A fresh Dialectical approach?

[Robin]

oO Are You two for real? As the illiterate i feel like while trying to keep up with even one of Your sentences, it still, somehow seems clear to me that You're trying to find the ultimate cure for, not just loneliness or depression, but ALL of life's problems, for every person. I'm not trying to intrude or disrupt anything here, just want to try and get an answer to what the authors of the most complex rows of text i've ever read actually are up to.

 

[AaronAgassi]

Since we have much the same concept of friendship, I see no reason actually not to strategize. The main reason I wonder that our needs might differ, must still be how differently we seem to feel about small talk.

How should one contend with frustration? -you ask... The obvious answer remains: strategy that might succeed. The less obvious answer remains: interaction that fulfils. -Perhaps not a problem for you, if you are perfectly happy with a process that you find working for you, Simmias. But more a problem for me, because nothing will ever work for me with half a heart! And I have been forced to embrace that lesson.

And for that matter, it's not ice breakers I need but deal clinchers! Seriously, though, let's forget all the seduction community bullshit along with the rest of the baggage of failed truism, and get serious about the entire picture of all that has ever really brought sexual partners together in society. But perhaps that's yet another topic.

 

[AaronAgassi]

Robin, believe it or not, we really are trying to move from the general to the specific. The reason is because of all the assumptions people seem to accept on this forum, that I honestly believe doom their best efforts to futility.

 

[Robin]

So You say that, because the general knowledge that people share together isn't enough directed towards each specific problem, it isn't helpful?

 

[AaronAgassi]

Look at the advice people spout on this very forum, Robin. It may be very much directed towards specific goals. But it's all cliché! It's never really that simple. And these truisms often fail to take into consideration neither the real complexity of the problems generally, not the specific circumstances and obstacles of each individual.

 

[Simmias]

Robin, I think that is one of the things we are trying to find out. It could be that general knowledge when it is not made specific is a missed opportunity. It doesn't get to the heart of a problem and what we are trying to do is find a way to boil problems down and come up with a useful plan. Maybe friendships develop along the way as it leads two people to know each other and benefit from another point of view.

But it could also be that general knowledge, smalltalk even, is a valuable thing on its own. It brings some comfort, perhaps, and it opens up pathways to possible friendship. It is a way to show caring when there is nothing useful to say.

If we leave it like that we will never find out what balance is right for finding success. If we work through it and challenge someone's thoughts, politely, we might get an insight we would never have got on our own.

But the most important question is what do you think? Does general advice help the person who receives it or would a true friend spend time trying to pin down exactly what is wrong and offering their insight to help overcome the problem?

Aaron, I'll have to come back to you tomorrow once I've given your last post some more thought

So You say that, because the general knowledge that people share together isn't enough directed towards each specific problem, it isn't helpful?

 

[Robin]

I agree with You that it's mostly cliché and some pretty useless posts around a place like this but since most of the people here are here to get help rather than give help (and that there are alot of folks in quite the same situation, after all) i think it's great that so many are giving some time to reply to folks' threads at all. Not that i would know just how much knowledge i have in my trunk compared to any other person at this forum, but i consider myself quite the pin-pointer once i get going and that's simply because i don't stop until i've done all that i can do to help a person with his or her problem; which most of the time leads to the thing which, so many times have been discussed is the only way to truly get "there"; continuing psychiatric care (pen-palling message after message after message).

What You two are doing could be considered a cliché as well; trying to create some kind of template to solve anyone's problems. I don't fully understand if You truly believe there can be such a helpful interactivity or if You just want to try and find some short-cuts with the continuing care, but i'm behind the crowd that say no such thing ever can get specific enough no matter how much time that have gone into it. Since You're only two persons that makes it even less realistic. It sure as heck can help very much and perhaps even get some people "cured" enough to dare to take some steps to a better life all by themselves afterwards, but i think You're being a little too optimistic. What i mean with that is that You shouldn't stress Yourself out completely now; You seem pretty deep into this already and i know how obcessions can sneek on to ya.

I've been down the same road as You two and still are thinking about doing something like You are doing but in form of a website which ask question after question which You are to answer and get deeper and deeper into a somewhat specific care to get the, at least, worst cases back on their feat for a while. Thanks to my parents, and my almost completely inexistant upbringing, my general knowledge was very, very low when i got depressed in my teen-age and this amade me not even understand that i were depressed; i thought that everyone felt like that. What i mean with this is that such a website could do miracles for the poor kids who are in the same situation as i were back then; those who didn't yet get any help at all, which there seem to be quite a few of in this very forum as well.

What You two are doing is absolutely great though, i couldn't think of a more generous way of spending Your time than researching into how You could make the treatment both faster and more successful for people in as bad conditions as they are here. I hope that You do succeed in something which might help people here one day and i'm sure that You will as long as You don't bore eachother to death before You do so, or run out of new words with Your extremely vibrant grammar in mind.

 

[AaronAgassi]

And here I thought that I was actually willing to do things the hard way!

But no, I believe that my thrust is something quite distinct from therapy, because psychotherapy deals entirely with obstacles of inner conflict only. Whereas, I am assuming that the issues we confront are challenges in the real world. Self defeating behavior and denial are quite separate issues there from. -Much as I am looking forward to your online questionnaire, Robin.

And my sought for template is not a solution to enact, but any working hypothesis in brief of what we seem to be missing. -Which I think is crucial, given how many people are so dissatisfied with all that they where told would make them happy. I cannot foresee any new strategy except from some new premise.

In brief, I see the greatest problem in this community is sheer ordinariness, utter normalcy. For whatever reason, it just isn't working for anyone here but Simmias. That is why I strive to raise doubts about all the most average expectations.

 

[Simmias]

A diversion, sure, but have you seen either of these recent threads yet? Much goes on under the surface here.

http://www.alonelylife.com/showthread.php?tid=1019

http://www.alonelylife.com/showthread.php?tid=1034

Surely our thoughts must turn to how these things can happen for some and if there are lessons to be learned from their success?

I will return to your earlier post in the morning.

 

[AaronAgassi]

As no explanation is offered, I draw no conclusion.

 

[Robin]

Well then we're even more the same than i thought; i'm also into the "get a move-on" game, frankly telling people what they should do, practically, in real life to get them to see that this or that wasn't as bad as they thought. Since i still don't understand much of what You're writing here i can't say i understand exactly what You are trying to do, or how You're trying to do it, though.

Simmias, the success story Wendi tells is pretty much exactly what i hope the people i help will undergo; just going crazy and doing stuff which currently doesn'ts seem logical to a person, like helping others, is just what i've told several people to do. I don't actually know if Wendi even has read the longer posts where i give these directions of how to try and change life, but the story she tells sounds precisely like she realised the very same things i did during my depression.

Sure You can improve most things, but i'm at least one of the people here who already have some knowledge in getting people to DO stuff, in real life, and all i can say is that frequent optimism and logic mixed with illogical, new things for someone to do is all that's needed to convince someone to actually go and do it. That's why i often try to contact the people i'm helping via PM's so i can keep telling them how important it is to DO stuff in real life as well as within their heads; ordering them to do it beacuse it can save their lives, put frankly. This is nothing but logic which anyone can come up with and can, with some sense of helpfullnes, make something good out of.

Most of the people i've helped have either been compeltely new to any form of help towards their depressed minds or lonely lives, so those i'm sure anyone could help them quite alot rather easily. What it seems to me like You're trying to do is to be able to help the totally misfortunate, who've already tried everything but still haven't come anywhere. Now that's a challange, but there's always something these people have missed out to do yet, and all they need is some more convincing that doing this or that for some time will help them more. People need goals! Helping them find those is another really helpful thing to do.

Even though You've made 200 posts, Aaron, i haven't seen a single one of them in any threads i've read so far, so i don't know why You came here or what You've done here. But don't take too long to do what You're doing; we need more people like You two to actively tell people what most people don't!

 

[Simmias]

You draw no conclusion at all?
I offer those links as no more than evidence that more than one person has found something that matches their own personal definition of the experience that will alleviate or end Loneliness, unhappiness and/or boredom.

I offer them as the inspiring testimony they are. If they are short on specifics then it is because neither are instructional threads.
Inspiration, though, may lead one to redouble their efforts in seeking similar experiences in their own life. On this site, even!

To move to strategy is clearly the next step if we truly desire such an experience for ourselves.

We spoke earlier of the conditions required. I submit that these are the basic conditions necessary to make a friendship and that such conditions are met on this site.

1. A desire to make a friend and to take action to achieve that goal.

2. Another person who is open to making a friendship with you and who you have no serious objection to as a potential friend.

3. A "hook" in order to facilitate our first moves in communication

4. A method of building the friendship; The medium, if you will.

What will we add?

The conclusion I gather from those two threads is that it is possible, it has been done here before now and it is up to us each to find our own tactics to allow probable success. That is why we should pick each others' brain surely?

If you allow the experience exists, that you want it for yourself and that it is achievable here then mere tactics and strategy seem all that is left.

 

[Simmias]

Robin,

I have read your posts and the depth of thought that goes into your advice is very noticeable. I think you and Aaron are alike in many ways.

Do people follow your advice though? Is your work and effort, concern even, appreciated as a practical thing or is it squandered as just more advice to listen to and ignore?

I argue that people can only change their own minds, they will ignore even the best advice. What if, instead of offering the good advice, we could prod them along the path of arriving at that advice themselves? Be a shepherd for their thoughts?
Rather than tell them what they should do, we hope to force a change in the way they think about the problem leading them to develop their own good advice. PMs are perfect for this.

It seems that most people only do what they want to do, in the end. Aaron and I, and you too now, are trying to find a way to help people along the road of answering their own questions. We are doing this by listening, agreeing AND disputing, and seeking a solution where every relevant factor has been examined critically. Unless the rules are understood, though, it can look very rude by the normal standards of boards like this. It is important, I feel, to soften the blow by carrying it out in an obvious spirit of friendship.

It is a method demonstrated by Socrates and has great potential but seems to have fallen out of favour because it is in-depth and time consuming. Perhaps people will invest that time if they have seen it work in practice.

 

[AaronAgassi]

I'd say that we have somewhat strayed from any much dialectical form. Indeed, how conversational is our exchange at this point? Because, throwing up cheerleading testimonial does seem somewhat monological! And I offer no response to empty motivational or inspirational cheerleading, nor for testimonials which are anecdotal evidence that cannot be evaluated. These are not rational appeals, and have no place in Dialectic. Moreover, as evidence, in any dialectical form, first there must be a clear question and a clear answer to which whatever evidence must howsoever apply either in support or refutation.

We also seem to have broken down discussion upon perhaps the key point:

A sales hook to promote friendship might be helpful, but we still differ vastly upon criteria for method. You are willing to be pragmatic, and I am not. I stand upon a requirement of intrinsically fulfilling interaction as essential to being genuine in any spirit of seeking friendship. I see pragmatism as a manifestation of painful alienation, not any solution acceptable for me.

Am I clear on this yet, Simmias? And how do you care to proceed? I fear that you have largely demonstrated your point, that hanging out and making small talk can achieve social integration. But I never denied it and remain unmoved. The Dialectic form should have begun with just such a clear assertion on your part. I would have agreed and cut this short.

My point is different:

To be successful, hanging out and making small talk is typically a long and arduous investment. Not only do I personally find it so extremely disagreeable, but there is also clear evidence that for many people, it doesn't seem to work after all.

Hanging out and making small talk is often repressive and dispiriting, depending upon the personality. Do you actually disagree? Otherwise, perhaps you can understand why I emphasize the importance of any more fulfilling alternative. Why I hope that any more fulfilling interactions might be discovered adequately engaging even right off the bat. Or that one way or another, compatible matches for any desired interaction might ever more readily emerge. One size need not fit all!

I do not approve of the jobs we hate for the money we need, nor of perseverance of insufferable courtship ordeals in desperation to get laid, nor of vapid small talk in desperation for social integration. These are all clear manifestations of oppressive conformity and alienation, perhaps the most insidious and actually intrusive form of loneliness even in public. The very workability of any such system is exactly what renders the status quo so oppressive.

That is why my own suggested order of questions remains:

Definition of personally fulfilling stimuli of interaction, then imagination of circumstances for the desired interaction. Only then strategy. I asked you from the beginning if you where interested. And I ask you again, now.

This only leaves your exhortation that in order not to be jarring, small talk is merely courteous. But you might as well argue as much about itchy clothing to a nudist! Openness indeed, is all the more jarring the more closed the society. Nevertheless, I may find myself ill suited to the compromises of an approach of infiltration and pretense. And clearly I'm not the only one. I am unreasonable. The entire questions I sought to raise, are all in quest of some more agreeable alternative to being more agreeable. I do not wish to be subject to such behavior modefication. You won't be the first or the last to suggest it. I have expressed from the beginning my need to establish my boundaries. What you are really attempting to compromise with here is nothing less than peer pressure to norm out dissent as antisocial.

What have we to say to lonely people with none to befriend them? Indeed, such are routinely advised not to seem needy. They are in pain, and the remedy begins that they should conceal it so as not to alarm others who, quite frankly, might benefit from the wake up! I for one find all such advice somewhat depraved! And likewise, the bored silly must grit their teeth, hang out and suffer small talk for as long as it takes. And you really wonder why I demand better?

You seek to lulll, Simmias, whereas I seek to engage. And I find myself at something of a loss to sooth people in denial.

 

[Simmias]

What is more rational that when faced with a claim that,

For whatever reason, it just isn't working for anyone here but Simmias.,

I reply with a direct and recent refutation?
I disagree, too, that it is merely anecdotal. I know of no legal system that treats direct confession as to facts in one's own knowledge as anything less than Real evidence. It is neither hearsay nor anecdotal. Now, legal systems often require more than one piece of Real evidence but that in no way lessens the value of the confession. We must simply seek more proof. It seems entirely right though that I offer evidence when you make a statement I then seek to refute.

And I would that it had been so easy as to claim that "small talk aids social integration", but that has never been the whole extent of my claim. I daresay I detest small talk for its own sake. My whole point has been that, when one tool fails, it is wisest to look for a new tool, one of demonstrated ability. Small talk, as we refer to it, is one method, among many, of realising the goal of friendship. A friendship within which two friends may aid each other through any method they wish, be it validation or dialogue. My argument is that friendship is not built on one thing alone but on a drawing together of two minds and that all tested methods are useful in achieving this.
We must not only find people we would be friends with, we must befriend them. Should we reject a tool because so many misuse it? In skillful hands it is still a tool.

To my mind we have dealt with a Definition of personally fulfilling stimuli of interaction. You accepted my definition. Perhaps a fresh definition may be best.

By defining the conditions required to allow friendship, and suggesting they were before us, I was attempting to
Then imagine(ation) of circumstances for the desired interaction

My question is this Aaron; What do you seek?

If it is a more perfect dialogue, if the form of the conversation matters more than the fact of the conversation, then I suggest, in all friendliness, that you may find it elsewhere. Surely there are forums for philosophers where these debates are carried out enthusiastically and relevantly? By people who are skilled in the technique.

If your goal is rather to find a friend here then perhaps we should hear alternatives to smalltalk. It is plain it will not be your method and nor should it be. Unless we are time constrained there is no reason, though, not to explore dead ends, if only to dismiss them. Apart from offering dialogue, which you despair of ever achieving, and a concern for people,what else do you bring to the table? What are your conditions, at present, and how do you exploit them?
In the absence of details as to your routine social opportunities I can only offer examples from my own situation. You asked as much of another member in another thread.

If this has veered too far from where you feel it should be going then suppose you have two choices:

Persevere and keep pulling me back to the point. Accept that I argue in my own way and that I will attempt to stay relevant.

or

Break it off. I will be disappointed but accepting. It has been a good faith attempt and, if it breaks down irretrievably, I do not regret trying.Perhaps I am the wrong person to do this with but it has been fun for me, whether you like it or not [/i]

 

[AaronAgassi]

I fail to see anything but cheerleading and anecdote in the links provided by you. But perhaps I am missing some buried content. Nevertheless, I stand corrected: It would appear that small talk is indeed working for others besides yourself, Simmias.

And just to make a fine point even however semantic: Proof, and only of validity, meaning internal consistency, exists only in logic. Empirical questions of external reality, however, deal in evidence, never proof.


"To my mind we have dealt with a Definition of personally fulfilling stimuli of interaction. You accepted my definition. Perhaps a fresh definition may be best.

By defining the conditions required to allow friendship, and suggesting they were before us, I was attempting to
Then imagine(ation) of circumstances for the desired interaction"

Allow me to clarify: I did not mean circumstances leading to whatever desired interaction, which is a legitimate strategic consideration. Rather, I meant imagined conditions under which the interaction needs are already satisfied. -Only then to work backwards, strategically, towards attainment thereof.

And yes, I have attempted such a possible definition for myself, on FoolQuest.com


Now for simple friendship, the general nature of which we do agree upon, under what conditions might people be more friendly? Any idea thereof might better inform strategy to achieve said conditions.

For a simple illustration, for the values of conviviality, humor and creativity, conditions can actually be created by capable event planners, quite simply: A table full of puzzles, gadgets and construction toys, will illicit just such engagement between attendees. Likewise a graffiti board. Throw in a buffet just for good measure...

I leave it to you, then, to frame the strategic challenge of bring about such conditions anywhere they do not already exist. -Which, alas, is most of the time anywhere...

Or, consider for yourself, given the obvious value of sex: Under what conditions are complete strangers more or less likely to have sex?

This is intended as a way of making more concrete, but not arbitrarily so, any question of what kind of life one might prefer to live.


Why have I tended to focus upon extremes of endless vapid small talk? Because that is exactly what is demanded of us. And striving, instead, somehow to measure it out, can seem a bit naive if not somewhat disingenuous. Indeed, in so far as those testimonials are concerned, I still have no clue what is supposed to have succeeded, how or why. No one has answered me on that score.

Nevertheless, all you really have meant is that I am somewhat abrupt, and that I should do something else instead. And I should take care not to put more words into your mouth. Again, I stand corrected. It's just that, as you well know, my patience is already worn thin from all that is so trite! Distress elicits my sympathy. Denial and banality do not tend to. You yourself, Simmias, are the one who observed the vast inefficiency of traded monologues as opposed to proper dialogue.

 

[lonely2beeme]

oO Are You two for real? I'm not trying to intrude or disrupt anything here, just want to try and get an answer to what the authors of the most complex rows of text i've ever read actually are up to.

robin i was curious since aaron kept referring to his post here i came and stoped to look and i got a chill , i mean a full WTF ???? slowly back out of this room chill .
im afraid poor aaron for lack of a playmate who speaks his own language has introduced a imaginary friend ????if you read the posts tho they play to be haveing a debate on oppisite ends they are quite in tune with one another from everything to the way they write , vocabulary and a love for Socrates ...........
did you notice that Simmias only has ever posted 15 posts and all 15 are all in this one thread over 4 days ,i found it disturbing and yet he quoted the sucess thread ,yet even tho he read and even posted a link to it , it he didnt post in it ,only here on this one thread was he a chatter box .......

A diversion, sure, but have you seen either of these recent threads yet? Much goes on under the surface here.

http://www.alonelylife.com/showthread.php?tid=1019

http://www.alonelylife.com/showthread.php?tid=1034

Surely our thoughts must turn to how these things can happen for some and if there are lessons to be learned from their success?

I will return to your earlier post in the morning.

of course aaron had seen the threads when sim asked aaron this it was on the 24th after aaron had already started posting there
.........why do these two talk exactly the same ? there cant be two people as stiff as aaron in the world let alone on the same forum in this one particular thread .........haveing said that tommorrow there will be a burst of alter ego Simmias posts every where because aaron isnt quite as smart as he thinks he is and forgot to tie up lose ends.
also the very 1st post is again aaron advertiseing his website FoolQuest.com as he often does ..............
its weel pathetic ...........

lets break down the mysterious appearance of aaron #2 Simmias
Aaron makes his own thread to toot his website Foolquest.com
expecting no one to want to reply to his thread he makes his own
imaginary friend who suddeny registered onthis day and his 1st post
wasent about his problems, a introduction or why he came but straight
to Aaron's thread solely to debate appearing mysteriously everynight
all evening at the same time to sit and wait knowing aaron would also be
spending 4 nights in a row posting with him every night until bedtime ..........

Simmias
(Junior Member)
15 posts (all in A fresh Dialectical approach? thread)
Registration Date: 07-21-2007

day1 the beginning (posts in order of author and time )
AaronAgassi　07-21-2007 06:28 PM
Simmias　　　07-21-2007 06:42 PM　　　　　　
AaronAgassi　07-21-2007 06:58 PM
Simmias　　　　07-21-2007 07:42 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-21-2007 07:54 PM
Simmias　　　　07-21-2007 08:08 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-21-2007 08:19 PM
Simmias　　　　07-21-2007 08:33 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-21-2007 09:27 PM

day 2 aaron and sim both made a long night of it
how odd they both have such close posting patterns ,
they could be twins ,in almost everything

Simmias　　　　07-22-2007 08:22 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-22-2007 10:11 PM
Simmias　　　　　07-22-2007 11:49 PM
AaronAgassi　　　07-23-2007 12:06 AM
Simmias　　　　07-23-2007 03:31 AM
AaronAgassi　　07-23-2007 06:00 AM

day3 home once again posting with his new buddy
maybe had supper and tv then a posting session
unexpectedly Robin shows up Aaron must be
delerious a real poster on his thread

Simmias　　　　07-23-2007 05:34 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-23-2007 09:04 PM
Simmias　　　　07-23-2007 09:38 PM
AaronAgassi　　07-23-2007 11:31 PM
Simmias　　　　07-24-2007 02:13 AM
Robin 07-24-2007 02:43 AM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 02:50 AM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 02:54 AM
Robin 07-24-2007 03:04 AM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 03:13 AM
Simmias 07-24-2007 03:21 AM
Robin 07-24-2007 03:52 AM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 04:48 AM
Simmias 07-24-2007 05:19 AM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 05:37 AM

day 4 robin replies in the afternoon
followed by dr jeckyle and mr.hide makeing a appearance

Robin 07-24-2007 03:36 PM
Simmias 07-24-2007 04:27 PM
Simmias 07-24-2007 04:50 PM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 08:47 PM
Simmias 07-24-2007 10:46 PM
AaronAgassi 07-24-2007 11:30 PM

aaron stop messing with the people here it isnt right , or get some professional help for you split personalities you are schizo
there is something truely pathetic about the way you go about amusing and consoleing yourself on long lonely nights
this forum is gonna go to hell if your gonna start playing games
and some people really do benefit from the forum even if you dont , plz dont ruin it for everyone else.

 

[AaronAgassi]

No, just for the record, Simmias is not my sock puppet!

 

[michael in glasgow]

I am Simmias and it's unjust to accuse Aaron like this.

Let me explain why I did this and registered under a pseudonym:

I left this site as Michael over a week ago and did not intend to return. Like Elaeagnus I found more than I had hoped for here and had no further use for the site. Simply put I was no longer lonely. I moved on.

However, since my success story was similar to the one already posted I decided not to post mine straight away. But one thing had bothered me terribly about this site and it was the way I saw Aaron trying, in his own way, to help others by engaging them in penetrating dialogue. I admired his efforts although I sometimes found his attempts insensitive. Nevertheless, he has more posts than most here and I cannot see him as a troll.

So, I decided to PM him in my own name and offer him the dialogue I could see him seeking. My hope was not that I would have any issues of my own resolved but that others would see the method and perhaps adopt it for themselves. It was done in a dedicated thread so as not to disturb others.

Now, I am not very good at this but I thought I'd try and that maybe others would join in at which point I would fade out and only visit this site every few weeks or so.

In the end I lost interest not with the dialogue but because of the way my friend's thread was trashed. I gave up in despair, frankly.

But I won't see someone accused of underhand behaviour. Aaron has been nothing but honest and, although I am frustrated by trying to fit what I say into the pattern he prefers I do hope

a) Others see the benefit of it and
b) It finds a level of vocabulary that is accessible to all.

The Socratic method is tried over thousands of years and cannot be easily dismissed.

Was my attempt misguided? No, I wasn't up to what was required, technically, and I had no further interest in causing frustration.

But before we talk of sock puppets let's consider this: I used a new name as I only intended to address this one issue in this one thread. Aaron and I are among the few people who use personal information in our screen names. Neither of us are underhand, even though I went anonymous for this purpose.

Aaron- I'm sorry this never worked but people are more than logical. I react when I see a friend of mine dismissed when they have been brave and honest. I no longer wished to carry on a dialogue with a person who would do that. I offered that link to add context to out discussion, not to see you hijack a thread that can bring hope to others.

Still, everything I said in the PMs I sent to you still applies. I wish you luck and happiness. I also hope you find a way to use your dialectic talent because I believe your concern for others is genuine. But, honestly, is there any point in continuing with it when you receive but one response?
I'll offer the type of advice you don't like now and I hope you accept that it is in good faith: Find a more gentle way to express both your frustration and your points. We are people here, not philosophers.

And this time I'm really gone. All the best to all of you, I really do wish you well.

Michael

ps- I may still post my own success story if that thread is repaired but THAT will be my final post.

 

[mimizu]

Where is Eleagnus's success story?
edit: ok, found it.
So, since Eleagnus's friend is mysterious, and yours is as well, but both of you are no longer lonely... I guess you found each other.