Sci-Fi said:
Don't waste your time MissBehave, you won't change their minds. No one ever has and never will, they've been beating the same arguments for years. They ignore anything positive or anything that contradicts their arguments and only ever focus on what supports it. No matter what you say or do they will always have something else to come back at you with. It's a waste of time and negativity like that will only drag you down. None of us here need more negativity and toxicity in our lives.
Depending on one's point of view, it could be said that this post is itself negativity and toxicity. It certainly doesn't do anything to assuage anyone's feelings of frustration or despair, or to understand anyone at all. Frankly, I feel like the contempt in this post is only barely more subtle than earlier negative and toxic posts calling people "wastes of time" that "don't add any value to people's lives", just based on posts which only show a fraction of who a person is or why they feel the way they do. And since when is subtlety a measure of right and wrong, especially when the intent is the same? Everyone has their own thoughts, feelings, and opinions in private, and it would be one thing for a member to say something like this, but for a moderator to talk about members of the site like this openly, to openly take part in invalidating people, calling them a waste and negative and toxic, to publicly dismiss and shame members as a lost cause - on a support forum no less - I think it's belittling, derogatory, offensive, and disappointing. And this isn't the first time I've seen you say stuff like this either. I don't think it's right, especially for a place like this.
And if you don't like MGTOWs or MRAs or whatever, dismissing people instead of understanding them or at least letting them vent, saying that they aren't even worth a dialogue (while feeling higher than them and patting yourself on the back for it), just pushes people further into those spaces. It just polarizes people more, and I'm glad to finally see some articles calling this out. I don't know what will really change anyone's mind, but dismissing someone as a waste of time or toxic or an incel or a loser, definitely won't. Nonacceptance doesn't give any incentive for a person to see anyone else's side.
The main premise here is that we all have some problem or another. I would think that would make us all more understanding and less judgmental, especially of each other, and more free and comfortable to speak our minds. But that hasn't been the case. People come here for a lot of reasons. One of those is to vent. It has its place. Maybe through venting people can solve a problem together. Or maybe they just find people that relate, and in doing so, at least they feel like somebody understands both their situation and them as a person, makes them feel less alone, and willing to make it to another day.
Have you ever really talked to ardour or Xpendable? Gotten to know them a bit as people, instead of just as forum posts that you disagree with or personally dislike? Gotten a sense of who they are, their experiences, not just how they feel but why they feel the way they do? I have. I feel like if a person wants to the boss of something, they should at least care in some capacity about how the people are doing - all the people, not just the ones you like and agree with. And I feel like this is especially true for what's supposed to be a support space. Otherwise I'd question why you'd even want the job. If it's all about having power and authority somewhere, anywhere, then I don't think it's a good fit, and I don't think it's right to use a loneliness forum for that purpose, and the role would be better suited to a more understanding person. Someone who felt the role was more about counseling than policing, especially when that policing is selective. Forcing people to either be positive or shut up, when they don't feel like they have much to be positive about, not only doesn't make sense for this place, but seems cruel. What's negative and toxic to you is somebody else's life, and to talk about people like that instead of giving them some space just looks like you're trying to highroad people that you personally don't like, or gatekeep whose problems are real and whose aren't. When you feel like singledom is being imposed on you, like romantic relationships are a gated community that isn't for "your kind", but everyone else takes it as a given, as a normal part of life that "just happens", yeah, that feels pretty negative. I get that being negative is itself unattractive, but that negativity doesn't just come from nowhere. It comes from how the way things have gone for you and how that makes you feel.
The posts that helped me through times of anger, despair, pessimism, and sadness, they haven't been the ones that tried to invalidate me and my experiences, told me my thoughts and feelings weren't real or worth anything, or basically told me to shut up because someone didn't find them entertaining as if that's the purpose, or out of some sense of claiming the moral high ground. No. The most helpful posts to me were the ones that made me feel listened to and understood, like, even if a person had a different experience or disagreed with me, they could at least acknowledge that my experiences were what they were, and influenced me to think and feel the way I do - they could accept that that's how it is, to me. They made me feel heard, and it felt a little better that someone was saying "I hear you, I have some ideas but you might not agree/not be ready/are looking for something else, take them or leave them in your own time" instead of "you should feel the way I think you should feel, your problems aren't real/don't matter, shut up".
For example, MissBehave's posts in this very thread. Kudos to her for showing patience and understanding, even if she doesn't necessarily agree with all the viewpoints mentioned, instead of just taking the easy way out and heaping scorn on people struggling.
harper said:
The very idea that a man has "nothing to bargain with" should be dismissed out of hand.
Approach women you find approachable. Forget the cheerleaders and underwear models.
Yeah, perhaps. Sometimes I think that I do view myself in too negative a light and tell myself it's pointless to even try cause I'm one of the "lesser" people, one of Darwin's losers, rather than trying to disprove or defy it.
I also read an article about this kind of stuff lately that really got me down, so that probably didn't help.
As far as women I find approachable, ironically the only ones I find approachable are the ones I'm not attracted to. I'm not anxious with them, but I'm not excited either. With them I'm not really trying to do anything except be friendly and pass the time. The ones I am attracted to, I trip over my thoughts and words and just come off lame. I get nerves and brain fog and I get overly cautious, and if confidence is the number one thing, well, you get the idea.
It's not cheerleaders and underwear models I'm after though. I couldn't see myself relating to that kind of person.
MissBehave said:
Some of those that end up going bitter or whatever it is, they feel closed off. Unapproachable. It's very easy to end up like that and I'm not saying it's unjustified... But... They emit this toxicity that keeps people away. Keeping yourself open to the very thing that hurts you is no easy feat though. I guess it's a common sense way of protecting yourself. Don't stand in fire
I don't know how it is for everyone but for me, I don't feel closed off or unapproachable. It's that barely anyone ever approaches. And it's seeing certain patterns over and over again, in my life and others. Maybe it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy after a while, but it feels like there's no way out no matter what I do, nothing I do will be enough because anything I do comes from me, and I
am the fault, I
am the problem.
MissBehave said:
They are hiding themselves rather than showing the real hunter that they are. That isn't about toxicity, that is about lies. There is a very real different feeling that they admit. I was approached by this guy that are now serving max penalty in Norway for rape, I think it was 20 women or something that he got his hands on. He got 21 years. Maybe it was because I'm used to that air that they have around themselves that made me see him for what he was. I didn't end up with him because I felt that danger. So many other women didn't and that's cause people like him know exactly what to say in every situation and how to fit with multiple girls. He's not just wearing this 1 jacked up alpha male costume, he's everything at once.
Yeah, they do that. Knowing exactly what to say in every situation, how to fit with multiple people, being everything at once. That's like the smooth-talker I was talking about.
Anyway, glad you managed to dodge the bullet.
Siku said:
I understand the feeling, but indifference paired with significant bitterness is only going to keep you exactly where you're at. Maybe understanding the other side of it and seeing yourself constructively may actually have women see you in a more welcoming light. As some very clearly push away the very thing they are upset for not having. Unable to see past the clouds they've created for themselves.
Fortifying yourself with facts over actually placing yourself in the mindset of the very thing you begin to resent but also long for. To what end? Why are you alienating the very thing you wish you had? To re-fortify the ego? You've only dug yourself a bigger hole with very strong feelings in the guise of thinking. Which will have you mistakenly push it all away. Some self-reflection is key if you want to get out of your personal hell. Forgive, forget, and embrace. You might surprise yourself of what comes out of the ashes if you let go of resentment or a self-fortified mindset.
Most women or men do not fall under the stereo-types. If they do, they just might be trying too hard to be something they are not in order to be seen. It's social non-sense paired with confirmation bias that's fed to the inexperienced or fortified by the unlucky who fail to see they actually attract it with their own fantasies and "types". Ironically brainwashed by society. The end result is people who often fail to be themselves and think they need to be what the world deems and shows as acceptable. And if they do have traits you hate? Then change YOUR type, steer clear, and keep moving.
What is the difference between, "he/she will over look me because I'm ugly and have nothing worth value" between genders? There is none! It's a human trait just with entirely different milestones or expectations. No one is everyone at once. No one seemingly has it easier and to say that boldly only shows how stuck on your feelings and perception you are. Who's going to step out and try to be seen in this situation? Be the change you want in others, don't just expect it to happen suddenly when you yourself are unwilling to do the same. Put the real you out there. Don't let your bitterness or agony be the only thing that voices itself and continue to wonder why no angel who's a bigger person than you magically comes around to lift you out of your slumber and see something that's hidden away. They don't know you because you haven't shown anything other than the worst of you, your hurt, or an ego.
Open your horizons, or stay where you're at. That is your decision. No one is going to save you from yourself unless you extend your own hand in the process.
Show some other vulnerability, show more of yourself in order to be seen. Something warm. Not cold. Then maybe, just maybe, someone will love what they see and look past the surface. Something EVERYONE should be doing too - Looking past the surface and the superficial bullshit all the same.... And just see people as people....
Hmm, that's food for thought. I'll have to mull this over.
You are all getting a *hug* nonetheless! 
I’ll won’t loose hope though. I always see possibilities for others cause there is always good stuff in everyone. 
