourse so I dont generally talk much anyway, or atleast initiate conversations with people easily, but i have noticed that more people that i dont know will actually talk to me directly, which is great and it helps alot where shyness is concerned.

 

[alonewanderer]

Even if you act cocky or arrogant it's better than being shy and invisible, sometimes it's better to be infamous rather than forgotten.

(of course this isn't always the best course of action and hopefully you can just use the excuse that you had 5 too many shots of liquor)

 

[edgeofchaos]

 

[sevenacids]

sometimes it's better to be infamous rather than forgotten

Nice line!