The answer is always change.

[blak000]

My apologies to Seraphim. I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Guest, if you still want to discuss the matter, I'd be happy to do it through PM's. I'm not sure whether or not Seraphim wants to read about a philosophical discussion on change.

 

[Princess Cleocatra]

Exactly!!! I agree with LL on this one..

It'd be nice if the changes came by our own doing, but this is often not the case...

People do change over time. But it's usually because something forces you to change.

 

[Skorian]

I think that people can change based upon many different factors. Though I think people often tend to process information the same. We have some characteristics and traits we can't change and some that we can. It all really just depends on what it is. I guess you won't know which catagory something fits in though till you try.

My apologies to Seraphim. I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Guest, if you still want to discuss the matter, I'd be happy to do it through PM's. I'm not sure whether or not Seraphim wants to read about a philosophical discussion on change.

There really isn't any such thing as hijacking here. People run all over the place. It's anarchy I tell you, sheer anarchy!!

Oh the inhumanity.

 

[toxic-tears]

for me answers are self indulging thing yet painfull. knowing the facts is self releif but sometimes if could be self disturbance.. its just crazy...

 

[armor4sleepPA]

makes you wonder about the truth behind "ignorance is blyss".... now I'm thinking about the Matrix, and whether or not I'd want to know I was just a battery....

 

[Skorian]

makes you wonder about the truth behind "ignorance is blyss".... now I'm thinking about the Matrix, and whether or not I'd want to know I was just a battery....

I would want to know myself.

 

[armor4sleepPA]

Skorian,

Think about this in the context of our social and occupational relationships. Sometimes we can pleasently work with someone, basically because we know very little of their outside life. Or some acquaintances may be enjoyable to talk with, however few personal details we know about them. This can all change, though, when we see through them for what they really are.

I have 200 students this year, and I learn much about their personal lives through class discussions and what they write. Sometimes I hate hearing too much information, because I can't help but have that taint my image of them. Students I thought were pretty nice write/discuss illegal and dispicable activities they're involved with, and it's hard to see them in the same light. I know it's judgemental, but as humans, we're a judging and evaluative species.

Often, I'd rather just not know too much, than to ruin the facade that most people are decent. As long as they don't bring their dark activities too close to me, I don't need to know they're involved with them.

 

[Skorian]

Hmmm, but what is really so wrong that you can't hear reality? How can you deal with what you don't even know? Why not accept most people and move on from there? Especially where kids are involved. What can they have done that is so horrible? I look at it totally differently.

I think alot of it is that you fear being judged and so judge others because you yourself feel as if you cannot be accepted. So many things work this way. Maybe you feel that accepting them means you condone something that really isn't very good. Maybe you can’t see why something really is bad. Often it's peoples motives and the root behind that motive. Not even what people do that is bad. Or maybe it's in how you fail to see why people often act out in the ways that they do. Most of us are not in as much control of our lives and things as we would like to believe. People will do what they know and what they see. A miss behaving kid usually leads at some point to a miss behaving adult. If we could see everything, maybe we could actually help each other and get to the bottom of problems. Rather then just having to live with them.

I would say that we make a choice to judge. Also, all things. Every single thing we judge by comparison and contrast. We can't even distinguish between one thing and the next without this. It's sort of ying and yang in a way. The problem with judging is usually we do so on to little information to even make a judgment that isn't faulty. We judge based upon assumptions rather then facts. This is why our court system is set up the way it is to try to remove these assumptions.

I think if everyone had more empathy for one another a great many problems in the world would just wash away.

Oh, I should also say that change just for the sake of change I think is dangerous. I think it's better to try to do what works and if something isn't broken then there is little need to change it. I guess it depends on whether it's mearly a cosmetic change or if there are consequences garnered by some change.

 

[armor4sleepPA]

I don't have acceptance issues, and I'm not out to judge. Ever read "The Great Gatsby"? In the first few pages, Nick Carroway establishes his reliability as a narrator, in that he reserves judgement, due to the fact that others didn't have the advantages that he had growing up. However, he loathed when people would confide in him about things that would inevitably change his opinion of them. He didn't judge, but eventually, his tolerance had a limit. That's more of where I'm coming from. There is also a professional distance that must be kept between adult teachers and minor students; the more I know, the more dangerous it can be. I also have a professional and legal obligation as a designated reporter to immediately dislcose any such behavior to children's services. Of course, we teachers use a sort of filter, and often times turn a blind ear to behaviors that aren't necessarily self destructive. I.E., even though we're supposed to immediately phone a parent to inform them we have discovered their child is pregnant, I won't do that right away, as I want the kid to learn and grow from the experience, and tell their parents on their own.

I am disappointed that you see me as such a judging, uncaring, ruthless person. While you're entitled to your opinion, and it doesn't overly concern me, it is a shame that you incorrectly infer so much about me based on something I've typed. Talk about judging blindly...

 

[Skorian]

I don't have acceptance issues, and I'm not out to judge. Ever read "The Great Gatsby"? In the first few pages, Nick Carroway establishes his reliability as a narrator, in that he reserves judgement, due to the fact that others didn't have the advantages that he had growing up. However, he loathed when people would confide in him about things that would inevitably change his opinion of them. He didn't judge, but eventually, his tolerance had a limit. That's more of where I'm coming from. There is also a professional distance that must be kept between adult teachers and minor students; the more I know, the more dangerous it can be. I also have a professional and legal obligation as a designated reporter to immediately dislcose any such behavior to children's services. Of course, we teachers use a sort of filter, and often times turn a blind ear to behaviors that aren't necessarily self destructive. I.E., even though we're supposed to immediately phone a parent to inform them we have discovered their child is pregnant, I won't do that right away, as I want the kid to learn and grow from the experience, and tell their parents on their own.

I am disappointed that you see me as such a judging, uncaring, ruthless person. While you're entitled to your opinion, and it doesn't overly concern me, it is a shame that you incorrectly infer so much about me based on something I've typed. Talk about judging blindly...

Well for one I am not sure what your refering to as far as kids go. And yes in regards to your proximaty to children I can understand your caution. I can't say what it was like 100 years ago, but it seems as if today perhaps people have alot more problems in regards to relating to others in a healthy way. Perhaps it is because our lifestyles are so isolating and we so often find ourselves dealing with those outside our peer groups. Where as people generally were surrounded by people they knew over 100 years ago. As in grew up around all their lives. Today we are constantly surrounded by near total strangers. Something that would be an oddity today with the ability to travel as freely as we do now.

For another I don't think you understand what I mean when I say judgemental. I never judged you at all. I don't even fully know what your saying. I am just mearly stating what I see here and now. What I think. Only what I think isn't really even in reference to you. I should watch my use of you... it can be a powerful term. I was mearly talking in an abstract sort of sense. In a way as if speaking to myself, if that makes sense. I was to lazy to change the sentence structure around.

 

[armor4sleepPA]

Okay... I'm glad you saw the "you" use as an issue; I thought you were blaming me individually for such behaviors. I gotcha... no worries. That's why I was a bit defensive.

A4S

 

[Skorian]

Okay... I'm glad you saw the "you" use as an issue; I thought you were blaming me individually for such behaviors. I gotcha... no worries. That's why I was a bit defensive.

A4S

I will point out though that you so quickly felt judged. Without even having all the facts or details of what was being said. Which is kinda what I was saying about how we are too judgemental. And I will stress that many times if we are quick to feel judged that comes about because we are so quick to judge. It's hard to explain. Part of it is that if one judges what others say quickly and feel judged. It's mearly a way of thinking that does not discriminated between it's focus. It's often said that those of too like a mind, put into the same room for long will drive each other up the wall. This is because it's easier to see in others what we don't like in ourselves then it is to see in ourself. Communication is rarely perfect and if people are to focused on it being perfect then not much will be said. Leading to greater missunderstandings rather then lesser ones. Since life can not be summed up in a mear sentence or paragraph.

There was this part in an more modern adaptation of "King Arthur" (I would have to go dig it out to give it's exact name). Where one of the characters simply started blurting things out and simply stated something to the effect that. "He was mearly saying what many people were already thinking". Which makes me think many things. One of which is: why must we hold so tightly to our own identities as individuals that we feel attacked so easily? We are so simular and have so much in common in so many ways. For all our differences we are more alike then different really. Only once you get to close to the problem (so close that our noses are rubbing in it) it becomes hard to see a great many things.

There came a time a few years back looking at how some people picked on me and I came to the realization that not everyone has the same motive for pushing on others. Some it is out of spit and malice and a real desire to do harm. Other's mearly want to break you out of your shell and don't know how, so they do what will get the biggest possible reaction. Only it's not intended for the same thing. It became hard for me to tell the difference though as a child because my own father did what he did to do harm. So it was very easy to see all things pointed at ruffling my feathers to be the same thing. Not seeing the vast distinction. Because of how I choose to look at it. Because I could only see what I was looking for. I have enough memory still now to look back and realize that many people saw my unhappyness and were only trying to understand the problem. As not much else got any reaction, insulting me was how they tried to reach out and find some common ground. Only I didn't see things in the same way as they did. Almost all I understood were insults. So yes, I reacted to them. Of course I was in my own trap as what they did had the same results as all other such simular forms.

Maybe I can explain it this way. I have a brother who worked with severly troubled kids for a couple years. About all they understand is punishment. Not much else really reaches them. So people punish them. Only it doesn't teach them anything they don't already know. Which never solves the real underlying problems. Bad behavior followed by punishment is a very dangerous trap to fall into for anyone. Something many people may never get out of. Sadly most of those kids are likely to end up in prison at some point and my brother disliked the fact that they did so little to stop that from happening. A prison system that will just teach them more of what they already know sadly. He doesn't work with them anymore as one of the bigger kids finally really hurt him.

Instead of taking things personally and being so defensive. Perhaps try to work on your communication skills and better recognize your own personal assumptions for what they really are. Since often breakdown's in communication really are usually just missunderstandings. By being defensive you get yourself caught in a loop that will only lead to greater missunderstandings.

 

[Darkest Seraphim]

I know people can change. I see it right before my eyes everyday. My question is, why do they change? Why do we have to? It's one hting to change with maturity, To become an adult, to have responsibilities and impact your surroundings. Its one thing to change because you want to. To redeem yourself for your wrong doings and turn over a new leaf. But, what about changing to survive? changing because you have to or else the world will swallow you whole. Changing because you arent desireable the way you are now, and need to change to get what you need out of life. It is possible that i may be "exactly what people are looking for" that i have to see for myself. Digging myself out of that hole of social ineptitude is going to be a daunting task. But, I fear that after ive broken into the rhelm of social activity ill fall into the same bracket as eveyrone else and become a part of some big fake game everyone plays in order to pretend like things make sense to them. Like these rules have to apply to everything and eveyrone that walks the planet that they live in. It sickens me to no end. But the sad thing is, eveyrone has to be a player to be a part of the big game. So brekaing the rules seems to be out of question..... unless im missing somehting here.

 

[Skorian]

It's that currently much of the way society is structured seems to be that that structure is created and people are forced to mold into it. Rather then society molding to fit people. I think everyone has the choice to choose to mold or not mold. I think your right to want to resist what seems inhuman. It will come to a point where enough people decide to buck the system that our culture will have to change to allow for greater variety. Allowing us the right to more freely choose. Not just as individuals, but as communities. But more then the right to choose, to have the right to not be told what to choose when there is no reason for it. Even if it's not perfectly efficient.

Much of what I personally see came about in the last few decades with the idea of mass production. We started applying it to everything. Which in some situations works great, but I think where people are more concerned it feels false and impersonal. People feel discontent with the idea of being a cog in a wheel that is just pumped out. We are not some factory produced piece that will be just like some other piece. Like for example Walmart and how every store you walk in is about the same. Same uniforms. Simular layouts and styles. People are supposed to say the same things. It eats away at our ability to be unique and give our lives meaning. No one want's to be like the axel in their car. We want to do things because we want to, not because we have to. Not because some ding bat who is no better or worse then ourselves says it's what should be done. So yes, it comes down to wanting freedom, something that is slowly being striped from us by corporations to large in size. By everything starting to become the same. What freedom is there in reading a script over a radio broadcast? Making phone calls to consumers in the way we are told to do it? Without freedom people will feel discontent and that I think is really what is bothering you is lack of freedom. We are all locked into to large of systems to feel like we matter and are of real significance. Which even if we aren't significant. Who wants to actually "feel" that we aren't? I don't think anyone does. We all want to be able to affect our environment. Just like many gamers feel insignificant in games where they are just a character in a world they really can't affect. To change this everyone needs to empower local governments and take power away from the larger forms of government.

 

[Darkest Seraphim]

I agree. I guess i cant save myself in this life from it. The best thing i can do is perhaps bring some of me along for the ride and hope the things i consider values rub off on someone out there with an open mind. If im ever fortunate enough to have children i hope they are good people whome i can teach to be indeviduals in a world that may hold them back.

Changing now is the task ahead... and at 25 i dont think its gonna be easy at all.

 

[Guest]

I know people can change. I see it right before my eyes everyday. My question is, why do they change? Why do we have to? It's one hting to change with maturity, To become an adult, to have responsibilities and impact your surroundings. Its one thing to change because you want to. To redeem yourself for your wrong doings and turn over a new leaf. But, what about changing to survive? changing because you have to or else the world will swallow you whole. Changing because you arent desireable the way you are now, and need to change to get what you need out of life. It is possible that i may be "exactly what people are looking for" that i have to see for myself. Digging myself out of that hole of social ineptitude is going to be a daunting task. But, I fear that after ive broken into the rhelm of social activity ill fall into the same bracket as eveyrone else and become a part of some big fake game everyone plays in order to pretend like things make sense to them. Like these rules have to apply to everything and eveyrone that walks the planet that they live in. It sickens me to no end. But the sad thing is, eveyrone has to be a player to be a part of the big game. So brekaing the rules seems to be out of question..... unless im missing somehting here.

As to why we have to change (in the sense of adapt)... we have to "change"/adapt because that's how the world works... survival of the fittest, evolution (Charles Darwin). If you don't adapt = you don't pass your genes on to the next generation = you cease to exist in this world after you die (you are not immortalized in this world, if you want to put it that way)

But in terms of you being yourself... you can't change that (mabye to a small degree)... but it doesn't matter, what I'm geting at, is that you didn't find the right person yet, OR more likely you're looking in the wrong place for these people.

 

[armor4sleepPA]

I find it interesting how so many people are against big government and national identity. A strong nation is a defense against foreign influence and aggression. Molding people to fit into the society of which they're a part isn't a bad thing; it's just basic socialization. We do it every day in schools; teaching kids our rules, reinforcing adherence to said rules, and issuing negative sanctions to those who are not in compliance. Modeling proper, productive behavior as dictated by societal standards prepares the next generation to carry on in our footsteps, and maintain our place in society and our unique cultural identity.

Nothing is wrong with free thinking; in fact, so doing often allows us to progress as a society. However, aggressively speaking out against the government only tears apart the strength we find in unity. Thinkers and philosophical contributers would do well to use their intelligence to support and better the government, rather than criticizing it and seeking it's detriment.

People who have served in the armed forces, and have seen the strength that comes from men and women of character and committment joining together in a unified cause, understand what I'm talking about. Government can be a wonderful thing; when I served in the infantry, we were committed to doing our absolute best to defend the life we hold dear, and fighting for those who cannot stand up for themselves. Those who have strength have a moral obligation to help and defend and advocate for those who do not. Might for Right, as Arthur's legend goes...

I used to hate when we'd fight hard to defend those who openly mocked us for our dedication, burned our flag of freedom, and cried out against us as warm criminals. Let them dodge enemy fire, face constant violence, and put their lives on the line only to come home to the jeers of their countrymen who forgot the sacrifice freely given on their own behalf.