Spirituality and what does that mean?????

[Alive42]

I have just finished the "Seekers Guide" by Elizabeth Lessor. All it did for me was open a whole pandora's box. I don't know anything now - except I do not believe in organized religion and do not mean the people who attend, I just believe that the corruption and almighty dollar that seems to rule these organizations tells me I do not want to be a part of.

Would be interested in an open discussion on spirituality - God - A creator - Buddha etc etc.

 

[heretostay]

im very hung up on the concept of God, spirituality, etc. ive done a little bit of reading and it all just comes up inconclusive for me. Im kind of at a standpoint where i dont know if it really matters one way or another. but then i think it must matter because whenever i seek help, its often of a spiritual nature. ive always found i get more help from meditations and books that do not believe in god. so that tends to make me think that god does not exist. but i was raised in a very strict mormon family so i find myself thinking there is a god. so basically i just dont know.

 

[Alive42]

im very hung up on the concept of God, spirituality, etc. ive done a little bit of reading and it all just comes up inconclusive for me. Im kind of at a standpoint where i dont know if it really matters one way or another. but then i think it must matter because whenever i seek help, its often of a spiritual nature. ive always found i get more help from meditations and books that do not believe in god. so that tends to make me think that god does not exist. but i was raised in a very strict mormon family so i find myself thinking there is a god. so basically i just dont know.

I so hear you. I have read a lot and I do truly find comfort when I have an issue or fear that is out of my control I give it out to god or the universe or what ever comes to my mind at the time and I do feel better - so the question is do I have support or am i just releasing myself from the responsibility - I don't know. But I am re-reading this book, but taking the time to journal and study areas that raise thought, feelings or gut instinct this time around. I am also going to learn to meditate - just because I don't believe it canhurt anything.

 

[heretostay]

i often wonder if i have support or if its just some delusion. i have found the most comfort from meditation. i was raised to pray, but i cannot say i have ever found much comfort from trying that. but when i do some mediations i feel real tangible comfort. the mediations do come with a person telling one what to think so one is guided in the 'right' direction of thoughts to get comfort so i am sure that helps. one of the mediations i do that seems to help immensely is finding my spiritual guide. in this particular mediation i can envision my guide as anything i want. that is interesting to me. i also read a book called Seat of the Soul, which was so helpful. the author also talks about spiritual guides coming in any form.

ive also wondered if my relief is from some real tangible spiritual experience, or some fabrication in my own mind. but ive learned to let go of questions that have no answer and just be thankful when something seems to help, and go with it.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

I've been working the 12 step program for almost 17 years.
it's a living program or a spiritaul program.
The 12 steps originate from the oxford group. (christian base)
The founding AA member...BW..actaully had a hard time with orginized religion or the concept of god.
A simple suggestion was made to him...( a god of his understanding) in step #3.
The 12 steps program had been adapted to many other groups.

AA dosn't have the conner on the market on god or spirituality....but it's my back ground.

I had a hard time beliving in GOD or religion.
Juses never came to save me when my head was getting bashed in as a child.
I was raised in a christain church. i attended sunday school as a child.
I used to get down on my knees and pray everymorning and evenng....
That somehow god would keep my family together...I love my wife and child at the time
very, very much. We were having marrital problems...we we're a young couple.
Our deviorced devistated me. My belief at that time was that I committed the untilmate sin
by getting a deviorced. I took my marriagetal vow as a commitment to god and to my wife.
I thought i was going to burn in hell..no matter what I did after that. I thought my life was
piontless..I even tried to committ suicide there after. I was brought back to life...I hated
everyone for bring me back to life. I then started drinking and partying heavily...
I had to stay bascailly numb out of my fucken mind....chased wild woman...did crazy stuff..
Living was piontless to me...I was bascailly trying to committ suicide the slow way.
Nothing...absolutley nothing releaved me of my pains...i felt it every moment I was sober.
All i wanted was to be with my wife and child...No amount of money, sex, drugs, alcohol I
put into my system cured me of that pain. On the outside I looked just like any normal person.
A lof of my freinds actaully thought I had my honeysuckle togehter just becuase I had a good paying job.
Inside...I felt like dying every moment. Looking good on the outside, all messed up on the inside.
Everything breath i took felt like knives cutting into me.

Recovery had been a journey from me...from the moment i walk out of the hospital bed.
I understand a lot of the spiritual principles and practices through out the years in recovery.
I've read plenty of spiritaul books...from The course of mirracles..to the power of the NOW and the Bible.

Today...I still struggle very,very hard...Actaully alot harder than I did when I was first introduced
to AA and the 12 steps or spiritaul principles...
Jenni's death had really devistated me...
I havn't had to drink or used over it...but her passing kind of messed me up in ways I don't really know
how to process.. I don't really beliving in GOD or a HP anymore
I've been reading and writting ..bascailly trying to work my steps again...
It's not clicking for me....i just can't belive anymore...
Yes...all of the questions i have that can't be answered. If i thinks or ask to **** much.
I'll fucken go fucken really, really crazy.
The more I know...The less I want to fucken know.
I don't want to know anymore...I don't want anymore fucken lessons or fucken enlightenment.

The closest I can do today is....Good Orderly Directions....from my sponsor.
Which I don't do or want to do....

Yes..meditations helps me....not so much to float on air or getting in touch with GOD.
Help slows down or stops my fucken mind.
It's too god **** much to for me to ask for. To just love someone and have them ove me back.
I can't even wrap myself around this simple question today.

WHY ? becuase i'm fucken hurt...my spirit is low ATM

 

[wolfshadow]

Spritual concepts leave me very cold. When I was small, I considered the question of why people are predesposed towards investing their faith so completely in a god, or unproven planes of thought and existence. The only answer I have ever has is this, because we evolved as pack animals, nature programmed the majority not only to fear the leader of the tribe, but also to reguard him as a figure of reverence. Possibly as a safeguard against the individual drive for acquisition threatening the order of the pack. I believe religion to be a modern expression of this instinct.

None of the above though, means that I discount the possiblity of being wrong.

 

[heretostay]

The only answer I have ever has is this, because we evolved as pack animals, nature programmed the majority not only to fear the leader of the tribe, but also to reguard him as a figure of reverence. Possibly as a safeguard against the individual drive for acquisition threatening the order of the pack. I believe religion to be a modern expression of this instinct.

ya i took a class on different perspectives on the origin of god and this was one of them. its a biological evolutionary perspective. also, freud went along these same lines.

 

[Alive42]

i often wonder if i have support or if its just some delusion. i have found the most comfort from meditation. i was raised to pray, but i cannot say i have ever found much comfort from trying that. but when i do some mediations i feel real tangible comfort. the mediations do come with a person telling one what to think so one is guided in the 'right' direction of thoughts to get comfort so i am sure that helps. one of the mediations i do that seems to help immensely is finding my spiritual guide. in this particular mediation i can envision my guide as anything i want. that is interesting to me. i also read a book called Seat of the Soul, which was so helpful. the author also talks about spiritual guides coming in any form.

ive also wondered if my relief is from some real tangible spiritual experience, or some fabrication in my own mind. but ive learned to let go of questions that have no answer and just be thankful when something seems to help, and go with it.

I read Seat of the Soul also, but it's been a few years ago - I need to refresh.

Do you ever wonder why we strive for relief - most days I can let the questions go that have no answer, but there are days I wonder "WHY THE HELL I AM HERE". It seems like a waste to rattle around doing all these mundane things (even climbing mnt everest) waiting to die - I hope you can understand what I am trying to stay. I am not suicidel. This just seems odd to be a being put here with no directions - isthere a god/creator or are we the TV to soemthing bigger with a wierd sense of humor. I don't know - I am babbling again, but sometimes these bigger questions drive me

 

[rdos4]

i am religious and go through tough times when im lonely by praying to God...

 

[Needles]

I take the position of Einstein. I just recently read this and until now I have had a hard time phrasing my views on religion without writing paragraphs.

People always seems to say that you need to have some type of religious involvement to have proper morals. Really? Because from what I've seen, people rape children regardless of their faith or lack thereof. People fight other people regardless of their faith or lack thereof. People murder, steal, lie, etc. regardless of their faith or lack thereof. I don't see why it is necessary for people to belong to a religious organization to know what the difference between right and wrong is. My parents did not raise me with any religious preference. I was free to believe what I wanted with no external influence aside from those mega-church preachers on the infomercials who seem to knock people down and instantly cure their cancer. Needles to say, I found that ridiculous since I realized someone could give me $20 dollars and I would sign a paper that said you could cut my balls off if I told anyone it was fake and you better believe I wouldn't say anything. Hell, the guy could push me over with his fist for a cheeseburger and I wouldn't say it was fake to anyone.

Also, I think a lot of people find some kind of comfort or hope in their religion since most people don't take their lives into their own hands; expecting that God will give you this, God will give you that, really? Why is everything not perfect then? God helps those who help themselves, right? Do you need God's help if you have already helped yourself? When you go to a job interview you don't prepare half-way and then expect God to fill in the rest. It's hard to give an example of this, really, but I think most of you should understand what I mean by that. If you want something you go out and get it, you don't wait for it to be handed to you if you put in little to no effort.

Also, I think the fear of the unknown is quite prevalent in the minds of religious followers. I for one am terrified of death. However, I don't let it rule my life. Assuming there is a God and a heaven...wouldn't God be satisfied and let me in as long as I've led a good life, was kind to people, and didn't do anything outrageous like kill someone? I certainly think so. I think God is smart enough, assuming he is this perfect, benevolent being to realize the difference between a good and bad person. What kind of benevolent, all-knowing being will send you to hell just because you didn't worship him weekly/daily? If he is like that then I don't want to believe in him. Who would sentence you to an eternity in a fiery hell if you led a good life but did not pray? Not a God you should believe in, that's who.

I choose to life my life how I want and hope my decisions in life reflect who I am if there comes a time when I am standing in front of the gates of heaven, not the amount of praying I do.

I have more, but I will spare you Please don't take any offense to what I have said. I fully believe everyone has a right to believe in whatever/whoever they would like. This is my opinion and I would never attempt to force it on anyone else.

 

[Unacceptance]

I don't believe in anything. Facts over faith.

 

[heretostay]

I don't believe in anything. Facts over faith.

Well certainly you believe in something. even believing in nothing is believing in something.

 

[Unacceptance]

I don't believe in anything. Facts over faith.

Well certainly you believe in something. even believing in nothing is believing in something.

I have principles and scruples and whatnot, but I don't actually trust in anything that is dogmatic. As in, I don't actually have things I necessarily "believe" in, I'd rather know or logically reason out my world vi than just put blind assumptions as a way to live my life.

 

[heretostay]

I read Seat of the Soul also, but it's been a few years ago - I need to refresh.

Do you ever wonder why we strive for relief - most days I can let the questions go that have no answer, but there are days I wonder "WHY THE HELL I AM HERE". It seems like a waste to rattle around doing all these mundane things (even climbing mnt everest) waiting to die - I hope you can understand what I am trying to stay. I am not suicidel. This just seems odd to be a being put here with no directions - isthere a god/creator or are we the TV to soemthing bigger with a wierd sense of humor. I don't know - I am babbling again, but sometimes these bigger questions drive me

Oh yes i know exactly what you mean. I used to think about this ALL the time. it drove me nuts. And then one day i realized i was miserable and that it didnt matter. what matter was that i wasnt going to kill myself and i didnt want to be miserable. so i stopped thinking about things that made me miserable and started applying myself to things that helped.

The catch is the cosmic irony of my effort. I read the best quote about the cosmic irony of life, though. it was in my film appreciation book:

"Irony pictures every situation as possessing two equal sides, or truths, that cancel each other out or at least work against each other, the overall effect of ironic expression is to show the ridiculous complexity and uncertainty of human experience. Life is seen as a continuous series of paradoxes and contradictions, characterized by ambiguities and discrepancies, and no truth is ever absolute. Such irony implies that life is a game in which the players are aware of the impossibility of winning and the absurdity of the game even while they continue to play. Although irony usually has a humorous effect, the humor of cosmic irony bites deep. it can bring a laugh but not of the usual kind. it will be not a belly laugh but a sudden outward gasp of air, almost a cough, that catches in the throat between the heart and mind. we laugh perhaps because it hurts too much to cry."​

I love the part where the author describes life as an absurd game. that's exactly what i feel like. I mean really, who would want a game that had a zillion rules, a zillion pieces, but didnt clarify which rules were the 'right' ones, had no defined path, and the end of the game was you DYING. No reward, no million bucks. you suffer, work your ass off, maybe have some joy sprinkled here and there, and maybe, just maybe when you start to get it, you die. who would want to play??? but we do play. how absurd. the catch is, you only have two choices, play the game or die. and if you decide to play you dont want to be miserable so you have to try. its ludicrous.

 

[PieBeNice]

I want to do physics at university, kind of doesn't mix with fairy tales. Spiritualism ftl.

 

[heretostay]

I don't believe in anything. Facts over faith.

Well certainly you believe in something. even believing in nothing is believing in something.

I have principles and scruples and whatnot, but I don't actually trust in anything that is dogmatic. As in, I don't actually have things I necessarily "believe" in, I'd rather know or logically reason out my world vi than just put blind assumptions as a way to live my life.

Then logic and knowing is what you believe in. But what you have to ask yourself is who's logic and knowing are you believing in? There are just things in this world. Any truth, or fact, assigned to a thing requires a belief, or faith, first in whomever is assigning the dogma to the thing. Objects do not reveal truth, people assign truth to things first through their predisposed believes, or faith, in a certain system. So who's believes do you believe in?

If you believe in logic and knowledge, its people you believe in. Do you know who you believe in? There are observations made by people who assign believes to the observed. If you believe in facts, you believe in what people think about objects.

Believing always predisposes a so-called fact. Faith is discredited through religious nuts, but it is really a signature type of knowledge that if one is not aware of, then one is lead blindly to follow 'facts' that are simply another's beliefs. And when you dont know who you're following, that's when you are following with blind faith.

 

[heretostay]

I want to do physics at university, kind of doesn't mix with fairy tales. Spiritualism ftl.

then you dont know anything about physics. im in physics. ever heard of the quantum enigma?

 

[PieBeNice]

No i haven't please tell.

 

[heretostay]

No i haven't please tell.

Its a book actually. Called "Quatum Engima." check it out if you want. the elementary parts of physics are very basic, factual and whatnot. but once you get into quantum physics you get into very, very weird phenomena. its anything but scientific. you can research it online if you want.

math is the same way. sure when you are a beginner they teach you just the 'facts' but its all theory. math seems factual but its anything but.

 

[wolfshadow]

It amazes me how complex people can be once they've been educated, it all makes me feel positively neanderthal.:shy: