No one wants to commit anymore

[ardour]

Rodent you're misrepresenting a few things here. Alimony, as distinct from child support, is rarely awarded nowadays. It isn't usually enough to live on unless one partner is wealthy and the law is officially gender neutral; female 'breadwinners' could in theory end up paying alimony (or 'spousal support', the various terms for it outside the US).

When my parents divorced my father ended up paying only $10 a week child support. Men who seek full or partial child custody more often than not are successful. Not as one-sided as you think.

Marriage based on mutual happiness is probably preferable to an economic/social contract style arrangement where the woman has no choice but to depend on her husband and both end up loathing each other.

I'm also mildly annoyed at the assertion the normal/average guy is so unintelligent that he sees himself primarily as a utility.

 

[EmilyFoxSeaton]

Fair enough. I think it's just necessary to mention that being considered (valuable) property comes with the bonus of protection since women are less expendable than men from a biological point of view. This is not meant to excuse, merely to explain.

Fair enough. Yes. they were protected/ cared for / given all marital assets if the husband died. It was a quid pro quo. If you got a husband back then, it really was something. You were set for life. But if he was abusive you could have been abused for life.

I think that's an aspect worthy of revision and it has been partially abolished in some countries or select states within them. I mean, if you get alimony for life and you enjoy that standard of living there might not be any motivation to ever pick up a job again...

But you can make the argument that because alimony has not been abolished and still is given out what is its purpose? In theory it is to make sure that the person doesn't get punshed by divorcing the person they are divorcing by having to live a reduced standard of living. But in a day and age when anyone can get a job and can make choices, it just seems like another way for the state to force people to stay "married". In other words, a divorce tax. A guy who could be subject to alimony might choose not to leave based on that alone.

Yes, some even resort to shaming tactics in order to sell the now broken system of marriage. But women and men will still want to have children and may want to have some sort of "badge" that seals the deal and ensures a certain level of legal security for both. Problem is the obvious imbalance...

I think it is already happening. I know a few couples who to me, seem to have made a bargain and both seem very focused on getting what they want. So they might not have said it out-loud but their marriage seems focused on a platonic partnership where they have kids for mutual advancement not "love" I feel like both Hillary and Bill and Barack and Michelle have this kind of relationship. I would not even be surprised if there is an implicit agreement that they can have sex outside the marriage as long as they don't get caught. When I got to grad school I felt like somehow I had missed out. Like everyone got paired up with their partner before that. Now I wonder if I am just not in the know but like college or certain colleges pair these people up. I lived at home during college and hardly socialized at all and didn't go to a school that was for the "special" ones.

I do really feel you will not get promotions in the more "respected" fields unless you are with someone (streight or gay). This is for a few reasons (1) basically, being tied down keeps you under control. By and large you will be more stable with someone and generally will want to keep your job for someone else. (2) generally there is an idea that they sucked it up and got married and you should to. I think married people resent single. But I think this might be falling by the way side too. By and large the vast majority of people who got married for the "love" are having divorces that are super messy and keep the employee in a perpetual state of craziness and drama.

 

[user 115627]

Rodent you're misrepresenting a few things here. Alimony, as distinct from child support, is rarely awarded nowadays. It isn't usually enough to live on unless one partner is wealthy and the law is officially gender neutral; female 'breadwinners' could in theory end up paying alimony (or 'spousal support', the various terms for it outside the US).

When my parents divorced my father ended up paying only $10 a week child support. Men who seek full or partial child custody more often than not are successful. Not as one-sided as you think.

Marriage based on mutual happiness is probably preferable to an economic/social contract style arrangement where the woman has no choice but to depend on her husband and both end up loathing each other.

I'm also mildly annoyed at the assertion the normal/average guy is so unintelligent that he sees himself primarily as a utility.

Well, as long as I didn't mispresent everything I'm glad to be educated on certain aspects...

I do know that alimony is rarely awarded nowadays, but it's not wholly abolished either, is it? Most of my knowledge comes from US sources which also seems to be the place where the typical alimony "horror stories" are coming from. You know, the cases where both parties are major earners, then a child arrives, woman decides to stop working to take of said child, but the living standard needs to be upheld. Man works overtime and is never at home, conflicts ensue, woman files for divorce, takes child with herself and man is working forever to pay support. Are these all old stories that could never happen in the present? That's something I'm trying to look into...

But I don't know the situation in New Zealand, but judging by your knowledge and personal experience I reckon it is reformed to a major degree. Which is the case in Germany as well, this much I know. Did both of your parents work full-time and were roughly equal earners? And when did they divorce if this is not too much to ask?

If what you say is true about men seeking full or partial custody being successful is true on average, I do wonder about the implications. Are we talking in general or about cases where the mother is deemed less fit to be the full or major custodian for personal or financial reasons?

Certainly agree on the mutual happiness preposition.

My assertion has nothing to do with male intelligence, but with male identity. The average man is unlikely to see himself as a utility. He will define himself through his actions and their usefulness/benefit to himself and others though. That's what I'm talking about. A simple exercise in that regard would be asking what a "real man" and what a "real woman" is and to compare both.

 

[EmilyFoxSeaton]

Today someone posted on my facebook feed about it being the anniversary of Charles and Di getting married. If that isn't the poster boy for all that is wrong with the current "romance fable" that destroys happiness and causes men to rethink committing.

* Diana as I see it came to believe that she should be "loved" forever in her marriage and only began to act out when she realized she wasn't loved by her husband. Perhaps she bought the princess fairy tale.
* Her husband didn't love her, but was under tremendous pressure to marry someone that seemed acceptable and have some kids. A problem most men face at some point.

Think about all that Diana had and threw it all away because she bought this crazy fairy tale that she should be "in love" with someone constantly. It was that false belief that caused all her problems. How much better would it have been if she accepted that just being Princess was pretty darn great and having a strong partner in Charles -- though maybe not all consuming love -- was pretty good.

If your Charles, you did everything right. You married the person who seemed great. You didn't smack her around and she turned crazy. Ok sure, obviously I feel the pressure got to Diana, sure he could have made mistakes, but...

I do think lessons were learned. But Kate Middleton really seems to be a practical girl. Not saying that Will cheats because I am sure his parents problems got to him, but I can see that Kate doesn't always get exactly what she wants. But I think she gets that she has a tremendous gift just having what she has. While I think Will is very careful to watch out for she so she doesn't get overwelmned. They seem like a true power couple. Most people say this is "friends" first, but I think even that is wrong. Find someone who wants what you want, and that you can stand... give them space and give them kindness and agree or be forced into a long term relationship.

So here is a question, how would you fix things?

 

[VanillaCreme]

Think about all that Diana had and threw it all away because she bought this crazy fairy tale that she should be "in love" with someone constantly. It was that false belief that caused all her problems. How much better would it have been if she accepted that just being Princess was pretty darn great and having a strong partner in Charles -- though maybe not all consuming love -- was pretty good.

Why is it crazy to want to love someone and have someone love you? Love doesn't necessarily mean ultra romantic fairytales. It doesn't take much to love someone. She wasn't just supposed to accept anything if she wasn't happy with it.

 

[M_also_lonely]

Not trying to offend anyone or diving into stereotypes, but I can't believe it when women say they can't find a guy!! Almost half of the male race is looking for a woman. Fine, some look for sex only, and some aren't interested in getting into a commited relationship. But if we subtract them, there is still a huge number of guys, who want to have a partner. Do you know that there is this huge class of guys who are not even taken into account because they are shy, or dont know how to make girls smile back to them or make them laugh?. Does that mean that they can't love? Or dont derserve to be listened? There are guys whose teenage and adulthood goes away, while they figure out what those charming alpha males did and how.

Isnt it a paradox when all the women in the world tell them that "There is someone great out there for you."
I guess it means, "I don't know whether you will get someone or you'd end up alone, not that I care, but you will never get me. I want a prince, who is perfect in every aspects, unlike you. You can't even talk."

Yeah I have heard a lot about how women can read minds, but that would mean one of the two things, 1.) They are cruel. Even though they can read that a guy likes them truly, they make an excuse that they didn't know about his feelings, because he never expressed them. And when a guy of their dreams appears, they get this intuition about how he is 'the one' 2) They are fooling people that they can read minds, to show them how great they are.


Look again, how conditional is your love. It is stopping you from getting someone's unconditional love.
If you say you have a nice personality, there are 1000s out of 100 guys who like you. If you are in a college, consider the guy who never talks to you or any girl, who looks at you strangely and avoids eye contact. He likes you so much, that he wouldnt mind marrying you. He hopes that someday you will look back and just give a smile. But poor guy doesn't know that unconditional love has condtions like similar interests, which SEEMS to come only after physical attraction, which probably he doesn't possess. I never had a girlfriend so I am not sure, but I believe that a girl should give a chance to a guy who is not physically attractive, but wants to express something.

 

[Xpendable]

I never had a girlfriend so I am not sure, but I believe that a girl should give a chance to a guy who is not physically attractive, but wants to express something.

Good luck with that.

 

[M_also_lonely]

I never had a girlfriend so I am not sure, but I believe that a girl should give a chance to a guy who is not physically attractive, but wants to express something.

Good luck with that.

I said "SHOULD" I know the reality.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

I'll give anyone who ISN'T playing Pokemon Go a chance. That's realistic, ain't it? :club:

 

[VanillaCreme]

I never had a girlfriend so I am not sure, but I believe that a girl should give a chance to a guy who is not physically attractive, but wants to express something.

Good luck with that.

Well, don't say it like it's not possible. I don't care about looks. I'm sure I'm not the only lady who doesn't, as I'm not the exception. Might be hard, but it's not impossible.

 

[Xpendable]

I'll give anyone who ISN'T playing Pokemon Go a chance. That's realistic, ain't it? :club:

No one is playing on my continent... for now.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

I'll give anyone who ISN'T playing Pokemon Go a chance. That's realistic, ain't it? :club:

No one is playing on my continent... for now.

Are they blocked from it? I'm moving in

 

[Xpendable]

Is not available yet.

 

[M_also_lonely]

I'll give anyone who ISN'T playing Pokemon Go a chance. That's realistic, ain't it? :club:

Hey hey, atleast it is making people extroverts!

 

[kamya]

I'll give anyone who ISN'T playing Pokemon Go a chance. That's realistic, ain't it? :club:

I dunno. Could be hard to find. Then theyd have to be interested in the first place. Given that they dont play pokemon go id say its not likely.

I wish you luck on your quest as well! =p

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

I dunno. Could be hard to find. Then theyd have to be interested in the first place. Given that they dont play pokemon go id say its not likely.

I wish you luck on your quest as well! =p

Quest? I didn't say I was looking. But if that supposed unattractive guy shows up and is interested, and doesn't play pokemon go, why not :club:

 

[blackdot]

This thread could fit anything. I actually didn't know it was relationship related until I clicked on it.
As someone that is big into community service and charity groups, people have commitment issues everywhere. A lot of groups are dying off because no one will join. Since most people live off their cell phones and don't want to commit to anything, groups have no members. Without members, there is no one to organize events. Without events, there is nothing for people to do. Then the cell phone people sit around complaining that there are never any events to be part of. A lot of it is related to the "MeetUp" type websites where all you do is wait for someone to do something and then you tag along. No commitment necessary.

In regards to "relationships", it is unfortunately the same way. Back when I was young enough to be dateable, women on dating sites complained that they kept meeting people that wanted to communicate or do things with them. They seemed to be used to the "do things once and move on" type of lifestyle that online dating sites provide.

 

[EmilyFoxSeaton]

Not trying to offend anyone or diving into stereotypes, but I can't believe it when women say they can't find a guy!! I want a prince, who is perfect in every aspects, unlike you. You can't even talk."

Well I don't know where you get this idea... perhaps we are just in different worlds. But I don't see it that way. There is no one... NO ONE, at my workplace who is single who isn't (1) married; (2) with a gf; (3) gay and or (4) too young. There might be people on my train but it is inappropriate to approach there. Dating sites are proliferated with scammers and creeps so if there is someone there.. can't find them... my apartment complex has not a single - single man. But about 25 great single women.

But on the idea of "I want a prince" maybe some fools feel this why but I think the vast majority of women I see settle for far too little. When women are independent they need a guy who is going to add value to their lives or, what is the point? You don't get credit for "trying". Just like guys are weary girls have to be weary. There is a lot to lose if you misjudge a guy as a woman.

But I agree that this commitment problem is happening with regular relationships as well. Not particularly sure why but I do feel like on a friendship level I just find regular people so lacking as well and seem not to share any things that I am interested in.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not trying to offend anyone or diving into stereotypes, but I can't believe it when women say they can't find a guy!! Almost half of the male race is looking for a woman. Fine, some look for sex only, and some aren't interested in getting into a commited relationship. But if we subtract them, there is still a huge number of guys, who want to have a partner. Do you know that there is this huge class of guys who are not even taken into account because they are shy, or dont know how to make girls smile back to them or make them laugh?. Does that mean that they can't love? Or dont derserve to be listened? There are guys whose teenage and adulthood goes away, while they figure out what those charming alpha males did and how.

Isnt it a paradox when all the women in the world tell them that "There is someone great out there for you."
I guess it means, "I don't know whether you will get someone or you'd end up alone, not that I care, but you will never get me. I want a prince, who is perfect in every aspects, unlike you. You can't even talk."

Yeah I have heard a lot about how women can read minds, but that would mean one of the two things, 1.) They are cruel. Even though they can read that a guy likes them truly, they make an excuse that they didn't know about his feelings, because he never expressed them. And when a guy of their dreams appears, they get this intuition about how he is 'the one' 2) They are fooling people that they can read minds, to show them how great they are.


Look again, how conditional is your love. It is stopping you from getting someone's unconditional love.
If you say you have a nice personality, there are 1000s out of 100 guys who like you. If you are in a college, consider the guy who never talks to you or any girl, who looks at you strangely and avoids eye contact. He likes you so much, that he wouldnt mind marrying you. He hopes that someday you will look back and just give a smile. But poor guy doesn't know that unconditional love has condtions like similar interests, which SEEMS to come only after physical attraction, which probably he doesn't possess. I never had a girlfriend so I am not sure, but I believe that a girl should give a chance to a guy who is not physically attractive, but wants to express something.

Couldn't all that also be said about men?

I see so many threads bashing women, saying women are too picky, then turn around and seeing the same about men. Does no one else see this? Is it really just me?

Clearly there is something getting lost in translation here....

 

[ardour]

Not trying to offend anyone or diving into stereotypes, but I can't believe it when women say they can't find a guy!! I want a prince, who is perfect in every aspects, unlike you. You can't even talk."

Well I don't know where you get this idea... perhaps we are just in different worlds. But I don't see it that way. There is no one... NO ONE, at my workplace who is single who isn't (1) married; (2) with a gf; (3) gay and or (4) too young. There might be people on my train but it is inappropriate to approach there. Dating sites are proliferated with scammers and creeps so if there is someone there.. can't find them... my apartment complex has not a single - single man. But about 25 great single women.

But on the idea of "I want a prince" maybe some fools feel this why but I think the vast majority of women I see settle for far too little. When women are independent they need a guy who is going to add value to their lives or, what is the point? You don't get credit for "trying". Just like guys are weary girls have to be weary. There is a lot to lose if you misjudge a guy as a woman.

But I agree that this commitment problem is happening with regular relationships as well. Not particularly sure why but I do feel like on a friendship level I just find regular people so lacking as well and seem not to share any things that I am interested in.

Obviously we don't have as much reason to be wary. And it seems that women are pickier and not prepared to compromise as much anyway. But then I might just be saying that because I'm single with not much hope of that changing at 37.

Just about everyone where I work is shy, socially awkward etc. and there is a definite difference. Almost all the women are partnered up, while about two thirds of the men are single.

By the way; how do you know the women in your building are "great"? You know them all personally, or do you just assume it. Unattractive males have to overcome negative perceptions of men on top of the general disadvantages associated with not looking so great.