A “weak” man

[CenotaphGirl]

So this is actually from a man in my life wondering something… can anyone help me help him out my advice just doesn't seem to work…

What should a man do if he finds himself fast approaching 29 with the same issues when he was 18.

He cant say “no” to any request no matter how much he doesn't want to do it. He is easily manipulated and cant see through the tricks. He likes to be liked and will bend over backwards to have “friends”…

Is there a way to stop being so weak? His childhood plays a massive part, raised in foster care.

He described himself as a weak and that shocked me the most. I have never known a man to “admit” something like that.

 

[ardour]

Pop psychology time: He didn't get enough validation as a child/adolescent. People compensate in a variety of ways: people pleaser, workaholic, 'devoted son', ahem.. male feminist... ahem. He should try to find a reliable group of male friends - and by that I don't mean the bros who compete and insult each other all the time to prove their masculinity. He'll then be more stable emotionally and better able to stop approval seeking behaviour with others. Also, standing up for yourself, like anything, takes practice.

But all easier said than done.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Pop psychology time: He didn't get enough validation as a child/adolescent. People compensate in a variety of ways: people pleaser, workaholic, 'devoted son', ahem.. male feminist... ahem. He should try to find reliable group of male friends - and by that I don't mean the bros who compete and insult each other all the time to prove their masculinity. He'll be more stable emotionally and better able to stop approval seeking behaviour with others. Also, standing up for yourself, like anything, takes practice.

But alll easier said than done.

Its so weird he is a people pleasing workaholic

He cant seem to have friends and I gave him a slap of reality… I said “its because you’re fake” and that hurt his feelings but I thought that tough love should be good for a man idk

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

*long post incoming*

I used to be like that guy, actually.
All men start that way, is the thing.
We start that way because we're raised that way as kids.
So just as women are raised as kids to expect Prince Charming to just show up and already have everything responsibility-wise covered, men are raised as kids to expect that if you do enough things for a woman and provide enough it will keep her happy and satisfied in the relationship.

And where both men and women fresia up with it is:
That's just not realistic expectations on either side of it.
You're never going to meet a man who has an abundance of security that also doesn't have an abundance of options for women. If he has what women want, than yes, more women are going to want him.

And for men, it doesn't matter what you do or what you provide for a woman, she doesn't want logical consistency, she wants emotional consistency, without really realizing why the two words "emotional" and "consistency" mix about as well as oil and water. The fact of the matter is, she has to mix oil and water enough times herself in order to figure out for herself why it doesn't work. So as a man, you have to relinquish that control a bit in order to teach them. And yeah, basically they're going to be pissed off every time they find out oil and water don't mix until they eventually learn for themselves WHY it doesn't mix. You have to give them the tools, and back away. Either they will figure it out, or they'll come to you for help. And if you want them to come to you for help in finality of it, than you really can't be an egotistical jerk about the entire approach to the conflict.

Humans are products of their environment.
In the great "nature versus nurture debate," we often forget that as a species we have entirely removed ourselves from our natural element among nature itself.
Processed food, manmade lakes and canals, satellites and the internet, vaccinations and modern medical advancements, none of this is organic, it's technologically developmental.
This is partially why and how diseases have spread in our historical past during times of migration from continent to continent and land to land across the span of time.

The only way people grow out of these childlike innocence of perceptions that we have is to unfortunately have it brutally beaten out of us. That's just life. That's life across the board, actually. It's shitty, it's painful, it's an absolute travesty and a complete and total atrocity, but that is in fact this thing that we call Life that for some reason we cherish and value so much without truly being able to understand the meanings thereof. Life is voracious. It just is. I have been saying Life is voracious for 12+ years, that it can and will break anyone and everyone, and I've yet to see it NOT break anyone and everyone in some matter or another.

The make or break or survivability is entirely up to an individuals mental fortitude for endurance.
People have their party years when they're younger and then struggle to adapt as they get older.
A whole bunch of human emotions happen in a 20 year span between the ages of 15 and 35, the Panic Button gets slammed so many times the word "PANIC!" on it gets rubbed off from human touch.

Survivability demands inevitable forced cognitive override of emotional reasoning.
In any combat situation, if you're trying to survive, you're not trying to "feel your way" out of it, you're trying to think your way out of it.
And the make or break for survivability, is entirely dependent upon rather or not a person has learned how to do this, and to what extent they have learned to do this.
The easiest way to do that is to just exploit the trajectory of your assailants movements. If they're moving on instinct, you can lead them astray, if they're moving on cognitive patterns, you can learn the pattern. It's all in a matter of how quickly you can pick up what they're putting down, and how quickly you can adjust accordingly.
Because in truth, if there was no time to look before we leap, none of us would be alive today and humans wouldn't have survived that far. At least with this skillset, there's adaptive survivalism, as well as adaptive hunting if you're more of the pursuing type.

It's not in WHEN someone breaks, it's in HOW someone breaks, is the thing.
Finite and Infinite Games theory.
Again, I don't like it, but that is what it is.

What's the difference between the incel community and the oligarchy?
The oligarchy has more legal power. That's why they're the oligarchy in the first place.
If you take the guns away from the incels, and the money and legal power away from the oligarchy:
You're looking at the exact same type of people.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

*long post incoming*

I used to be like that guy, actually.
All men start that way, is the thing.
We start that way because we're raised that way as kids.
So just as women are raised as kids to expect Prince Charming to just show up and already have everything responsibility-wise covered, men are raised as kids to expect that if you do enough things for a woman and provide enough it will keep her happy and satisfied in the relationship.

And where both men and women fresia up with it is:
That's just not realistic expectations on either side of it.
You're never going to meet a man who has an abundance of security that also doesn't have an abundance of options for women. If he has what women want, than yes, more women are going to want him.

And for men, it doesn't matter what you do or what you provide for a woman, she doesn't want logical consistency, she wants emotional consistency, without really realizing why the two words "emotional" and "consistency" mix about as well as oil and water. The fact of the matter is, she has to mix oil and water enough times herself in order to figure out for herself why it doesn't work. So as a man, you have to relinquish that control a bit in order to teach them. And yeah, basically they're going to be pissed off every time they find out oil and water don't mix until they eventually learn for themselves WHY it doesn't mix. You have to give them the tools, and back away. Either they will figure it out, or they'll come to you for help. And if you want them to come to you for help in finality of it, than you really can't be an egotistical jerk about the entire approach to the conflict.

Humans are products of their environment.
In the great "nature versus nurture debate," we often forget that as a species we have entirely removed ourselves from our natural element among nature itself.
Processed food, manmade lakes and canals, satellites and the internet, vaccinations and modern medical advancements, none of this is organic, it's technologically developmental.
This is partially why and how diseases have spread in our historical past during times of migration from continent to continent and land to land across the span of time.

The only way people grow out of these childlike innocence of perceptions that we have is to unfortunately have it brutally beaten out of us. That's just life. That's life across the board, actually. It's shitty, it's painful, it's an absolute travesty and a complete and total atrocity, but that is in fact this thing that we call Life that for some reason we cherish and value so much without truly being able to understand the meanings thereof. Life is voracious. It just is. I have been saying Life is voracious for 12+ years, that it can and will break anyone and everyone, and I've yet to see it NOT break anyone and everyone in some matter or another.

The make or break or survivability is entirely up to an individuals mental fortitude for endurance.
People have their party years when they're younger and then struggle to adapt as they get older.
A whole bunch of human emotions happen in a 20 year span between the ages of 15 and 35, the Panic Button gets slammed so many times the word "PANIC!" on it gets rubbed off from human touch.

Survivability demands inevitable forced cognitive override of emotional reasoning.
In any combat situation, if you're trying to survive, you're not trying to "feel your way" out of it, you're trying to think your way out of it.
And the make or break for survivability, is entirely dependent upon rather or not a person has learned how to do this, and to what extent they have learned to do this.
The easiest way to do that is to just exploit the trajectory of your assailants movements. If they're moving on instinct, you can lead them astray, if they're moving on cognitive patterns, you can learn the pattern. It's all in a matter of how quickly you can pick up what they're putting down, and how quickly you can adjust accordingly.
Because in truth, if there was no time to look before we leap, none of us would be alive today and humans wouldn't have survived that far. At least with this skillset, there's adaptive survivalism, as well as adaptive hunting if you're more of the pursuing type.

It's not in WHEN someone breaks, it's in HOW someone breaks, is the thing.
Finite and Infinite Games theory.
Again, I don't like it, but that is what it is.

What's the difference between the incel community and the oligarchy?
The oligarchy has more legal power. That's why they're the oligarchy in the first place.
If you take the guns away from the incels, and the money and legal power away from the oligarchy:
You're looking at the exact same type of people.

Interesting points, my opinion is this.... genuinely an elite mindset has been shared throughout communities that are not able to compete on an elite level. This makes the idea of a man providing everything to a women seem so unattainable. When I talk to working class people they tell me stories of their ex partners taking back their televisions, friends in my circles even myself in all honesty still have ex's that pay our bills despite being an ex. But the truth is, it is unattainable for a lot of the people who want to do it from certain classes (mainly because its harder to meet people from different classes). It was once a average expectation that has turned into an elite expectation due to technology and feminism.


So the issue is, we now look at our stereotypical roles as being nice when it was never looked at in that way before. Providing and protecting is not a man being nice, providing and protecting is his literal duty. If he wants offspring for example, he will need to provide and protect whilst a woman has the task of pregnancy. Giving a man a child, cooking and cleaning for him, even sleeping with him is not a woman being nice, that is her duty. (was the previous mindset) that I ultimately agree with personally but doesn't make it right for everyone).

I think if you see everything you do as being nice, optional and transactional, I don't see how relationships will ever work, as I couldn't be in something like that from either side. It's as crazy to me as expecting my daughter to earn the food she eats from me lol I have a duty to feed her. Simpler mindset. (not you apexie but you know in general terms)

This man however, is nicer to everyone but himself, he allows people to use him in a way which is crazy.

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

Interesting points, my opinion is this.... genuinely an elite mindset has been shared throughout communities that are not able to compete on an elite level. This makes the idea of a man providing everything to a women seem so unattainable. When I talk to working class people they tell me stories of their ex partners taking back their televisions, friends in my circles even myself in all honesty still have ex's that pay our bills despite being an ex. But the truth is, it is unattainable for a lot of the people who want to do it from certain classes (mainly because its harder to meet people from different classes). It was once a average expectation that has turned into an elite expectation due to technology and feminism.


So the issue is, we now look at our stereotypical roles as being nice when it was never looked at in that way before. Providing and protecting is not a man being nice, providing and protecting is his literal duty. If he wants offspring for example, he will need to provide and protect whilst a woman has the task of pregnancy. Giving a man a child, cooking and cleaning for him, even sleeping with him is not a woman being nice, that is her duty. (was the previous mindset) that I ultimately agree with personally but doesn't make it right for everyone).

I think if you see everything you do as being nice, optional and transactional, I don't see how relationships will ever work, as I couldn't be in something like that from either side. It's as crazy to me as expecting my daughter to earn the food she eats from me lol I have a duty to feed her. Simpler mindset. (not you apexie but you know in general terms)

This man however, is nicer to everyone but himself, he allows people to use him in a way which is crazy.

Trouble is, we've got 8,000,000,000 People on the Earth.
Really think about how many people that is for a minute.
If you're just 1 person with your own thoughts and feelings, writing that as a fraction is 1/7,999,999,999 People.
What that means is, individual concerns have been resolved through multiplicity. And so now instead, we have concerns regarding multiplicity instead of concerns regarding individualism.

The bigger the opening at the top of the flower pot, the bigger the water drainage hole at the bottom of the flower pot.

Mark Manson said in The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A fresia that the solution to one problem is merely the replacement of that problem with another problem. This is exactly what has happened.

So the solution to multiplicity, therein folds backward and again becomes individualism. I mean in that regard, there's really only two options: With or without?

8,000,000,000 People on the planet.
Something like between 1,000 and 4,000 Satellites in Space.
Modern medical advancements, basically we have resolved our problem of potential extinction as best as we possibly can as a species, save for some freak accident like 99942 Apophis hitting us (a big asteroid), or some other natural disaster we can't do anything about.

Effectively, we've resolved our potential extinction problem, by replacing it with this containment or cage of a social construct wherein we are, in fact the new biggest potential extinction problem.

We're safe from most other things, but the most likely cause of our extinction now, will be ourselves. We've replaced one problem, with another problem.

I'm just the guy, coming back down from the mountaintop that everyone else is trying to go up to, waving my arms like a madman saying:
"Nope! Wrong mountaintop! Everybody turn back! "


That's the paradox of it though, right?
People have to see why it's the wrong mountaintop for themselves, before they're willing to agree that it's the wrong mountaintop.

So rather than make an emotional investment into it, I just don't.
I can't. You can't save everybody. It's a very hard lesson in life to learn.

 

[Unsigned]

View attachment 7585
So this is actually from a man in my life wondering something… can anyone help me help him out my advice just doesn't seem to work…

What should a man do if he finds himself fast approaching 29 with the same issues when he was 18.

He cant say “no” to any request no matter how much he doesn't want to do it. He is easily manipulated and cant see through the tricks. He likes to be liked and will bend over backwards to have “friends”…

Is there a way to stop being so weak? His childhood plays a massive part, raised in foster care.

He described himself as a weak and that shocked me the most. I have never known a man to “admit” something like that.

Sounds like the movie "Yes Man".
It worked out well for the title character.
Maybe your friend should embrace it?

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Sounds like the movie "Yes Man".
It worked out well for the title character.
Maybe your friend should embrace it?



View attachment 7590

It really hurts him, I had to give him petrol money because he had given almost all his money away. I think he deserves so much better but i’ll watch the filmm

 

[Unsigned]

It really hurts him, I had to give him petrol money because he had given almost all his money away. I think he deserves so much better but i’ll watch the filmm

He gives his money away to the point that his wallet is empty???
That's really bad.
He needs intensive therapy then -- the movie will not help...

 

[CenotaphGirl]

He gives his money away to the point that his wallet is empty???
That's really bad.
He needs intensive therapy then -- the movie will not help...

Literally, sometimes he desperately needs food and like comes over for dinner its beyond a joke but when I suggest therapy he says hes has loads and it dont help

 

[Unsigned]

Literally, sometimes he desperately needs food and like comes over for dinner its beyond a joke but when I suggest therapy he says hes has loads and it dont help

Then he needs to go to a boot camp type of program. For months.

 

[user 190648]

Sad to hear it is so severe with the guy, this problem. I myself only know 1 person who had it, yet in a far lighter form -- me.

My variant was to allow people to take too much of my time, w/o I myself to enjoy this. Going where I don't like to go. Talking things which I don't feel interest in. It wasn't 100% passive, you know -- I felt myself of use and creativity, in these things, but what's the point here is that there wasn't else pleasure to me in it but seeing that I'm of good, creative use, to the other party.

Further, I can say that -- for instance -- I have agreed to go out with guys who I had no interest in, at all. I did it, so to "not immediately offend them by a refusal". A stupid reason, I'm the 1st to admit it, but still, this was how I acted at the moment.

I haven't given away my money, for the simple reason that I didn't have much of it, and, what I had, had to be brought home.

I'm giving the details just so to show the similarities/differences with this guys situation.

I had friends at that time -- and they were good, actual friends, but their existence didn't helped me. I will tell you the only solution that worked for me: time and misuse of my good attitude. It is the same that works for everyone's maturity, yes, but still, this was that worked. I'm not egoistic currently, I strive to be creative and true; it is not that I have changed in this. But I'm ok with refusing this, that, or the third, when I feel not... on the same wave, or tired, or whatever else.

If it was about a kid, the easy (maybe) way would be to keep an eye on who he has in his company/friends. But, to do it for a grown person, is, as we all know, bad. If money aren't a problem, and if there is an option, what about changing the environment? And, changing somewhere where he, possibly, can do a job which he likes, which he feels matching and satisfying? Bc, thinking of it, a job that you feel really matching at, also fills up your need to be "useful, there, good". These are the 3 things that mostly suffer, in cases like mine and of the guy.

Best wishes!!!

 

[user 190648]

I'm just the guy, coming back down from the mountaintop that everyone else is trying to go up to, waving my arms like a madman saying:
"Nope! Wrong mountaintop! Everybody turn back! "

I'm sorry, I'm not belittling it, just, you have said it well.

 

[user 190648]

Sounds like the movie "Yes Man".
It worked out well for the title character.
Maybe your friend should embrace it?



View attachment 7590

Ok, I have a distraction ready for today. Thank you!! Haven't knew about it.

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

I'm sorry, I'm not belittling it, just, you have said it well.

It was meant to be somewhat satirical.
I mean, life is both tragedy and satire.