White middle-aged men

[ghbarnaby2]

so....I have read that as well. How do you not feel a sense of culture? Most people who are white live in areas where they are the main race or if they do not, like other races, seek out people who look like this. But this still does not explain to me what the definition of "white guilt."

 

[kamya]

We all come from so many different backgrounds and we are all spread out. There is no white culture. What is white music? White food? White clothes? White language/slang? Maybe it's different in other countries but in the Unites States, specifically, there is no such thing as white culture. We're just a collection of spread out subcultures without much connection to each other. There's no reason for anyone to feel bad because of that though, there just is no such thing as white culture.

 

[LonelyLola]

any man who is aged 35 upwards and his never seen with a woman, people are bound to talk. There is something wrong with him. That's what they will say ! Nothing to do with colour though !

yes there's suspicion around lonely hetero middle-aged men. It can't be that they were just unlucky, that no woman found them attractive enough. There's something *wrong*.

I'm in my 40s, divorced, and was alone because no woman could get past the unattractive exterior to see who I was inside....until recently.

Many women middle aged women are sinle because they are deemed unattractive... It isn't a bias against men, it is a societal issue with what is and what is not attractive.

There is definitely a strange fear in the western world, I know men who have been asked to leave a public park because a mother was uncomfortable, ony t have his daughter (wh had been playing nearby) run up and present herself, shutting the woman up.

I also know in the past a small amount of very loud people can make it seem like the baddies are out to get you. The false reports of daycare satanism led to many interviewers creating false memories in children, and a great witch hunt for evil satan worshipping child molesters went on. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria)

Every awkward teenage boy who wore a trenchcoat was going to shoot up their chool after columbine, and now that there are a million crime dramas on tv, there are always episodes in each one that deal with child molestation. Ad most child molestors are white men. Unfortunately, the numbr of incidents we see on tv is overblown; but the fictional shows make us think and worry.

 

[ghbarnaby2]

We all come from so many different backgrounds and we are all spread out. There is no white culture. What is white music? White food? White clothes? White language/slang? Maybe it's different in other countries but in the Unites States, specifically, there is no such thing as white culture. We're just a collection of spread out subcultures without much connection to each other. There's no reason for anyone to feel bad because of that though, there just is no such thing as white culture.

No culture? You think so? What do you define as culture then? White american culture seems very real to me. There are habits, folkways, mores, all types of social constructs that bind your people together. If it didn't then there would be much more interracial areas rather than self-segregated ones.

also...I found this comic funny as I have asked this question lol:

http://humoncomics.com/horrible-people

 

[ardour]

We all come from so many different backgrounds and we are all spread out. There is no white culture. What is white music? White food? White clothes? White language/slang? Maybe it's different in other countries but in the Unites States, specifically, there is no such thing as white culture. We're just a collection of spread out subcultures without much connection to each other. There's no reason for anyone to feel bad because of that though, there just is no such thing as white culture.

No culture? You think so? What do you define as culture then? White american culture seems very real to me. There are habits, folkways, mores, all types of social constructs that bind your people together. If it didn't then there would be much more interracial areas rather than self-segregated ones.

also...I found this comic funny as I have asked this question lol:

http://humoncomics.com/horrible-people

There might be habits and social mores, but they don't necessarily "bind people together". There's very little in the way of shared values left in western societies that extend beyond basic respect for rule of law, other people's freedom and property.

 

[ilios]

Potentially dangerous. Potential rapist, stalker, pedo; Having been unable to satisfy his desires through healthy avenues, they manifest themselves in ugly perverted ways.


I belive that since we live in a society who tries to teach females how to avoid getting raped, instead of teaching people not to ******* rape people.
Teaching females to avoid being raped births fear, and sadly that fear is projected to men who are alone and "seem" dangerous.. or something

 

[RB46]

I think there are many minority groups who are WAAAAAAAYYYYYYY more negatively viewed than white, middle-aged men and that if you are a white middle aged man it would be worth considering what life would be like if you were something other than what you are.

---

Perhaps you would be better off as a black teenager? Or a young Korean girl? I really don't understand your complaint.

 

[kamya]

I belive that since we live in a society who tries to teach females how to avoid getting raped, instead of teaching people not to ******* rape people.
Teaching females to avoid being raped births fear, and sadly that fear is projected to men who are alone and "seem" dangerous.. or something

Why do we need to teach people not to rape? Everyone knows not to rape, just like everyone knows you shouldn't murder people. Bad people are going to do bad things.

Perhaps you would be better off as a black teenager? Or a young Korean girl? I really don't understand your complaint.

I would take being a Korean girl, or any kind of girl, any day. (not because I think it's any easier, it would just be a better fit for me) This thread isn't saying anything about what problems other groups have, or trying to compare the two. It shows a pretty big lack of empathy to just assume that someone else's problems are inferior. Experience is subjective. Just like people here can be forever alone, in a relationship, or be surrounded by kids and family, and still feel lonely. We all feel the loneliness that brought us to the forum. No one tries to compare or one up their loneliness to the rest of the members of the forum because it would be ignorant and stupid.

 

[ghbarnaby2]

why wouldn't you choose to be a black teenager? is there something wrong with that choice?

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

The whole idea that older men are more likely to be rapists and child molesters is uncomfortable.

Young teenagers can be rapists, if they are raised with the wrong values.

 

[Badjedidude]

Why do we need to teach people not to rape? Everyone knows not to rape, just like everyone knows you shouldn't murder people. Bad people are going to do bad things.

Yeeeaaaah, it's not that black-and-white.

Not all rape is a sex-pervert-evil-lecher-guy preying upon the women he runs across. There are so many other situations in which rape occurs... sometimes the lines can be blurred. That's one of the reasons we have the "NO MEANS NO," movement, which tells men that if a woman says "no," ONE TIME, that the deal's off. In the past, a woman might have said "no" and the guy would continue and possibly eventually "convince" her to have sex with him even though she'd said no earlier. It's entirely possible that men could rape a woman and not understand that they're raping her; or to make a mistake, or to sleep with a girl younger than the law allows, which then becomes labelled as "rape." Maybe he thinks that because he's married, a woman has to perform her marital duties to him. Does that make him a bad guy? Or just an ignorant guy who hasn't considered the situation?

Don't get caught up in these hypotheticals too much, though. My point here is that it's not so simple an issue.

Teaching men not to rape seems like it shouldn't be necessary, but really it's a consciousness-raiser more than it's about actually informing men.

It's designed to make them stop and think about their actions, no matter what situation they find themselves in.

If this prevents even ONE rape (of any type, situation, etc)... then it's ultimately worth it.

 

[kamya]

I get what you are saying about it being more about being a "consciousness-raiser" and I'm sure it helps the cause at least a little bit but I just kind of assume that if you can't be compassionate enough or have enough empathy to look a a situation and realize that what you are doing is wrong, then yeah, you probably are a bad person.

 

[ghbarnaby2]

what about women who rape?

 

[Bob Arctor]

I read about a gang of women rapists in Zimbabwe.

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. . . by which I mean a gang of women who were raping men, just to clarify.

 

[Badjedidude]

I get what you are saying about it being more about being a "consciousness-raiser" and I'm sure it helps the cause at least a little bit but I just kind of assume that if you can't be compassionate enough or have enough empathy to look a a situation and realize that what you are doing is wrong, then yeah, you probably are a bad person.

See, that's my point. It's not always clear that it's rape. The word rape carries such connotations of aggressive, deliberate action that people forget that lots of other situations fall into the classification of rape. How about when a man and woman are both drunk and have sex... and then they both realize in the morning that they shouldn't have had sex and wouldn't have wanted to while sober. Is that rape? Is the guy a bad guy? He was drunk; the girl was too. So what is this situation?

See my point?

For some guys, it might be harder to understand that sort of situation without having had their consciousness raised by some of the anti-rape campaigns out there. I don't think that makes them bad people. Ignorant, maybe.

Understand -- I'm not excusing anyone or implying that rape isn't a horrible thing. Of course it is.

But I see no problem with anti-rape campaigns spreading the word; as long as their message doesn't label all men as rapists. I ******* hate that.

 

[ghbarnaby2]

I know women in Zimbabwe!!!! They are rather forceful...

 

[ardour]

The whole idea that older men are more likely to be rapists and child molesters is uncomfortable.

Young teenagers can be rapists, if they are raised with the wrong values.

The 'logic' behind the stereotype goes that lonely men after years of failure and rejection, end up channelling their frustration through violent and sometimes even perverse ways. That or they're alone because they have always been perverts.

I am in no way shape or form making any excuse for such behaviour, and I believe that stereotype is unfair and inaccurate.

However it is there and it is one truly undebatable way in which being single and older is worse for men. So much more so for men who have never been in a relationship.

---

See, that's my point. It's not always clear that it's rape. The word rape carries such connotations of aggressive, deliberate action that people forget that lots of other situations fall into the classification of rape. How about when a man and woman are both drunk and have sex... and then they both realize in the morning that they shouldn't have had sex and wouldn't have wanted to while sober. Is that rape? Is the guy a bad guy? He was drunk; the girl was too. So what is this situation?

Anti-rape campaigns aren't going to clarify that situation. At best they might make people think beforehand... maybe.

We understand that awareness needed to be raised around issues of intoxication where consent can't be given, but men aren't as stupid as you're implying. Any man who conciously uses coercion ("convincing her") for example is a low-life

 

[RB46]

I belive that since we live in a society who tries to teach females how to avoid getting raped, instead of teaching people not to ******* rape people.
Teaching females to avoid being raped births fear, and sadly that fear is projected to men who are alone and "seem" dangerous.. or something

Why do we need to teach people not to rape? Everyone knows not to rape, just like everyone knows you shouldn't murder people. Bad people are going to do bad things.

Perhaps you would be better off as a black teenager? Or a young Korean girl? I really don't understand your complaint.

I would take being a Korean girl, or any kind of girl, any day. (not because I think it's any easier, it would just be a better fit for me) This thread isn't saying anything about what problems other groups have, or trying to compare the two. It shows a pretty big lack of empathy to just assume that someone else's problems are inferior. Experience is subjective. Just like people here can be forever alone, in a relationship, or be surrounded by kids and family, and still feel lonely. We all feel the loneliness that brought us to the forum. No one tries to compare or one up their loneliness to the rest of the members of the forum because it would be ignorant and stupid.

The OP does actually ask us to compare different groups by claiming, in the opening line of the OP, that his particular group is viewed worse than all others. I do not wish to give the impression that OP's problems are inferior to others. At the same time I flat refuse to accept that he faces harder and more difficult prejudice than others because he is from the white middle aged male group. We all face prejudice from others. I just don't believe that white middle aged men have it worst of all. That is quite clearly what the OP is claiming.

 

[Badjedidude]

Anti-rape campaigns aren't going to clarify that situation. At best they might make people think beforehand... maybe.

We understand that awareness needed to be raised around issues of intoxication where consent can't be given, but men aren't as stupid as you're implying. Any man who conciously uses coercion ("convincing her") for example is a low-life

Like I said, if there's the possibility that it makes someone think beforehand, then it's an entirely worthwhile endeavor. And one that's more likely to succeed than trying to overhaul society itself.

Also, I did warn you not to get tied up in my hypothetical examples.

Many men might not see it as coercion, but could view it as "trying to show love," or "being sweet," or any other similar reason. Or he might believe that even if she said, "no," the first time -- once she agrees, it's consensual. Keep in mind that not many men are willingly going to admit that they're coercing someone into having sex with them. I don't think that necessarily makes them low-lifes or bad guys. At what point does sincerely and successfully convincing a woman to have sex with him become manipulative, conscious coercion?

There are grey areas here.

I'd argue that not many men OR women could answer that question at a gut level, or if suddenly thrust into the situation. Some questions require foresight and thought; I think everyone should have a chance to sit down and think about these sorts of issues before they ever potentially occur.

 

[ardour]

(outside topic)

Like I said, if there's the possibility that it makes someone think beforehand, then it's an entirely worthwhile endeavor.

Agreed, there is some anti-male fallout to these campaigns but they are necessary for if nothing else to raise (mostly younger) women's awareness around rights, dangers of alcohol, date-rape drugs etc.

Many men might not see it as coercion, but could view it as "trying to show love," or "being sweet," or any other similar reason. Or he might believe that even if she said, "no," the first time -- once she agrees, it's consensual. Keep in mind that not many men are willingly going to admit that they're coercing someone into having sex with them. I don't think that necessarily makes them low-lifes or bad guys. At what point does sincerely and successfully convincing a woman to have sex with him become manipulative, conscious coercion?

There is something manipulative about having to convince someone to do something they initially would rather not. If someone needs that kind of "convincing" there's a problem. If you're primary concern is not with your own gf/wife's feelings and pleasure then there's a problem.

Something bugs me about it as well... I think a man trying to do that is just shameless.