I don't understand. Where did I go so wrong?

[TheRealCallie]

You need to understand that every form of social interaction has some level of manipulation.

How do you figure that?

 

[Xpendable]

You need to understand that every form of social interaction has some level of manipulation.

How do you figure that?

Never rewarded your kids by making them do something they didn't want?
Did they never get something from you by huging you or crying?

Polititians manipualte for votes, companies for sales.
We put effort in being liked and accepted, We start conversations with people only to get something from them. Friendship or something else. We make an image of ourselves to show so others can decode what we want. We are full of masks and hidden intentions. This is a basic premise of how we relate with eachother. Not saying is bad, is just how it works. Feel free to tell me some anecdotal evidence and how your case being different invalidates all the other millions, it doesn't matter.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not all of those examples are manipulation....

 

[Xpendable]

"let me explain..."

No you go on.

 

[TheRealCallie]

ma·nip·u·late
məˈnipyəˌlāt/Submit
verb
1.
handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner.
"he manipulated the dials of the set"
synonyms: operate, work; More
2.
control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
"the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group"
synonyms: control, influence, use/turn to one's advantage, exploit, maneuver, engineer, steer, direct, gerrymander; twist someone around one's little finger
"the government tried to manipulate the situation"

 

[Xpendable]

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/27/Appeal_to_Definition

 

[TheRealCallie]

So, is empathizing with people and acting on said empathy also deemed as manipulation to you?

 

[Xpendable]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

 

[user 115627]

That was an inquiry into your original position, not a loaded rhetorical question amounting to a strawman. Just answer it.

 

[Xpendable]

Assuming it was my original postion, that's where it fails.

 

[user 115627]

It's to be determined whether what she asked about is an additional part of your position. An attempt to understand it better. It's not a substitute. You can just deny what she asked about and elaborate on your original position. If you still want to.

You stated that what you described "is a basic premise of how we relate with eachother". Empathy is also a basic premise of how we relate to each other.

 

[Xpendable]

But it must be determined if empathy was well defined inside the argument or she just saw empathy where there was not. If not, she is effectively making a substitute.

 

[user 115627]

At least I think empathy is another basic premise of how we relate to each other and therefore relevant. But I won't conjecture what her position is or speak on her behalf. Her quoting the dictionary definition of manipulation was flawed as well and did not invalidate your original claim.

So I'll let you define it instead. The examples given by you do showcase examples of manipulation. Appeals to emotion in order to trigger a beneficial reaction. I won't deny that.

I think my question is more along the lines of whether it is still manipulation if both parties benefit equally from the original action. Or whether an action can be an end in itself at all. For example, a hug in order to convey affection. The other party does not need to react - they just need to let it happen - and it's beneficial to the initiator either way.

 

[Xpendable]

I think my question is more along the lines of whether it is still manipulation if both parties benefit equally from the original action. Or whether an action can be an end in itself at all. For example, a hug in order to convey affection. The other party does not need to react - they just need to let it happen - and it's beneficial to the initiator either way.

I guess in that case it can be absent. But in the rare case an action is its own end, you also have to get rid of the idea that manipulation is always bad. Also being aware that the quantity in which this exists. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes is mutually beneficial. Still, in the original idea, the dating (or mating) system is fundamentally based on certain aspects of manipulation and the current times allows this even more.

 

[user 115627]

I guess in that case it can be absent. But in the rare case an action is its own end, you also have to get rid of the idea that manipulation is always bad. Also being aware that the quantity in which this exists. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes is mutually beneficial. Still, in the original idea, the dating (or mating) system is fundamentally based on certain aspects of manipulation and the current times allows this even more.

Understood. It's true that the word manipulation has a naturally negative connotation which is why people will avoid it. If we go by a common dictionary definition, we can loosely define manipulation as "influencing others". Most people are not going to do this either way but I'll ignore it for the sake of the argument. Since the purpose of most (social) actions is to trigger a reaction, this can be filed under influencing, ergo manipulation. Not ill-intentioned, but deliberate. In that case, your mating/dating system example is valid too since it's based on call and response.

You made your case and I'm done here. Back to our regularly scheduled program...

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not every social interaction is a manipulation, regardless of how you want to define it. People gives hugs just to give a hug, expecting nothing in return. People talk to others expecting nothing in return.
I can walk down the street and say hello to someone. They don't have to say hello back or acknowledge me in any way, I wanted to say hello, so I did.
If I volunteer somewhere, I don't expect anything in return.

Manipulation is a bad thing. When it's not a bad thing, it's not called manipulation.

 

[Sometimes]

.
.
.
At this point, I'm actually left wondering if there's something intrinsically wrong with me at the core of my being......

I'd like to say that you sound fine, and rational, and ok. It occurs to me that you might be missing one thing: the body language/verbal cues of signalling availability. You might get a woman to approach, provided you learn the proper way to send this message.

Just a thought.

 

[Xpendable]

Manipulation is a bad thing. When it's not a bad thing, it's not called manipulation.

Then it's called public relations. I can see how you think both are different.

 

[TheRealCallie]

No, it's not

 

[ardour]

Behaving a certain way in the hope of getting a desired response isn't necessarily manipulation.