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Soup

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Supposedly the pet of the lonely.
I idolise cats in a way, such creatures of beauty and most of all.. freedom..
Strutting around like they just don't care, wandering any grounds they can find for food, fun and pleasure, then after a long day/nights hunting they can lay in the sun or come home to their loving owners who will feed them and stroke them, they can then curl up in a ball and go to sleep. A cats life is beautiful in my eyes.. we are supposedly all 'free' people, but I don't see it. We have our liberty, true.. but most of us are confined to social conventions; restricted by the needs of our society.. so obsessed with being popular, rich, in love... but losing track of what I feel is truly important.. freedom. Something a cat never loses track of, when a cat feels trapped it will look for freedom, it will claw at any dim light at the end of the tunnel.. when a human feels trapped they adapt to the situation, which is great.. but what can we achieve if we're not free? If we're trapped by some sort of anxiety, by restrictions of social norms.. but the feeling of loneliness we can never reach our full potential as free beings.
 
That's a very interesting look at cats, Soup. My 10 year old cat is truly a representation of what you have said. It gets what it wants by any means necessary. Even if that means screaming at the top of it's lungs in the middle of the night, waking me up and then casually striding by after I have given it food, unaware of any commotion that it might have caused. Pure self interest of those creatures is a high contrast to the hypocrisy that some people engage in order to hide the same self interest by altruistic means. I know, this is kinda cynical. Not all people are like that, but there are certainly enough of those slimy bastards. I hold more respect for the cat rather than a hypocritical snake (sorry, my understanding of the snake as a cunning animal comes from Harry Potter books :D)

However we as people are more free in a sense that we can to some extent decide what to strive for. Cats know only food, sleep, some occasional fun with some toy or a piece of paper and lying in the sun. We can, at least in principle, decide what to dedicate our life to. Be it those shallow things: popularity, money; or more respectable ones: knowledge, supporting others, love. Our freedom also manifests itself into our capability of understanding our motives, drives. People are able to look upon themselves, as cats do not. We can question certain things, just like you did with all those social norms and the problems of freedom. Cats can do no such thing.

So as there is the easier option of adapting and going with the flow, we still have the option to be free and pursue whatever we feel as most important aspect of our lives. And a certain type of loneliness provides us with an immunity to some of these social norms. If we have almost no people to care for us, why not we devote our lives to our freedom? To becoming what we actually want to become. To ignoring the absurd expectations of others and having a clear justification for that: what they have done for us that would give them the right to expect anything from us? If we are alone that means not only lack of support, but also a lack of responsibility to fit into norms which benefit others and not us.

I feel as if I'm starting to lose the main idea, I'll try to get back. I want to say that cats are instinctual and they don't question what they want. We are more conscious, rational and analytical: we can question, weigh and decide between what to choose. And no amount of social conventions and constrains will deprive us of that freedom of choice. It is just crucial to distinguish between the needs of society and needs of ourselves. Some social needs really need to be obliged, because it benefits both parties. And some individual needs need to be hampered by law because they pose danger to everyone (say I wanted to get rid of some person. Now that would not be ethical, would it?) But there are nonsensical social norms, which we NEED to ignore for the sake of our freedom. Take, for example, the subtle expectation of our parents regarding our career choice. They often try to steer the path of their child to a position where they can brag to others about their successful child, even if he is miserable in that career. And lots of people, including myself, fall prey to that 'common sense' which often prevents them from thinking, acting in a certain way. Or that ruthless standard of the 'norm': if you watch that, you are a geek; if you do that, you are weird. And us being social creatures, we wrongfully abide to these nonsenses.

So if we can even in our thoughts question these widely approved norms and conventions, it already shows a freedom present in us. What is lacking is only action. Our freedom of thought and deciding can turn into a true freedom, only if we have the guts to do that.

All in all, cats really have it good. They get to know their lives' pleasures, if they live with good people. But they don't realize why they do what they do. And therefore they are not free from themselves. We, however, can analyze our actions, beliefs, behaviour and everything that makes us 'us'. So we are free to shape ourselves.

Sorry for the ramble, but I really liked your post. It evoked, as you can see, a great deal of thoughts.

 
I love my kitty. Sorry, I've had hardly any sleep and a 3hour philosophy exam today, so I won't go into great detail, but he's called Rigsby and he's 4 and he comes and gives me big kisses in the morning and always gets of the bed if he has to itch his ear and gets back on.

It's totally crazy, but he actually has a "miaow" for me. And when I go away to uni he goes into my room and looks for me.

:'(

I miss him. All I have here is my housemates.
 
Haha. Yes, I have two cats... I love them :)
3 hour philosophy exam! ;o
How do you think you did? :>
 
I think it went okay, was hard tho. (Giggity)

What're your cats" names?
 
PurpleDays said:
I think it went okay, was hard tho. (Giggity)

What're your cats" names?

That's what she said ;)
I call my ginger cat ginger and my black cat blacky. Original, I know :club:
 
I think we trade what you describe cats having to be sentient. Cats are not aware of themselves. They are aware enough to survive. However, a cat does not have much awareness beyond that.

However, I still love my kitty to death. And she loves me.... If I did not have her... Well who knows where I would be.

@PurpleDays: Your kitty sounds like my first kitty. I would go away and she would look for me and get depressed. Then I would come home and she would give me the stink eye for 30 minutes as punishment for vanishing. Then she come give me love. >.>. She was so cute.
 
AFrozenSoul said:
I think we trade what you describe cats having to be sentient. Cats are not aware of themselves. They are aware enough to survive. However, a cat does not have much awareness beyond that.

However, I still love my kitty to death. And she loves me.... If I did not have her... Well who knows where I would be.

@PurpleDays: Your kitty sounds like my first kitty. I would go away and she would look for me and get depressed. Then I would come home and she would give me the stink eye for 30 minutes as punishment for vanishing. Then she come give me love. >.>. She was so cute.
Cats are sentient beings.

I was sat daydreaming today and I was thinking about us having the freedom to shape ourselves, I found that to not be true. We're shaped by our environment, society, genetics... Being free to shape ourself is an illusion many of us fall for. Sure, we have the choice to do things.. but those choices are influenced by our environment and genetics to some degree.
 
Hey Soup, I hope you won't mind if I share some more thoughts on our freedom. And I'm sorry that I can't express myself well in a short post. :)

You said we don't have the freedom to shape ourselves, and you appealed to the influence which is brought on us by our environment, society, genetics. And you claim that freedom is an illusion and that our choices from which we choose, are already chosen and presented to us without the ability to choose the other choices.

First, I want to point out the actual freedom about I'm talking about. When you say freedom, I get the impression that you think of it as an absolute freedom, and therefore reasonably conclude that there is no such thing. Really, I agree. I can't do everything, my environment doesn't permit it. There are some physical boundaries to freedom - for example I can't run my hand through the table without breaking it or damaging my arm. Physics don't allow that. Also if I wanted to fly without any machine, I would certainly fail. We do not have the capability to do it. So we are really not absolutely free. Same goes with social boundaries to freedom. They are so ingrained into our heads that we don't even feel them, and they certainly influence our behaviour and choices. Say I wanted to stand up in the middle of some meeting and shout out some private secret about myself. I couldn't do it. Say I wanted to go up to some stranger and kiss instantly. Insanity! So we're not free to do such things because we know that it's inappropriate, and this knowledge is not our knowledge, it has been ingrained into what we call 'common sense' or 'normal behaviour'. We modify our behaviour to these ideas, and it hinders our freedom.

Same with genetics. If I wanted to be a basketball player, but I was only 5"4, I wouldn't really have much chance. I'm free to do it, but the requirements for it do not allow me to fulfill my wish. Freedom is once again hindered. It is an illusion.

What I was trying to show with these examples is that our freedom is not absolute. First we recognize those barriers which can't be overcome. It's like being dealt a hand during poker. You look at the cards, and then freely decide how you will play. So the environment, our genetics and social norms of our time are just our cards in the game of life. We can't not play those cards, we can't change them.

But what we do WITH those cards, WITH that environment and genetics is completely in our hands. You were right that some freedom is an illusion. But what goes beyond the inevitability of our surroundings, genetics, environment is all in our hands. No matter what small amount of alternatives you have, you still have the ability to choose from them. If you desire absolute freedom, you certainly will be disappointed. We are not free to shape ourselves however we please. We can't rip out our arms and stick some wings in their place, if you pardon the bad example. We can't change our character and personality which has developed over time while under the influence of society. If I am a quiet introvert, it is highly unlikely that I will become an extrovert in constant yearning of social interactions. My genetics influenced my character as well, because I used to stutter, withdraw myself from contact with others in fear of ridicule. Once the stutter was gone, my character traits remained. So I was not free to change myself, even if I believed that getting rid of the stutter would totally change my personality. But what I am capable of doing with myself is an entirely different thing. I can choose what career to pursue (even if there are a limited number of choices, my freedom of choice remains), what ideas to agree with, what to value and what to frown upon. Sure, those things may be small, but that's what freedom actually is. It is making choices from what you have. You may expand your freedom if you are able to change the surroundings, give yourself more freedom, but it rarely happens - it is merely an exception, not a rule.

So really the illusion of freedom is not what you claimed, in my opinion. You say it is an illusion to believe that you can shape yourself. I say that it is an illusion to believe that you can shape yourself however you want. It is an illusion to imagine freedom to be either absolute, or nonexistent. What you stated in your last sentence was actually freedom - ability to choose from alternatives presented to us by environment, genetics, et cetera. But you made it sound like it's not freedom if you are influenced by something, that freedom is only absolute and if it's not, it's not freedom at all.

There. I really enjoy that there are topics like these in this forum. Really, interesting stuff. Even being able to present my views to people and have them read and even respond really alleviates some of the loneliness. I look forward to more thoughts on this topic. :)
 
Noted.
A couple of points. I believe freedom to be an absolute.. you can't be sorta free.
I still disagree with the notion that we're free to shape ourselves. Our choices are determined by both our genetics and our environment, what we have experienced and come into contact with. I believe 'influenced' was the wrong word for me to use, I should have used decided. People consider this a strange thought and people reject it instantly, but I believe life to be some sort of extremely complicated maths equation with the subject being the choices we make when a situation arises.
It's a sum of infinite complexity, a factor of all our genetics, all our experiences both conscious and unconscious. With this theory we can surmise that once we have our genetic structure then our life is already determined to some degree, this is also linking to a multiverse system since our genetic code has already been added to the 'formula', we have only our experiences to gain, it's much like substitution in mathematics, since you have all our experiences conscious and unconscious to account for in the equation you substitute someone else's life in to the equation regarding the choices the formula would dictate they would make in an algebraic fashion, this accounts for contact with other people. Then the problem arises of there being different physical conditions on earth... natural disasters, variations in weather things like that, so to resolve that issue I think there is a multiverse system where depending on variables such as weather conditions the universe splits off an infinite number of times for the infinite number of possibilities, so to bring it all together and not veer from the point TOO much, we do not have the freedom to shape ourselves because we're given our genetics, other people are given their genetics, if we rearrange the equation and substitute in all the contact we make with other beings, humans, cats, all their genetic structure we're left with what choices we'll make, so we're not free to shape ourselves, our lives are already predetermined... but our lives are still beautiful, unique and interesting, the multiverse system allows for this, there is an infinite number of possibilities depending on variation of physical conditions.

I know this all seems very far fetched, one of the reasons is my lack of eloquence, I've tried to express this theory as best as I could, but I'm not much of a linguist.

Hell, you may even think I'm crazy now :p
 
Freedom as an absolute? An absolute privilege or an absolute right? Or an absolute state of being?

It's interesting you bring in pre-destination. Surely this is the biggest curb to freedom as a whole? Are we only fish in a tank? Allowed to stretch our freedom as far as the solid glass is?

Do you believe that some people are pre-destined to be criminals and thus are consequently and ultimately not free? Or were they ever?

Sorry, as a law student this interests me. Freedom, I believe, is simply one right that needs to be balanced alongside the rights of others and their right to freedom too.

I'm not a dictator, honest. *shifts eyes*
 
An absolute. You can either be free or not free - you can't be sorta free.

We're intelligent beings in a universe that is habitable purely by chance.

We're not living by a script, we're living by an equation with an infinite amount of variables so we're not pre-destined to be anything, this is not an equation without fluidity, there are variables that can as variables do.. variate :p

I don't believe we're free so we have nothing to stretch out to the glass.

This theory doesn't negate law, the bad people still need to be separated from the good people :p

 
The only absolute privileges granted by the European Convention of Human Rights are the Right to Life (art 2) and the Freedom from Torture (art 3), though.

I dunno. I think freedom is a truly subjective principle. I believe I am free in all the ways that matter, but yet I'm stuck doing boring-arse revision and have a massive weight of student loan around my neck (thank youuuuu new labour).

It's as fluid as love and hope. Surely a killer in a cell can be free if he has hope and faith?

You can't quantify freedom. And you can't put it in a box (no pun intended).

:) that's my personal view. But.... As I said, freedom is not absolute.

Lol, u mad bro? :p
 
PurpleDays said:
The only absolute privileges granted by the European Convention of Human Rights are the Right to Life (art 2) and the Freedom from Torture (art 3), though.

I dunno. I think freedom is a truly subjective principle. I believe I am free in all the ways that matter, but yet I'm stuck doing boring-arse revision and have a massive weight of student loan around my neck (thank youuuuu new labour).

It's as fluid as love and hope. Surely a killer in a cell can be free if he has hope and faith?

You can't quantify freedom. And you can't put it in a box (no pun intended).

:) that's my personal view. But.... As I said, freedom is not absolute.

Lol, u mad bro? :p
I ain't even mad. :p

Don't you get all law-y on me. I don't know the law. :club:

We obviously have differing opinions.

It's only a theory, but I think it fits perfectly. Perhaps I'm biased. Or just bat honeysuckle crazy. I hope not.
 
:club: well, you are chained in the cellar... Probably why you're so crazy about freedom...

There, there. *pats and feeds peanuts*


:D.

I do love a good debate. But not mass-debates. (D)
 
Nobody is crazy here, just opinionated :D

Interesting point of view. However all I can think while I read this, if you pardon my lack of tact, are rationalizations. I really don't know you or your situation in life but what I see is someone who wishes to deny all responsibility that he has over his life. It can be very comforting to think that everything is set in stone and we're just watching it play out. I'm not saying that you really are, I'm just noticing. Sorry if this offends you.

I could give one example of this pre-destination that PurpleDays noticed. It is predisposition to something. Almost similar words. Predisposition is genetic, and it means that there are certain genetic conditions which, given the right push, can manifest themselves into actual characteristics or symptoms. Predisposition to cancer increases the risk of cancer, but we can't say that the person was born with cancer. He might as well live a long and healthy life, despite having a greater risk for cancer. Or if people somehow have a predisposition to believe in god (since so many people in the past believed in at least some deity, just like they do now), that doesn't mean that everybody WILL believe in god, even if they're predisposed. Given certain way of thinking and some convincing proof (or lack thereof) might convince a person to turn to atheism.

I've seen a documentary (can't remember the name, ****) where some doctors argued that criminals do have a predisposition to violent and offensive behaviour, but it only surfaces when there are certain conditions. For example, when such a person is abused as a child or suffers from some other physical/emotional trauma. From a genetic standpoint, it could be explained by regulation of gene expression. Some genes are there, but they're inactive. I don't know how but certain conditions might activate those genes. Only then we notice that they're actually there. If this would be completely proven, it would be interesting to see how would the law decide to inflict punishment if they knew that certain criminals really had no freedom of stopping themselves. Would their sentences be minimized? Or would they still be judged like they would be if those crimes were in complete control of their conscious decisions?

All in all, I think we should not argue whether freedom to shape ourselves exists. There might be no correct answer, just like with so many other philosophical concepts.

We must ask why we think it exists or why we think it doesn't. If we know why we think about a given subject in a certain way it might reveal something about us. We must, I think, understand how we came to a conclusion, and then wonder what it means to think that way.

My own belief is best expressed with PurpleDays' analogy of the fish tank. Surely there are limits - the solid glass - but what happens within the fish tank is mostly the result of our freedom. Once again I repeat myself - freedom is not absolute nor nonexistent. It is the ability to choose from a limited number of alternatives. What it means to think that way: I do recognize that there are unchangeable aspects of my life which I must follow and cannot break, but I also do not deprive myself of responsibility over my actions, because I am able to choose within those boundaries of predispositions.


 
I love debates too. They can plant the seed for an idea. Make you think. Like with all things, I get bored of them very quickly.

I'm not chained, I have to be down here.. vampires need to stay out of the sunlight :club:

Hey, who knew cats could this interesting (D)
 
****, I now realize why I'm so lonely. You both here seem to be chatting quite relaxed and I'm not quite used to that sort of chatting. When I chat, I chat about certain things. Not simply for the fun of it. I REALLY need to develop my social skills, even on the internet :D I suck at chatting :D

 
Sorry to act as the devil's advocate, but I personally believe pre-destination to be a load of cop-out hooey.

Being born in a cake-shop does not a fat man maketh. Living in a crack den does not make a criminal.

I'm not saying we are not beset and disabled at all points in life by others and instances, no way, but I am very hopeful and believe in the over-arching existence of self-determination and choice, overall.

:)
 

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