Beginning to feel suicidal

[Unsigned]

If you'd stood up for yourself at 15/16/17 you would probably have been punished, not them.

And now not even a question.
I'd be in prison...

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

See the status thing, is more for me, than it is for women. It's to reassure me that I have at least normal amounts of potential and competence, and that I can work at something that advances me in life, instead of having so little potential and competence that I can't do anything that would advance me, and that all I'm good for is servitude to others, who were born with enough of those things to live for themselves. Working to advance my material quality of life, and position in life, to make my life better, was always the point of working to me. Without that, I feel like I'd be working to get nowhere, to be someone I don't want to be, and to live a life I hate, to confirm every insult I've ever received and every self-doubt I've ever had myself. Therefore if that's my future, it makes me wonder if my life is worth living, and it's making me lean towards "no".

Being in an OK job would give me a confidence boost, that might translate to attraction or at least help with it. However, being in menial/service work, would level my confidence, since it would mean I have no potential, competence, and am fit only to be submissive to others. The ground where my confidence should be, would be poisoned so nothing could ever grow there again. Feeling like that's what I am would cause me to hate myself for feeling like a loser, like I must be genetically inferior and limited, not to mention the shitty material quality of life I'd be forced to live. I've always hated being forced to actively work on getting nowhere. And I'd hate to think that's all I'm capable of, and that's all I have to look forward to.

I don't see how I can attract someone, if I have no confidence in myself, because I feel trapped in a life I hate, and feeling like I'm forced to be a person I hate being. It would also be hard for me to have interests to talk about under those circumstances either.

It's technically possible for a person to attract a partner while in a low paid job, as you were saying. Heaven only knows how, but it is. For me though, it's not really about attracting a partner, it's about how it would make me feel about myself. And I don't think self-hatred would help me attract a partner.

Every time I've been in a job like that, I looked around me, and without exception, every over-college-age person there was NOT a person I wanted to be like. I NEVER wanted to be that kind of person and that was NEVER what I wanted to do with my life. To think that's what I really am and is all I can be, it really makes me feel lousy about myself.

As far as interests go, it's cool that you have interests that you like. But for me, I'm only truly interested in things that I feel like it's possible for me to get good at them, and ultimately to use as part of my identity, a source of confidence and pride. If the best I can do with it is just OK, it pretty much confirms my fears that I'm mediocre and I feel like the message it sends to the world is "look how much I suck at this thing! I'm a huge loser!" It's always seemed like pretending you can do something, to pretend to be cool when you know you're not. I've always felt that I'd rather say nothing at all to the world, than that. If the best I can do at something is just OK, it's not fun for me, and I'd rather do some more relaxing interest instead. The trouble with those is, they aren't enough to sustain me like they used to be. I can't live for fandoms and video games anymore, it's just not enough.

Hey man, sorry it's been a crazy week, but I didn't want you to feel not replied to.
I find your first paragraph fairly troubling. The idea that a better job, nicer place, bigger car, will make you happier in the long term, is absolute bullshit. It's called "The Hedonic Treadmill", in short it means those things will only make you happy for a short while, before you feel you need an even better job/house/car/whatever. Basically, if you're not happy with yourself sweeping floors, you won't be happy with yourself as the manager. Look at CEOs of large companies; they could easily not work and coast on the billions they earn, but they want bigger paychecks and another yacht etc. Don't fall into that trap, my dude.

If you feel being submissive to others is holding you back, it's time to look at a side project where you could be your own boss, and grow that seed until you're able to do it full time. Again, this doesn't have to be a life dream, it can just be a skill that you attain and are able to charge people money for it. Look at every housewife who learned to do eyelashes and eyebrows from home and are trying to get clients. You would be your own boss, choose your own hours, and at least if you do this while still having a regular job would not encur the risk of going self employed. But beware, even a business owner is beholden to customers, or shareholders at a certain level.

I don't really follow you on this idea that you think it's only worth trying something if you think you will be really good at them. That's just not how anything works. Michael Jordan may have been the greatest basketball player of all time, but he wasn't naturally like that, if he didn't put in the hours that he did, he never would have even made his high school team. We like the things we're good at, and the things that we're good at are the things we put the hours into. If you took 4hrs of French lessons every week for 3 months, you would verifiably be better at French than you are now. You could be in casual conversation with some friends, throw out some basic sentences, and most would be impressed because though you may only know limited French, it's still more than most people in the room. Now apply that to pottery, or archery, or baking, or chess, or literally anything. There are dudes out there who learn 3 chords on an accoustic guitar and get all the women, because most of them are impressed by this. But you don't think it's worth trying anything in case people mock you for only being 'ok' at something? That just doesn't exist, if something is just ok, we don't talk about it.

I think some of us here know humiliation quite well.
For me, it was the experience of being publicly humiliated for 12 straight years of my life.
From the first day of kindergarten until HS graduation.
Why? Because I was a skinny and physically weak male, was used to being bullied my my mother prior to school, and was a prime target for bullies in school. It's the natural order of things. Especially for males. The weak will be bullied.
It's OK though. It made me resilient. Toughened me up. I've faced things alone that would make most guys shrivel into the fetal position and cry like a baby. I will only speak for myself here. At 57...I would LOVE to meet a few of the guys that bullied me in HS. Would LOVE to.
But then...I'd be the bully, and worse, as a adult who "looks young for his age and is in good shape", I would be held responsible for what would happen. It's really not fair. So it was OK for them to physically bully me at 15/16/17, but at 57 I'd be the one who goes to prison?
What a world...

PS:

I was 6'1" and 115 lbs when I graduated HS...

Yeah, it wasn't so much that I needed clarification on the concept of humiliation, it was more asking for context from SkaFish about what humiliation he feels from doing low-paid work.

 

[Unsigned]

Yeah, it wasn't so much that I needed clarification on the concept of humiliation, it was more asking for context from SkaFish about what humiliation he feels from doing low-paid work.

Yeah that's totally different. I think there is no humiliation in any honest type of work.
I went to Staples today and just thought how it is a nice, quite, calm environment there. I thought how maybe my life would be better at this point if I worked in a place like that. Anyhow, 4.5 years to go till 62. Maybe a nice part time job to kep busy in retirement...

 

[TheSkaFish]

Hey man, sorry it's been a crazy week, but I didn't want you to feel not replied to.

That's OK, it happens. Thanks for the thought.

I find your first paragraph fairly troubling. The idea that a better job, nicer place, bigger car, will make you happier in the long term, is absolute bullshit. It's called "The Hedonic Treadmill", in short it means those things will only make you happy for a short while, before you feel you need an even better job/house/car/whatever. Basically, if you're not happy with yourself sweeping floors, you won't be happy with yourself as the manager. Look at CEOs of large companies; they could easily not work and coast on the billions they earn, but they want bigger paychecks and another yacht etc. Don't fall into that trap, my dude.

I'm afraid I have to disagree though. I feel like this "Hedonic Treadmill", which sounds like the theory of diminishing marginal utility, where the 10th pizza slice you eat doesn't seem as good as the first, is true only after a certain point. Below that point though, a better job, nicer place, bigger car, absolutely does make you happier, because it means a meaningful, significant improvement in your quality of life, as well as your sense of competence, progress, and accomplishment. You need to get your life to "functional", and with at least something you can do for fun/for your interests, before you can be "OK", both with your quality of life, and with yourself.

Moving from a mansion to a bigger mansion might not make you happier, but moving from the hood to a normal suburb, absolutely would.

The difference between a floor sweeper and a manager is massive, in terms of quality of life and social status. Hell, the difference between a manager at an unskilled job, and an entry-level job in skilled work of any kind, is massive. And the way people look at you and treat you is massive too, from treating you like an inferior/servant to treating you like an equal/peer. And I imagine the same is true with how you feel about yourself, from being in an environment where no one is winning, there is no means of accomplishing anything or improving your life, and you feel like the fact that you're there is proof that you must be inherently limited/incompetent, to being in an environment where you can accomplish something, you can improve your life, and you can reassure yourself that being there is proof that you must have at least some measure of competence - some ability to learn, retain, and build skills.

If you feel being submissive to others is holding you back, it's time to look at a side project where you could be your own boss, and grow that seed until you're able to do it full time. Again, this doesn't have to be a life dream, it can just be a skill that you attain and are able to charge people money for it. Look at every housewife who learned to do eyelashes and eyebrows from home and are trying to get clients. You would be your own boss, choose your own hours, and at least if you do this while still having a regular job would not encur the risk of going self employed. But beware, even a business owner is beholden to customers, or shareholders at a certain level.

Yeah, I understand that, even business owners aren't really "free". The best you can do is some kind of small business where you're the sole owner in some kind of niche that you care about, where it doesn't feel like you're being submissive to the customers but rather working to be good at your craft, and the side effect of that is that you have customers because you're good a what you do. Like if you really loved, I don't know - surfing and making surfboards.

The problem is I've never been interested in practical things. I appreciate that they exist, and I respect that some people are into it, but it just never did it for me. I like stories and feelings, creative things. But I don't know how good at them I can get. That's the thing, I worry that I'm neither a creative person nor a STEM/practical person. Like I'm just a nothing. That bothers me a lot.

I don't really follow you on this idea that you think it's only worth trying something if you think you will be really good at them. That's just not how anything works. Michael Jordan may have been the greatest basketball player of all time, but he wasn't naturally like that, if he didn't put in the hours that he did, he never would have even made his high school team. We like the things we're good at, and the things that we're good at are the things we put the hours into. If you took 4hrs of French lessons every week for 3 months, you would verifiably be better at French than you are now. You could be in casual conversation with some friends, throw out some basic sentences, and most would be impressed because though you may only know limited French, it's still more than most people in the room. Now apply that to pottery, or archery, or baking, or chess, or literally anything. There are dudes out there who learn 3 chords on an accoustic guitar and get all the women, because most of them are impressed by this. But you don't think it's worth trying anything in case people mock you for only being 'ok' at something? That just doesn't exist, if something is just ok, we don't talk about it.

I've heard that the Michael Jordan basketball story wasn't quite like that, and that the coach already knew he was good, he just didn't want to make it too easy for him letting him on the team the first time. Either way, he didn't go from a total weakling to a superstar, he had a good base level of athleticism to begin with. It's having that base level, which you then shape into something through practice, that I'm worried about.

You can get a little better at something than you were to start with by practicing, sure.

But those guys playing 3 chords of acoustic guitar getting all the women though, I always thought those guys knew they weren't good at guitar, but they didn't care, because they were doing it to get the women, not because they cared about guitar. It was more of a prop to them, than something they were actually trying to do and be with their lives. They probably don't care about getting any better at the guitar than they need to, to pick up women. It's like a party trick, they're not trying to play original songs or anything. That's the impression I got at least.

it was more asking for context from SkaFish about what humiliation he feels from doing low-paid work.

Well, feeling like inferiority/ineptitude/incompetence is a core trait, because of having a low skill ceiling imposed by genetics, and is something that I can't grow out of, fix, or remove from myself, and therefore that I must be a member of some kind of inherent genetic servant class and having no potential to do anything with my life beyond servitude, that I'm incapable of learning anything well enough to work for my own advancement in the world and making my life better is something I've always worried about. Because one, I hate being insulted and expected to take it, I hate it. And two, working to make my life better was always the point to me. If all I can do is work just to survive to keep living a life I hate, and it's never going to get better, it makes me wonder if it's worth continuing to live at all, if every waking moment is just going to be frustration, humiliation, and powerlessness, with alcohol as my only relief and the only thing to look forward to.

 

[Unsigned]

. Like I'm just a nothing. That bothers me a lot.

No...just no.
You are NOT a nothing.
Stop it.
Yeah I only know you from online over the last 10 months or so.
But I am intelligent enough to recognize that you are very smart.
So cut it out.
Take some time to think on what you really want to do with the next 20 years of your life.
Then focus. And do it.
Yes, I work Tech because of the money.
But guess what?
Work is work.
Unless you are an actor or athlete or something who loves his job...you will most likely NOT love what you do.
What we do (the rest of us) is try to find the best ratio of aggravation vs the money we want/need.
I found it.
You can too.

 

[TheSkaFish]

No...just no.
You are NOT a nothing.
Stop it.
Yeah I only know you from online over the last 10 months or so.
But I am intelligent enough to recognize that you are very smart.
So cut it out.
Take some time to think on what you really want to do with the next 20 years of your life.
Then focus. And do it.
Yes, I work Tech because of the money.
But guess what?
Work is work.
Unless you are an actor or athlete or something who loves his job...you will most likely NOT love what you do.
What we do (the rest of us) is try to find the best ratio of aggravation vs the money we want/need.
I found it.
You can too.

Thanks man. Yeah I have to snap out of this. I've been in this weird funk for about the last two months or so - actually it is on and off a lot, but the last two months have been "on" more or less continuously.

It's probably brought on by heading into another birthday where I'm not where I want to be, I look back and I realize I did my life all wrong and I'm realizing what I should have done right instead. There was only one thing I was ever right about - these "obsessions" I get - and that was needing to be an interesting person. The rest though, I should have just done what my peers were doing.

I'm leaning towards getting back to accounting, because of its reputation for dependability, and because it worked for my brother and a good amount of his friends - and other family members, and people I've read about. I took a few courses in it back in college, and while, like I said, there were probably other things I'd rather learn, still, it is good work and I could live with it. I could be healthy and collect stuff at least, so that's nice. I just have to chart a course to get back to it.

 

[user 190541]

I'm impressed, @Unsigned. It seems like you managed to change his mind after everyone else failed. Dunno what you did, but it was for the good, of that I'm sure.

 

[ringwood]

I'm impressed, @Unsigned. It seems like you managed to change his mind after everyone else failed. Dunno what you did, but it was for the good, of that I'm sure.

Ditto! Whatever it takes to get our Ska heading down a positive road is all good to me.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

For me, this really hasn't gone away.

A big issue that I find is that my friends have a tendency to 'project' their views onto me, then act confused or irritated when I contradict them.

Case in point, I will say "it sucks that girls find me ugly", and they will respond with "Don't worry, you'll find The One very soon!" when I'm not looking for The One, and I never said I was. People don't really ask me what I want, they tell me what they think I should want, usually because it's something that worked out for them. Many are married with 2.4 kids and a mortgage, and it's brought them happiness, so they believe it would make me happy too, but I've been very open about how that's not something I'm looking for. It reminds me of a great quote from Mad Men:

"People tell us who they are, and we ignore it, because we want them to be who we want them to be."

Being ugly definitely changes how people view you. Even when I was 22 I'd talk about dating, and without even asking me, people would just straight-up TELL me "Obviously you don't want hook-ups, you want to find the right one and settle down", when that's something I've never said or implied. The difference is, an attractive 22 gets told things such as "playing the field and seeing what's out there, you're young, no need to be tied down!". People seem to know that my options in life will be limited, so that I must want to marry the first person who slips me the tongue. They also tell me that I "must want" a 'quirky girl' who's nerdy and into weird things, and again that's just not true; I'm fairly mainstream, and would like a relatively mainstream person.

It's frustrating to me that people are obsessed with throwing up distractions rather than solutions. Everything from "Just get a dog!", "Just go travelling!" to "Just buy your own place!"; people seem to think that adding the word "just" to a suggestion makes it somehow smaller or easier. I don't want a pet, nor do I want to quit my job and rental to go travelling. None of those things are anything to do with the problem I'm facing.

As far as therapy goes, so far nobody has been able to describe to me what the best-case-scenario is for paying £300 a month to tell a stranger that women find me ugly. It's not that I'm against the practice, but when I don't consider myself ugly I'm really unsure of what it would achieve in real terms.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I guess it’s all about what you want a solution to…

Ugliness ? Plastic surgery and maybe a stylist

Lack of sex? Travelling or escorts

Feeling annoyed and wanting to vent without solutions? Counselling.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I guess it’s all about what you want a solution to…

Ugliness ? Plastic surgery and maybe a stylist

I mean, you make it sound so easy! I think of celebrities, and how awful some of their plastic surgery looks, with all the money they have, what the hell would I get for my budget?

Money aside, I've no idea what I would get! We haven't really perfected the "head transplant" yet, and that seems to be the general issue, I'm a little clueless as to options.

Lack of sex? Travelling or escorts

Again, I think this is a bit of crossed wires here. Just throwing out the word "travelling" to mean "leading to sex" is so vague and misleading. I still get made fun of for being ugly abroad. I can make friends very easily, but that's it. So yes, travelling can lead to meeting people, but that just means I come away with new friends.

As for escorts; Like I said, the fact that I'm aware that I'm paying for the service kinda renders it useless for me. They don't "want" me, they're just doing their job. I want to be wanted, by more people than zero. Throwing money at paying women to have sex with me does not solve this particular issue.

Feeling annoyed and wanting to vent without solutions? Counselling.

See, that's the thing, I actually DO want solutions to this. So far nobody seems to come up with anything other than "Spend every dollar you have travelling the world and that will help you be less ugly.... somehow!". If anyone could genuinely explain the benefits in my particular scenario, for therapy or counselling, I'd sign up tomorrow.

 

[Cherubino]

As for escorts; Like I said, the fact that I'm aware that I'm paying for the service kinda renders it useless for me. They don't "want" me, they're just doing their job. I want to be wanted, by more people than zero. Throwing money at paying women to have sex with me does not solve this particular issue.

it's not a service ... she offers you her most sacred thing ... the lack of awareness doesn't change that

 

[okidoke]

See, that's the thing, I actually DO want solutions to this. So far nobody seems to come up with anything other than "Spend every dollar you have travelling the world and that will help you be less ugly.... somehow!". If anyone could genuinely explain the benefits in my particular scenario, for therapy or counselling, I'd sign up tomorrow.

If you’re truly ugly, you need to find someone like yourself, that way you’ll appreciate each other. Finding them may require traveling. Don’t have kids though. You don’t want to risk your children suffering worse than you.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

it's not a service ... she offers you her most sacred thing ... the lack of awareness doesn't change that

It is… by definition, a transactional service. No different to paying for someone to massage your back, or cut your hair. They are performing a service for an agreed price. It’s not for me, but I’m not against it as a practice.

 

[Cherubino]

It is… by definition, a transactional service. No different to paying for someone to massage your back, or cut your hair. They are performing a service for an agreed price. It’s not for me, but I’m not against it as a practice.

technically any human interaction is a transaction but she gives you access to something that is not a commodity but it's priceless even she is not aware of that ... that something is sacred as life itself since only homicide is punished more severely if taken against her will ... instead she offers you by her free will something reserved only to her husband and her offspring thus giving you the highest honor a man can get

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

technically any human interaction is a transaction but she gives you access to something that is not a commodity but it's priceless even she is not aware of that ... that something is sacred as life itself since only homicide is punished more severely if taken against her will ... instead she offers you by her free will something reserved only to her husband and her offspring thus giving you the highest honor a man can get

What the fork?

We're definitely approaching this from different angles, you seem to be coming at this from something of a religious or moral puritan angle, and that's just at odds with society of today.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

What the fork?

We're definitely approaching this from different angles, you seem to be coming at this from something of a religious or moral puritan angle, and that's just at odds with society of today.

What is the angle of your approach, and towards what?

 

[Cherubino]

What the fork?

We're definitely approaching this from different angles, you seem to be coming at this from something of a religious or moral puritan angle, and that's just at odds with society of today.

indeed I propose my angle because if this world and specifically sex and the kitty are desacralized you have the freedom to re-assign a sacred meaning to them without their consent

 

[campuslow]

I am not a 1%er or a Clooney lookalike, I

Unsigned, can you clarify when you said I am not a ????

 

[Unsigned]

@campuslow

What I meant is that I believe if a male is either very wealthy (a 1%er), or has George Clooney level looks, he can attract the young, pretty girls that I, unfortunately, only have eyes for.

For me to "be with" them, I have to pay them by the hour.
So to clarify, "Pay for Play" is what I do.
It's not a great way to live. But there are worse things.