I don't understand. Where did I go so wrong?

[VanillaCreme]

I don't get the whole feminist thing. What's that about? People can't ask women out nowdays or what?

 

[Paraiyar]

I don't get the whole feminist thing. What's that about? People can't ask women out nowdays or what?

I'd give you my thoughts on this but A) It'd be too far outside the scope of the thread and B) it'd be good grounds for triggering a political argument.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

We're not supposed to get in life just because we're "nice" ... You do right in life, and do what you feel is right, and do for others because it's the right thing to do. Not because you expect something for it. Perhaps it's because I don't have jealousy in me, but I really don't understand it. And what I don't get even more are those people who try to intentionally make you envy something they have or that someone else has. Nothing's guaranteed to us. But just because you don't get something in the time frame you thought, doesn't mean it will never happen.

I don't think you should be anyone or anything but yourself, but at the same time, don't expect all your dreams to come true because of it. Definitely work on yourself for you, and not for the ideal that someone will be guaranteed to you. I think we'd be better off if we concentrated on ourselves more, over worrying about how others think of us.

Please, don't get me wrong. I, in absolutely no way feel I'm entitled to anything because I'm a 'nice person', or because I've done something to feel I've earned it. That's entitlement complex. Rodger Elliot gave into his. And we all know how that ended.....

I think I get where you're coming from, Creme. honeysuckle happens, or doesn't happen. No one has time for my sooking. I should take a spoonful of cement with some toughen the fresia up pills. Deal with it. Move on. Or at least don't bother anyone with it. And it's completely acceptable to expect it. I am, a man after all. Stoicism is in my nature. At least 90% of the time it is. As evidenced by this thread, the emotional armour isn't completely unbreakable. Although, it's alot stronger now than it was 10 years ago. It's probably why I was able to become alittle bit ambitious and make the improvements I've made over the years.

I don't get the whole feminist thing. What's that about? People can't ask women out nowdays or what?

Well, like Paraiyar said: Going into detail might get somebody into trouble. Hell, I'm surprised I don't have a warning level just for mentioning it in my opening post. I'll say this though. I've always been afraid of approaching women. Most likely, I always will be. Everyone has that one insurmountable hurdle in their lives. For me, this is one of them. As far as the feminist angle goes, there is a large movement that would have guys just shut up and stand aside. That movement is growing larger. Given what I (think) I've learnt about people and the world, maybe I might do some good by complying. Or at least, I'll prevent myself from doing wrong.

 

[ardour]

I get that approaching the opposite sex is just as terrifying for women. Even more so, from what I've seen. A while ago, made a fake female profile on OKcupid. I never had time to finish the profile. Not even a minute after uploading a few pictures, I had 8 likes, 2 messages. Within an hour, 40 likes, 15 messages. In 24 hours, 50 messages. 240 likes. I deleted the profile soon afterwards. Even as a guy. The overbearing attention my profile got from overbearing men actually made me feel uncomfortable. But I can imagine how frightening it must be for an actual female to face this down on the daily. Which is why I've resolved to follow the feminist guidelines. If I keep myself in a state of constant stoicism, and keep my desires suppressed, then maybe I might appear to be less terrifying, and more approachable. Hell, it worked for my workmate. And he didn't need to embark on the journey of self-improvement that I did.

I’m sort of similar in this attitude. It’s fine if you’re looking for more friends, not that that’s worthless, actually it’s welcome, but it doesn’t mean they’ll be attracted to you after growing more comfortable. And with acquaintances, unless the interest is somehow clear, which it never is, there’s the predicament: say something which will very likely make her uncomfortable and risk being viewed a certain way… or don’t and be dismissed as a coward. If by small chance they might have been interested you’ll probably have already been judged for having ‘waited too long’ (wanting to know someone first relegates one to the ranks of insidious Nice Guys).

We're considered responsible for our own happiness in this area; women don’t need to be to the same degree because there’s usually so many ‘takers’ willing to accept their foibles ( an admittedly a large number of creeps they have to deal with).

No offence intended but at a guess, like me, you might not be all that much to look at, so the only advice I have is to do some self-improvement there as much as it’s possible.

 

[Paraiyar]

^Maybe that's it though. That one hurdle that seems insurmountable to you is the very one you need to overcome for things to change.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Well, like Paraiyar said: Going into detail might get somebody into trouble. Hell, I'm surprised I don't have a warning level just for mentioning it in my opening post. I'll say this though. I've always been afraid of approaching women. Most likely, I always will be. Everyone has that one insurmountable hurdle in their lives. For me, this is one of them. As far as the feminist angle goes, there is a large movement that would have guys just shut up and stand aside. That movement is growing larger. Given what I (think) I've learnt about people and the world, maybe I might do some good by complying. Or at least, I'll prevent myself from doing wrong.

I'll never give into the feminist thing. I don't agree with a lot of it, especially the radical side of it. I just wanted to know how that played into asking out women. I think that if you're attracted to someone, you should make the move to ask them out. If not, if you don't want to do that, then that's on the person holding back. I can completely understand it being a hurdle, but eventually, you'll learn to jump over it.

We're considered responsible for our own happiness in this area; women don’t need to be to the same degree because there’s usually so many ‘takers’ willing to accept their foibles ( an admittedly a large number of creeps they have to deal with).

And, I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous notion. Maybe it seems that way to you because you're on the other side of the fence. But there are many women, myself included, who have never had many "takers" - whatever that really means. Women aren't better off just because of tits and vaginas.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

Women aren't better off just because of tits and vaginas.

I disagree. My vagina hurting has never made me fall over and made me want to throw up.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Women aren't better off just because of tits and vaginas.

I disagree. My vagina hurting has never made me fall over and made me want to throw up.

Only if you let it drink too much vodka.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

I’m sort similar in this attitude. It’s fine if you’re looking for more friends, not that that’s worthless, actually it’s welcome, but it doesn’t mean they’ll be attracted to you after growing more comfortable. And with acquaintances, unless the interest is somehow clear, which it never is, there’s the predicament: say something which will very likely make her uncomfortable and risk being viewed a certain way… or don’t and be dismissed as a coward. If by small chance they might have been interested you’ll probably have already been judged for having ‘waited too long’ (wanting to know someone first relegates one to the ranks of insidious Nice Guys).

We're considered responsible for our own happiness in this area; women don’t need to be to the same degree because there’s usually so many ‘takers’ willing to accept their foibles ( an admittedly a large number of creeps they have to deal with).

No offence intended but at a guess, like me, you might not be all that much to look at, so the only advice I have is to do some self-improvement there as much as it’s possible.

HAH! None taken b0ss. I don't consider myself to be particularly attractive, or ugly. And I don't feel obliged to post a selfie either. We'll go with your assumption that I'm not much to look at. But consider this: Neither were alot of those guys I saw at the convention. Yet, many of them clearly had girlfriends there. Everyone will tell us that our physical appearance isn't all that matters in attracting potential partners. If the con is anything to go by, it matters alot less than I thought.

But, to jump back to your first paragraph, playing the game is near impossible for people like us. We've become too aware of the odds and the consequences for our own good. And there's no turning back from that. We now ask ourselves: 'Is it better to be a creep, or a coward?' If you're anything like me, then you've chosen cowardice. Because at least that way, there are no direct repercussions for not taking any actions.

 

[VanillaCreme]

It's not a game. I think that's mistake number one for many people.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

It's not a game. I think that's mistake number one for many people.

How exactly would you have me view it then? Because as it is, viewing the whole courting and dating process as a game has made it easy for me to swallow that cement and take myself away from the equation?

Most of the time that is.

 

[Xpendable]

A rigged game.

 

[VanillaCreme]

It's not a game. I think that's mistake number one for many people.

How exactly would you have me view it then? Because as it is, viewing the whole courting and dating process as a game has made it easy for me to swallow that cement and take myself away from the equation?

Most of the time that is.

You can view it however you like. But the minute you treat it like it's a game that you have to play through to get what you want, is the very second it almost becomes a joke. I don't do the whole dating thing. Never have. Never will. But I certainly wouldn't view being with someone as a game. Or getting to that point of being with someone.

 

[ardour]

Not even if you realized they were dull, had nothing in common with you and seemed desperate and stalkerish?

Yeah even then. At least at first. Knowing the opposite sex finds you attractive suggests there's a good chance someone you actually want will want you back.

Obviously there are downsides, but you're in a position to dismiss these guys as not worth your time in the first place. In comparison most of us have never had the slightest bit of interest thrown our way.

 

[Serenia]

If you are playing it as a game, you surely can't be being yourself. So then women may feel they are picking up a strange vibe that something is not quite right.

 

[TheRealCallie]

It's not really rocket science. If you're interested in something, you inquire about it politely. That's true for anything, whether it's dating or the car with a for sale sign in it down the street. In dating, you ask them out, they say yes or no, you move on accordingly, depending on the answer.

People have to throw in all this bullshit into dating that doesn't belong there. There are no leagues, there are no games for the majority of people. The only time leagues come into play is when someone has low self esteem or a big ass ******* ego and they think they are better than other people (which they aren't). The only time games come into play is again the big ass ego or bitches/douchebags.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

If you are playing it as a game, you surely can't be being yourself. So then women may feel they are picking up a strange vibe that something is not quite right.

If my approach to this whole thing is to just not approach at all, then I can't really be playing any games. I feel this has been lost within the thread somehow, I must stress again: How can I be playing if I'm not making any advances? Although, when you bring up how I'm not being myself, and women are getting a vibe that something isn't quite right with me. I feel this is something else that's been lost in translation too. I like where I am right now thanks to the personal growth I've done in my twenties. I get the feeling that people responding to me directly in this thread don't seem to completely understand this. And I can't blame them. I mean, if that really was the case, then why even make this thread, right? But let's say the past 10 years was spent as a farce just to get people to like me more, and maybe attract female attention. Then, that would imply that in order to be myself, I needed to stay as the frustrated 'nice guy'. It's something I never want to go back to, ever. But, if you guys are right, and the current me really IS a farce, then that would mean that there is something very VERY wrong with me.

And if that really was the case, then that's all the more reason to adhere to the feminist guidelines of 'dating'. Because now it's quite probable that I could do more harm than good to someone in a relationship. I've seen what happens to people in abusive relationships. If the way I am as a person is going to cause someone mental and emotional damage, then it's in everyone's best interests that I stay scared of approaching women I like......

It's not really rocket science. If you're interested in something, you inquire about it politely. That's true for anything, whether it's dating or the car with a for sale sign in it down the street. In dating, you ask them out, they say yes or no, you move on accordingly, depending on the answer.

People have to throw in all this bullshit into dating that doesn't belong there. There are no leagues, there are no games for the majority of people. The only time leagues come into play is when someone has low self esteem or a big ass ******* ego and they think they are better than other people (which they aren't). The only time games come into play is again the big ass ego or bitches/douchebags.

I've been clicking my fingers as I try and comprehend how the concept of dating can be as simple as the act of a finger snap. I've clicked my fingers raw, and you know what? I can't do it. For 10 years, I've taught myself to think in leagues and games as far as the concept of dating goes. I've thankfully never acted on any of this, so maybe I have my restraint going for me. Still, like you said: People that think like that either have horrible self esteem, or are egotistical douchebags. I guess, after all is considered, I'm a ********* with bad self esteem?

But give me alittle credit though. At least I'm a self-aware *********. And one that's getting exactly what he deserves.......

 

[TheRealCallie]

It's not really rocket science. If you're interested in something, you inquire about it politely. That's true for anything, whether it's dating or the car with a for sale sign in it down the street. In dating, you ask them out, they say yes or no, you move on accordingly, depending on the answer.

People have to throw in all this bullshit into dating that doesn't belong there. There are no leagues, there are no games for the majority of people. The only time leagues come into play is when someone has low self esteem or a big ass ******* ego and they think they are better than other people (which they aren't). The only time games come into play is again the big ass ego or bitches/douchebags.

I've been clicking my fingers as I try and comprehend how the concept of dating can be as simple as the act of a finger snap. I've clicked my fingers raw, and you know what? I can't do it. For 10 years, I've taught myself to think in leagues and games as far as the concept of dating goes. I've thankfully never acted on any of this, so maybe I have my restraint going for me. Still, like you said: People that think like that either have horrible self esteem, or are egotistical douchebags. I guess, after all is considered, I'm a ********* with bad self esteem?

But give me alittle credit though. At least I'm a self-aware *********. And one that's getting exactly what he deserves.......

I don't know you well enough to say whether you are a ********* or not, perhaps you are, but I don't know that and wasn't saying that at all. If you feel there are leagues, perhaps you just have low self esteem.

Very few things in life are simple. Of course dating and relationships aren't simple, however, if you don't try, you will most likely not get anything/anyone. It's your life, it's your beliefs, do what you feel is right for you and your ideologies. I'm just saying what I think about the matter.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

I don't know you well enough to say whether you are a ********* or not, perhaps you are, but I don't know that and wasn't saying that at all. If you feel there are leagues, perhaps you just have low self esteem.

Very few things in life are simple. Of course dating and relationships aren't simple, however, if you don't try, you will most likely not get anything/anyone. It's your life, it's your beliefs, do what you feel is right for you and your ideologies. I'm just saying what I think about the matter.

And it's your right to do so. This IS, an open forum, after all. Normally with these things, I can just take a few mouthfuls of cement and pretend like this doesn't bother me. But what I saw at that con actually shook me a bit, hence me making this thread to begin with. It's only a temporary weakness though. I'm quite sure once this thread dies off, I won't be back for another year at least.

 

[Xpendable]

Is not that we or others think of it as a game, It's the fact that it has been presenting itself like a game for a long time. You need to understand that every form of social interaction has some level of manipulation. Younger generations have so much access and oportunities now to hook up and be selective, thanks to social media and the internet, that we can't avoid to think we are inside a game and have to adapt or die. As I said, it's rigged because not all "players" start with the same advantages in the beggining. The rules can also be bended if you happen to be very good at playing, and so on. Relationships aren't simple, but it doesn't mean they work in fairness.