Social experiment

[TheRealCallie]

I also already explained that I was not blaming any victims. Reading my previous post would have told you that. Try reading a whole topic before you jump in, please.

Why can't some of you just think about what you're saying before you start judging others and jumping to conclusions?
I hate when people jump to conclusions - especially extremely wrong ones. It's problems like this that make me enjoy being alone, away from people.

I read the whole topic. You said we (and I say WE because I've been in a relationship such as you've described) ENJOY being abused, being made to feel worthless. We do not and it took me a VERY long time to find myself after the relationship ended. It took me years to come to terms and realize I was not worthless and that I did matter. There's a few people here who can tell you how much I struggled over the 5 years I've been out of the relationship I was in.
I did not enjoy the abuse and I did not enjoy the journey to find myself and be okay with myself. If it weren't for my kids, I would likely not have survived it. THAT is how much I detested myself and how much I did not think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I would ever have a life again.
You have no idea what women like that, what women like myself go through in a relationship like that and to say that we ENJOY it is bullshit and just plain ignorant. (again, not calling YOU ignorant, just the statement)

 

[Despicable Me]

I read the whole topic.

Then you shouldn't have anymore disagreements.

You said we (and I say WE because I've been in a relationship such as you've described) ENJOY being abused, being made to feel worthless.

And I already clarified what I meant by that for you.

We do not and it took me a VERY long time to find myself after the relationship ended.

You can disagree with my semantics, but inevitably we are saying the same thing. The fact you took a long time to 'find yourself' would only support what I've said. You did not know yourself. You didn't even like your old self. You needed to become something new, someone who you liked. You needed to find your true self.

Why do you think that was?

It took me years to come to terms and realize I was not worthless and that I did matter. There's a few people here who can tell you how much I struggled over the 5 years I've been out of the relationship I was in.
I did not enjoy the abuse and I did not enjoy the journey to find myself and be okay with myself. If it weren't for my kids, I would likely not have survived it. THAT is how much I detested myself and how much I did not think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I would ever have a life again.

You're taking what I said the wrong way. I already admitted that my wording might have been insensitive, but asked for what you might call it. You haven't really provided a suggestion for a different word.
You've disagreed with the semantics yet not provided an alternative.

I apologize if I offended you, but as I stated before I am not blaming any victims here. I agreed that people in these relationships are rather 'brainwashed' to be in them. It is, like you state, a mentality issue. These victims think too low of themselves to believe they deserve more, that they can have more. They see the only alternative as an end, whether it be to life itself (as you stated) or an end to relationships entirely (leading to an end to life itself).
This makes the victim, in that state, 'enjoy' being in that relationship because they do favor it opposed to their perceived alternative. This is not a state of true enjoyment, of happiness or of actual pleasure, its a state of convincing oneself that this is the best situation they can be in; a form of enjoyment, a really, really screwed up form. Some people's psychology is actually so screwed up that they actually do end up taking physical pleasure in it. It is twisted and messed up and they are the ones most tortured by their situation.
The thing I'm trying to point out is that this abuse did not start with the current abusive relationship - I'm saying that the victim has always felt abused. Sometimes a victim can even have a series of abusive relationships. It can be a continuous thing. The abuse usually starts in childhood or otherwise in youth, in some way, whether by the parents or others in society, or possibly even by society itself. It usually does not start with a boyfriend/girlfriend. They learn to accept that abuse as a condition for life before they even enter into such relationships with a significant other.

Understand what I'm saying here. I'm not stating people in this situation physically 'want' to be a victim. I'm not saying its their fault. What I'm saying is that the mentality they have is what leads them into those relationships and what leads them to stay in such a relationship even after they realize it is not a happy one. I'm just giving that mentality a description, and I'm using the closest communicable concept that I know of.
If you have a better name for this mentality then by all means go ahead and tell me what that would be.

You have no idea what women like that, what women like myself go through in a relationship like that and to say that we ENJOY it is bullshit and just plain ignorant. (again, not calling YOU ignorant, just the statement)

You know what I personally find rather ignorant? Suggesting that abusive relationships are secluded only to women and that a man could not possibly understand how a woman in such a relationship might think or feel.

What's more, I also find it rather ignorant to make straw man argumentative fallacies and ignore someone's points even when clearly explained otherwise after the first misunderstanding.

You're making this something its not, Callie. I was never blaming you, nor anyone else who might have been in a situation like yours. They are victims. You were a victim. You cannot be to blame for being a victim, such an accusation is unjustified.
What is important is that you found yourself and that those victims could also find themselves, as well. In the end I don't think it really matters what we call it.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I read the whole topic.

Then you shouldn't have anymore disagreements.

You said we (and I say WE because I've been in a relationship such as you've described) ENJOY being abused, being made to feel worthless.

And I already clarified what I meant by that for you.

We do not and it took me a VERY long time to find myself after the relationship ended.

You can disagree with my semantics, but inevitably we are saying the same thing. The fact you took a long time to 'find yourself' would only support what I've said. You did not know yourself. You didn't even like your old self. You needed to become something new, someone who you liked. You needed to find your true self.

Why do you think that was?

It took me years to come to terms and realize I was not worthless and that I did matter. There's a few people here who can tell you how much I struggled over the 5 years I've been out of the relationship I was in.
I did not enjoy the abuse and I did not enjoy the journey to find myself and be okay with myself. If it weren't for my kids, I would likely not have survived it. THAT is how much I detested myself and how much I did not think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I mattered. THAT is how much I didn't think I would ever have a life again.

You're taking what I said the wrong way. I already admitted that my wording might have been insensitive, but asked for what you might call it. You haven't really provided a suggestion for a different word.
You've disagreed with the semantics yet not provided an alternative.

I apologize if I offended you, but as I stated before I am not blaming any victims here. I agreed that people in these relationships are rather 'brainwashed' to be in them. It is, like you state, a mentality issue. These victims think too low of themselves to believe they deserve more, that they can have more. They see the only alternative as an end, whether it be to life itself (as you stated) or an end to relationships entirely (leading to an end to life itself).
This makes the victim, in that state, 'enjoy' being in that relationship because they do favor it opposed to their perceived alternative. This is not a state of true enjoyment, of happiness or of actual pleasure, its a state of convincing oneself that this is the best situation they can be in; a form of enjoyment, a really, really screwed up form. Some people's psychology is actually so screwed up that they actually do end up taking physical pleasure in it. It is twisted and messed up and they are the ones most tortured by their situation.
The thing I'm trying to point out is that this abuse did not start with the current abusive relationship - I'm saying that the victim has always felt abused. Sometimes a victim can even have a series of abusive relationships. It can be a continuous thing. The abuse usually starts in childhood or otherwise in youth, in some way, whether by the parents or others in society, or possibly even by society itself. It usually does not start with a boyfriend/girlfriend. They learn to accept that abuse as a condition for life before they even enter into such relationships with a significant other.

Understand what I'm saying here. I'm not stating people in this situation physically 'want' to be a victim. I'm not saying its their fault. What I'm saying is that the mentality they have is what leads them into those relationships and what leads them to stay in such a relationship even after they realize it is not a happy one. I'm just giving that mentality a description, and I'm using the closest communicable concept that I know of.
If you have a better name for this mentality then by all means go ahead and tell me what that would be.

You have no idea what women like that, what women like myself go through in a relationship like that and to say that we ENJOY it is bullshit and just plain ignorant. (again, not calling YOU ignorant, just the statement)

You know what I personally find rather ignorant? Suggesting that abusive relationships are secluded only to women and that a man could not possibly understand how a woman in such a relationship might think or feel.

What's more, I also find it rather ignorant to make straw man argumentative fallacies and ignore someone's points even when clearly explained otherwise after the first misunderstanding.

You're making this something its not, Callie. I was never blaming you, nor anyone else who might have been in a situation like yours. They are victims. You were a victim. You cannot be to blame for being a victim, such an accusation is unjustified.
What is important is that you found yourself and that those victims could also find themselves, as well. In the end I don't think it really matters what we call it.

I won't get into what I went through in my marriage, but why did I need to find myself? For my kids, plain and simple, I did it for my kids. So they could have at least one parent that did not abandon them. I didn't do it for myself, I did it for them. Because I couldn't take care of them the way they deserve to be cared for being the way I used to be. I couldn't be a part of society, taking them to school, driving them places, taking them shopping, being the way I was. So it wasn't for myself. Am I happy I did it, yes. Do I have more of a life now, yes. Do I feel worthless now, not usually. But I didn't do it for myself.

Can I offer a word that is better...no, but enjoyment is not it and should have never been used. Brainwashed works, though, because that's what it is. Resigned to the situation would also work, I suppose. I didn't enjoy being with him and before anyone says it, I wasn't afraid to be alone either. Without going into what I went through, I can't really say much more than that. But I can say that my marriage wasn't always the way it was in the end, we had a few good years together before he became an alcoholic. I guess I just thought he would go back to being the man I married eventually and we could be happy again, I just had to wait it out, no matter how miserable I was, because he was all I would ever be able to have.

I never said men aren't abused, you stated in your first post in this thread that WOMEN are like that, so that is what I went with, that is what I have personal experience with. I am well aware that men are also abused and I personally know some men that have been. So, no, I'm not saying only women get abused. I am going off your main statement, not your later disclaimer. What I said was that if YOU personally have not been in a situation like that, you cannot have any idea of what we really feel like, what we really go through.

But, I do think it matters immensely what you call it, as it can be VERY easy to offend someone that has been in a situation like that. It's VERY easy to make someone that has been through that or is going through that to feel worthless once again.
Did you offend me personally, no. I don't get offended. But, what you said was offensive and I'm not the type of person to let it go without saying something, just in case someone that is going through it or working to get out of it is reading it. Because I've been through it, I know how hard it is, I know how easy it is to fall back into that way of thinking about yourself and I don't want anyone to go through any more pain than they have to. If something I can say helps them, I will say it. If something I say can show them they are not alone, I will say it. If something I say can show someone that what they said was offensive and wrong, I will say it. Because I can, because I'm not afraid to.

 

[Despicable Me]

Callie, I understand what you mean. I'll try to watch my wording with that in the future and try to think of a better way to put it.

I'm sorry for what you went through. Nobody should have to go through that.

I never said men aren't abused, you stated in your first post in this thread that WOMEN are like that, so that is what I went with, that is what I have personal experience with.

Just to point it out, but in the same paragraph, I believe even in the same sentence, I did mention how it also applied to men. I only mentioned women first because that is how the topic was posed, talking specifically about one woman that the topic creator 'experimented' with.

I am going off your main statement, not your later disclaimer.

To reiterate: The "disclaimer" was part of my "main statement", so the two should have rightfully been taken as a whole and not separated.

What I said was that if YOU personally have not been in a situation like that, you cannot have any idea of what we really feel like, what we really go through.

I know what you said, and more importantly I know what you meant.
However, what I was pointing out is that you were unjustified in the conclusions and just making assumptions because of a possible poor wording choice.

Maybe I have been through an abusive relationship before, maybe not. I don't really think it matters. I would disagree that you can't understand what something is like without going through it yourself.
I have never been sky-diving before but I know that it is exhilarating, frightening, and that the wind whips at and around your body as you float down to Earth.
I have also never been stabbed by a knife before, but I know what being cut and stabbed feels like and can imagine that being stabbed by a knife feels very similar.

You know what I mean? You don't have to go through an experience to know what it's like, you merely just have to understand the full situation.

And if it matters to you, yes, I was in an emotionally abusive relationship once a long time ago. That's a whole different story, though.

But, I do think it matters immensely what you call it, as it can be VERY easy to offend someone that has been in a situation like that. It's VERY easy to make someone that has been through that or is going through that to feel worthless once again.

If someone has truly escaped the mentality, I don't think it is likely to recur.
But yes, I understand what you mean. I often forget other people's feelings because I personally have a 'hard shell' and I'm not bothered by words.

Did you offend me personally, no. I don't get offended. But, what you said was offensive and I'm not the type of person to let it go without saying something, just in case someone that is going through it or working to get out of it is reading it.

To be honest, I'm used to offending people and I don't know how to care about that. Some people find my personal beliefs offensive. They find who I really am, as a person, offensive. Am I supposed to just abandon my beliefs, abandon myself as an individual, just because other people are offended by them? I disagree with anyone who might think so.
So what I've learned to do is just accept the fact that some people are offended by me and just move on, or try to explain myself if I think it is worthwhile.

People can get offended at even the most stupid things, so there is really not much point in worrying about offending people. That may sound rude or mean, but I can't see any way around this.

Because I've been through it, I know how hard it is, I know how easy it is to fall back into that way of thinking about yourself and I don't want anyone to go through any more pain than they have to. If something I can say helps them, I will say it. If something I say can show them they are not alone, I will say it. If something I say can show someone that what they said was offensive and wrong, I will say it. Because I can, because I'm not afraid to.

I like it when people stand up for themselves and for others. It takes a strong person to do that.
I am the same way, now. I stand up for what I believe. Not so much because of my past relationships but because of who I once was. That person is dead now. I am someone completely different.

By the way, I hope you don't mean that it's still easy to fall back into that way of thinking for you, now. If so, realize your strength. It takes a strong person to stand up for others, but remember to always stand up for yourself, as well. You can only do so much for your kids when you do nothing for yourself. Remember that.

P.S. Sorry to everyone for going off topic. Feel free to continue the earlier discussion.

 

[kamya]

I know this is off topic but dude your arms are HUGE. And you could easily take a much better picture of yourself to put on your profile.

 

[stork_error]

No I dont think women like "abuse" per say, but i do think most of them like the emotionally unavailable players and most men like the hot bad girls, because much of humanity is dysfunctional, both male and female. But, if you're admitting that you want the one who didnt want you then you are the exact same as she is and equally dysfunctional. You are wanting the unavailable bitches. Hard to swallow? The real issue for you is not the fact that she dissed you when you were the nice guy, but rather the fact of why do you want the girl who disses you?

 

[ABrokenMan]

It's not "enjoyment" when someone remains in an abusive relationship.
To suggest that is absurd.
I've remained in a relationship where I was abused - emotionally, not physically.
Why did I put up with it? Because it was familiar. Because my self worth had eroded away by previous failures. Because being with someone was more important than being completely alone with no one else for a long period of time. Most of all, because I had been convinced by the outcome of circumstances past that what i had right then was the best i could ever hope for.

It takes a LONG time to be able to see outside of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). It is a painful, soul wrenching process that only you can take on.

There are some armchair psychologists on here who come across as know it alls, judgmental folks who think the answer to another's problems are simple, whisked away with platitudes and a 'suck it up' retort. Not everyone can achieve the same result as you, the happy / peppy folks who profess to have all the answers for a deeply depressed and hurting soul. 'Tis best to listen, and offer support. If you cannot do that, do not post.

 

[Regumika]

As someone pointed out, this experiment applies to both men and women. It might be a little more focused on females because more females than males claim the inside is what matters. Sure, there are women who say looks definitely matter and there are also men that say looks don't matter. I know there are people on both sides, that's not the point. The point is - where is the majority?

For those who say "this is just one girl." You basically just told me that you have zero observation skills. Again, the disclaimer is - yes, there are people on both sides for both genders, but where is the majority? What is the typical/natural behavior?

 

[TheWalkingDead]

As someone pointed out, this experiment applies to both men and women. It might be a little more focused on females because more females than males claim the inside is what matters. Sure, there are women who say looks definitely matter and there are also men that say looks don't matter. I know there are people on both sides, that's not the point. The point is - where is the majority?

For those who say "this is just one girl." You basically just told me that you have zero observation skills. Again, the disclaimer is - yes, there are people on both sides for both genders, but where is the majority? What is the typical/natural behavior?

Yes there are plenty of blogs around describing this kind of experiment. One I recall was about how low men will go just for the sake of a pretty face, with a fake profle of a cute girl who was an illiterate, racist, offensive idiot and got loads of messages etc. I did a similar experiment with a male model picture, with a very offensive personality (and therefore soothed my conscience about anyone who would message such a racist moron) but the same principle seemed to hold, ie a pretty picture gets messages regardless of the obnoxious nature of the personality,

What is the majority/typical behaviour, I suppose that is an ananswerable question, it could be quantified with a properly controlled study with huge numbers to promote validity, but that's going to be pretty impossible, so a lot of this will be hearsay and opinion.

Such sites work for some people some of the time, and don't work for a lot of people most of the time, is the best way I have of putting it I think!

 

[Batman55]

For those who say "this is just one girl." You basically just told me that you have zero observation skills. Again, the disclaimer is - yes, there are people on both sides for both genders, but where is the majority? What is the typical/natural behavior?

The typical/natural behavior is precisely what we don't want it to be. The reality is always that way, isn't it? Doesn't superficiality win the vast majority of the time? Doesn't basic observation of day-to-day life support that.. no controlled studies needed?

 

[TheWalkingDead]

The problem is even psychologists etc disagree.

Some psychologists suggest online dating is problematic because attraction can build through attachment and personality, it isn't all about first impressions.

Others suggest things like Tinder are great because unless there is no instant physical attraction there's no point meeting someone. But I have heard a lot of people say things like "I didn't find my husband attractive at first but he just grew on me and then I was smitten" so that's clearly a ridiculously superficial position to take and means potentially amazing matches are dismissed in a millisecond like an unwanted pair of shoes.

The problem is photos and profiles are 2 dimensional and do not present other 3D information that is picked up by other senses and other interactions.

The following may be an interesting read though very long and scientific

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...074a18d7a068b/1399172195863/PSPI2012Final.pdf

I personally find the the idea of people "reviewing" dates like netflix very chilling. One person might be unattractive to 99% of people, but the magic match for one person, but if they have been reviewed negatively by everyone else what chance would they stand....

 

[Regumika]

"I didn't find my husband attractive at first but he just grew on me and then I was smitten" so that's clearly a ridiculously superficial position to take and means potentially amazing matches are dismissed in a millisecond like an unwanted pair of shoes.

We have also heard "I never thought I would marry someone like him."

Now, I can argue the first quote with "is she talking about physical appearance?" which I am sure she is since that's what this thread is about. Though what could have happened was that maybe He was a 5 or 6 out of 10 to her, like at the boarder. A person's personality can raise their attractiveness by a few levels, sure, but in the end I don't think anyone can say "appearance doesn't matter at all."

Okay, let me argue with myself, what about the situations where after 10 years with your spouse, they get into a tragic accident and is now disfigured? Would that make you stop loving them? No, it wouldn't. However, it would probably not be the same if you never met that same person, they got into an accident, became disfigured, THEN met you - You would probably receive them differently.

The thing is that there are scenarios where is just impossible to test because of human brain bias. If the brain knew all options and conditions beforehand, it would make completely different decisions than when it is exposed to limited information. Is ignorance bliss?

 

[Solivagant]

The only reason someone stays in an abusive relationship is if they actually enjoy the abuse.

I read the following today, and it reminded me of the posts about abusive relationships in this thread.

'At first it’s wonderful. They take on all your positive traits during the courtship cycle. I believe in honesty, kindness and compassion. So he became virtuous, a person of complete integrity. Whatever your noblest traits are, they pinpoint those strengths and project them. You begin to think, "They are exactly the same as me! We are so like-minded! A match made in heaven!"

But overtime they can’t keep up with the charade. When they know they finally have you, they no longer feel obliged to reciprocate basic respect or thought. When he verbally abused me, broke my belongings or smashed my car window out of irrational anger, he would never apologize on the grounds that I was too needy for expecting one and it put unfair pressure on him to do so.

Their fear of facing guilt is more important than the feelings of those they hurt.

They slowly reveal their true colors: the virtuous man I once knew became disrespectful, emotionally unavailable, bitter, hateful and self-absorbed. On the rare occasions he had no choice but to apologize for his behavior, he would always blame it on his depression. So my weak boundaries meant that I would take his depression onto my own shoulders. I defended all of his behavior and tried to lift the depression to find the man I loved again.

As you are sucked into sacrificing your own needs to help them, they begin to project their own behavior onto you:

You always manage to ruin their good moods.
They can never please you.
They don’t trust you.
You always play the victim.

And you begin to wonder how you could be so demanding and energy consuming? How could you act like the victim when they are in so much pain? You question yourself, change yourself. Then when that isn’t enough, you belittle yourself, degrade yourself and humiliate yourself. You begin to accept that you will never get an apology for the latest form of abuse, because maybe it was your fault that it happened.

You begin to chase them.

You lose your self-esteem, you stop talking to family and friends. You don’t believe you are a good enough. You constantly justify the poison and remain oblivious to it as it slowly seeps into your being.'

 

[greenapple271]

Hitch1983, your picture made my heart beat faster.

 

[LonelyInAtl]

I did the same thing and had exactly the same results. Same profile, likes, dislikes, income, etc. The profile with the real me had very view views, and no replies to messages. The fake profile had responses to almost ALL messages, tons of views, and even some emails initiated by someone else to me. Obviously, looks do matter and are the very first thing taken into account when evaluating a potential mate. If anyone says it's not, they are full of it.

And for those of us who are <=3 on the infamous 1-10 scale, we're pretty screwed.

---

more females than males claim the inside is what matters. Sure, there are women who say looks definitely matter and there are also men that say looks don't matter.

Anyone who says physical attractiveness doesn't matter is lying, plain and simple, IMHO.

 

[there is no hope]

Anyone who says physical attractiveness doesn't matter is lying, plain and simple, IMHO.

So true.

Like it or not, dating is the realm of the superficial. It's kind of funny though, the people who insist on talking about inner beauty are often the most judgemental about personality traits.
To me "personality" is every bit as superficial as appearances anyway, but a lot of people either don't understand that or don't like being called out.

That said, men often wildly miss the mark on just what superficial traits a man needs.
To be honest I don't see a great difference between the two men posted in OP, except the shirtless man inspires me to punch his face. As far as I can tell, the shirted man is fine appearance-wise.

My own experience with online dating is that I got sporadic profile views, but some positive feedback from women. I was attractive enough for a woman to bother responding, so at least I have that much going for me.
Ultimately word of mouth spreads though, especially on sites like OKC and PoF which are troll magnets. After getting trolled twice with malicious comments and getting nowhere, I figured the irritation was not worth what I was getting out of the experience, which was largely nothing. The pay sites use outright scams and I vowed never to spend money on a dating site unless I was really ready to meet someone (which is almost certainly never going to happen).

I have no idea how actual relationships work, but from what I understand most of them don't, and a lot of men are stuck grasping at shadows they can never attain. I've seen too many divorced and broken men realize they had nothing all along, men desperately trying to stay with a woman who is clearly using him for money because they dread being alone, and far fewer men who are truly happy with their lot in life. Those who are happy tend to be those who would gladly sleep with another man's wife, and most women will gladly go with those men regardless of any vows they may have made. That is the new reality, and it's not going to get any better any time soon.

I think it is understated how much social reform in the last 100 years has changed the nature of male-female relationships. Even if you don't subscribe to deliberate social engineering, changes to technology and transportation are disincentives for a woman to care much about a man at all, when a better man is available and willing to be shared with multiple women. Social engineering is just accelerating this process and guiding it in a preferred direction, and making sure the end result does not go along a path that disrupts hierarchical society. (The correct solution to the problem would be for everyone to be asexual, and for new generations to be constructed through bio-engineering rather than through crude eugenics-inspired artificial insemination and breeder women; for obvious reasons, the powers that be want a eugenics-inspired system to remain in place perpetually, because the correct solution could and should put an end to hierarchical society forever, and that is why it won't happen even though it could and should be done within a few generations.)

 

[ardour]

Anyone who says physical attractiveness doesn't matter is lying, plain and simple, IMHO.

So true.

Like it or not, dating is the realm of the superficial.

It isn't superficial to want a partner you're attracted to physically (without necessarily prioritizing it). Would you date someone you had zero attraction to? Then it's not fair to expect the opposite sex to forgo that either.

The rest of the comment reads very MRAish; women using men as utility figures etc. Been down that road and it leads nowhere good.

 

[LonelyInAtl]

Anyone who says physical attractiveness doesn't matter is lying, plain and simple, IMHO.

So true.

Like it or not, dating is the realm of the superficial.

It isn't superficial to want a partner you're attracted to physically (without necessarily prioritizing it). Would you date someone you had zero attraction to? Then it's not fair to expect the opposite sex to forgo that either.

Never said it wouldn't be fair. It just puts those of us who are beauty-challenged at a serious disadvantage. I just had someone that I had been talking to for a few weeks tell me she loved what I am inside but just wasn't attracted to me physically. She tried to get past it, but just couldn't. This coming 2 days before we were supposed to meet. I wish she had just been honest up front instead of stringing me along while I developed strong feelings for her.

Not the first time I've been told that, either.

 

[there is no hope]

It isn't superficial to want a partner you're attracted to physically (without necessarily prioritizing it). Would you date someone you had zero attraction to? Then it's not fair to expect the opposite sex to forgo that either.

I didn't say anything about fairness.
No I wouldn't go out with someone if I knew there was nothing there, but I owe it to myself to understand why I'm making those decisions, instead of just blindly accepting my instincts.

The rest of the comment reads very MRAish; women using men as utility figures etc. Been down that road and it leads nowhere good.

Sounds like you just make a lot of leaps in assumption, if we're going to play armchair psychology. I'm going to guess you didn't actually try to understand, just superimposed your own assumptions about how the world should work.

 

[Batman55]

Anyone who says physical attractiveness doesn't matter is lying, plain and simple, IMHO.

It does matter. But not half as much as you folks are saying, time and time again, in constant agreement with each other.

This is after all supposed to be a supportive kind of site, not an echo chamber for negative thinking (even IF you say it's rooted in reality.)

It would be delusion to say looks don't matter. But that's not what we're saying.