On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

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ardour said:
I prefer not to think of dating as a dance where one person gets to sit back and judge the efforts of the other to lead.

With dating and marriage, there is normally a dominant and a submissive partner. This even happens in friendships. The strength of the dominance or submission depends on the couple, but that's the standard model for couples that I've seen. Sometimes you'll see an equal pairing where one is dominant is some ways and the other is dominant in others, but I mostly see the traditional alpha/beta model in relationships. The genders can assume either alpha or beta role. And, of course, you are certainly free to oppose the traditional model if it works better for you.

ardour said:
At what point is the dance supposed to end and people start to relate on equal terms, 6 months? Man loses confidence and will to take charge; instant deal breaker. There's no trust in that kind of relationship.

The dance analogy is not a literal comparison. It's symbolic of the romantic ritual, and the man's traditional role in pursuing women. Also, I wasn't talking about trust. I was talking about initial attraction and early dating customs. A long relationship always changes over time. Into what depends on the couple.
 
Case said:
The dance analogy is not a literal comparison. It's symbolic of the romantic ritual, and the man's traditional role in pursuing women. Also, I wasn't talking about trust. I was talking about initial attraction and early dating customs. A long relationship always changes over time. Into what depends on the couple.

I'm aware it wasn't literal, I'm not a half wit...well not to that degree.
In my parent's day it wasn't an issue since they were of course expected to stay married past the courtship phase after women's interest levels might have dropped.

There exists no societal blueprint for men to "lead" now in relationships except in vague advice and PUA nonsense. Result - idiot aggressive men are successful since their behavior most closely mirrors the dominant role, while the rest of us are dismissed as dull. Not that I desire a road map, I dislike gender roles.
 
I hate to perpetuate this conversation as it just seems to be going in circles, but...

TheSkaFish said:
What's made me mean is that I consider myself at least half-decent, yet I'm getting passed over here. I've never robbed anyone, vandalized property, picked fights, done hard drugs, etc. nor do I want to. But the people who have are the ones who get first choice in life because they are oh so cool. It angers me, it's really started to jade me.

TheSkaFish said:
Yes, I'm mean. I'm mean because of what's happened, I'm mean because of how the attraction process works, and I'm mean when I see lousy people get whatever they want, and their very stupid and furthermore actual bad traits, much worse than anything I've ever done, are all water under the bridge. It's jaded me. Besides, being nice just gets me honeysuckle on. I've had enough of it.

When 2cats said you were mean, she was clearly referring to the way you speak of the women you aren't interested in.

If by your logic you are mean because you are angry that these "bad boys" seem to get all the "good" women and you as a "nice guy" seem to get nothing, then why is the brunt of your mean commentary directed towards the women you want nothing to do with, rather than the women who have chosen these terrible men?

Frankly I don't think you should be angry at anyone in this situation, but that aside: The people who have done the least to you are the ones you're being cruelest to. I just find it curious that you have nothing but adoration and desire for these women who by your own account have horrible judgement and don't find you attractive enough, but you can't seem to say enough mean things about the women who (as you have stated) might be attracted to you.
 
ardour said:
The question arises then what happens over the long term, which is where trust comes into it. In my parent's day it wasn't an issue since they were expected to stay married past the courtship phase after women's interest levels would have dropped.

That's entering speculative territory, so I honestly don't know what would happen.
 
Case said:
TheSkaFish said:
Since I and maybe others reading don't seem to know how to connect to a woman's emotional core, could you elaborate? In particular, could you provide examples of:
-making her feel wanted -
Example: Saying, "Wow. You look delicious tonight." Yes. I've actually said that.
-not being so nice all the time -
Example: If you disagree with her about something, say so. Don't be an ******* about it, but don't lie and hide behind niceties because you fear she might get up and leave. And if she does get up and leave because you disagreed, good riddance. Who wants to date someone who can't handle a little disagreement?
-teasing her in a flirtatious manner -
Example: If a woman swears on a date, I could say, "I had no idea I was dating a sailor." With the smile, and given the right tone, she will probably punch me in the shoulder. (Trust me. You want a women to punch you in the shoulder like that. It's part of the back-and-forth of the flirt. But be mindful. Know the difference between a light tease and an insult.)
-keeping the interactions playful and fun, -
Example: Jokes, jokes, and more jokes. Joke about yourself, joke about her (lightly), joke about the bar you're at, etc. Learn them, say them, love them. Every woman likes a sense of humor.
-being an exciting, interesting person in a dating/relationship context -
Examples: Be funny, have hobbies, play sports, have friends away from her, and be busy. Make her know that you will not need her to be your entertainment 100% of the time.

Thanks, Case. I literally need this spelled out for me in instructions, just like this. The part that everyone else seems to have that lets them know how these things go, for me, is totally missing. When it comes to flirting, teasing, and creating masculine attraction I am utterly lost.
 
I know I must be late to this thread but I'm sorry you had to go through this, he doesn't seem like a nice guy at all. My whole life I got a lot of not so nice guys in my life and if they were playing off as nice, they simply just wanted to have sex with me. Now I'm kinda cautious to nice guys even, cause it's hard to tell if their simply being nice or just looking to get laid. However you deserve to be treated with respect. =)

In case I wrote to this thread already, I've been running into a lot of guys like this; online even. They simply talk to me and than ask me for a nude picture after being nice to me over a few amount of days. I find this to be sick in my opinion, I hate sending nude pictures to guys, who knows they might put it up on every web site out there. Whenever guys are really nice to me, sometimes I question their motives on what they want.
 
Online dating sucks; it's so contrived and superficial. I feel like it's almost like a resume, where some people aren't great at writing them but excel at their trade. I think the best way to meet someone is to do it the old-fashioned way and go out in person and physically talk to people. Just my 2¢.
 
WallflowerGirl83 said:
I know I must be late to this thread but I'm sorry you had to go through this, he doesn't seem like a nice guy at all. My whole life I got a lot of not so nice guys in my life and if they were playing off as nice, they simply just wanted to have sex with me. Now I'm kinda cautious to nice guys even, cause it's hard to tell if their simply being nice or just looking to get laid. However you deserve to be treated with respect. =)

In case I wrote to this thread already, I've been running into a lot of guys like this; online even. They simply talk to me and than ask me for a nude picture after being nice to me over a few amount of days. I find this to be sick in my opinion, I hate sending nude pictures to guys, who knows they might put it up on every web site out there. Whenever guys are really nice to me, sometimes I question their motives on what they want.

I hope you didn't send them any.
 
xaero said:
Online dating sucks; it's so contrived and superficial. I feel like it's almost like a resume, where some people aren't great at writing them but excel at their trade. I think the best way to meet someone is to do it the old-fashioned way and go out in person and physically talk to people. Just my 2¢.

I agree to a point. While it's much better to connect with someone face-to-face, I did have a girlfriend two years ago that I met online. It wasn't through a dating site, though. We just found each other on a forum not unlike this one, started chatting, and it escalated into a full-blown, face-to-face relationship. It was great while it lasted.
 
Case said:
I agree to a point. While it's much better to connect with someone face-to-face, I did have a girlfriend two years ago that I met online. It wasn't through a dating site, though. We just found each other on a forum not unlike this one, started chatting, and it escalated into a full-blown, face-to-face relationship. It was great while it lasted.

If you don't mind, how did you escalate things? Was it long-distance? Usually everyone you meet online lives so far away. How did you maintain and increase interest, how did you keep it alive?
 
TheSkaFish said:
If you don't mind, how did you escalate things? Was it long-distance? Usually everyone you meet online lives so far away. How did you maintain and increase interest, how did you keep it alive?

First of all, just to be clear, I am not a pick-up artist. I don't "game" women. I treat them as equals. I'm just a normal guy who has had some successes, some failures, and everything in between. This is an example of two people starting out as friends who found themselves in love.



This friendship started online, as I said. I'm in California, and she was in New York City, so she was 3000 miles away from me. When we first began to PM, she contacted me first and there wasn't any romantic interest. None. Zero. I thought she was cute, but that doesn't mean anything to me if she can't converse. Fortunately, she knew how to carry a conversation. But I didn't start chatting with her with the notion of becoming her boyfriend. To me, she was just a nice person that I enjoyed PM'ing. That's it.

After a while, we realized that neither of us were jerks or flakes, and since the PMs were a success, she gave me her phone number. We started having some marathon phone calls. We texted each other every day. It was some great times and some great conversations. She was just really nice to me (and vice versa,) she matched my temperament quite well (which is calm, relaxed, and laid-back,) and we went from there. We just talked about anything and everything. I talked to her as I would with my best friend.

In the beginning, we were building a comfort level with each other with polite conversation that evolved into talking about our deepest emotions and some of our darkest secrets. We'd joke a bit, talk about our passions, our childhoods, and I realized that I was liking her more and more. She was a great person, intelligent, attractive, kind, warm, and a lot of the things I desired in a companion.

It was then that I noticed the butterflies in my stomach, the staring at her pic just a little longer than before, and the feelings of anticipation when I'd dial her up again. Yes, I had started to develop feelings for her.

So, just to have a little fun, I started to make small, subtle sexual innuendos. Nothing gross or graphic. But it was a test to see if she was receptive.

For example, if she said anything even remotely sexual, I'd lower my voice and say, "Oh, yeaaahhhh," (kinda like George Takei's "Ohhh, myyyyyyy,") which made her laugh. Even if it was something completely non-sexual, I'd occasionally make it sound like she said the most erotic thing imaginable. Like, if she said, "I love strawberries," I'd go into an over-exaggerated, sexy voice and say, "Oh, I bet you love OTHER things, as well." Again, she'd laugh because I was being purposefully funny about it, but I was also suggesting to her that I liked her without me having to say it outright. (Disclaimer: If I didn't hear her laugh, or if I felt in any way that this kind of talk was making things awkward, then I would stop the innuendos immediately. Fortunately, she was totally on board.) Soon, she started making her own innuendos at ME, and that was MY cue that she was on the same page, and maybe it was time to climb the next step of the ladder.

After a while of mixing the playful chit-chat with serious conversation, I felt that we really liked each other, but neither of us had said anything about it yet. So, I just opened up that can of worms myself. lol - One day I just told her I had feelings for her. Straight up, no filter, and no fear. (This approach had backfired on me horribly in the past, so it was definitely a risk. But, as it is said, "No risk, no reward.) Amazingly, she said she had feelings for me, too.

And that's how it went from friends to "more than friends." From the first PM to the "I have feelings for you, too" bit, four months of communication happened. It wasn't long after the end of that four months that we were making plans to meet.

Ah, good times.
 
Case said:
This friendship started online, as I said. I'm in California, and she was in New York City, so she was 3000 miles away from me. When we first began to PM, she contacted me first and there wasn't any romantic interest. None. Zero. I thought she was cute, but that doesn't mean anything to me if she can't converse. Fortunately, she knew how to carry a conversation. But I didn't start chatting with her with the notion of becoming her boyfriend. To me, she was just a nice person that I enjoyed PM'ing. That's it.

Yea, that's just like the distance problems I have. Everyone I have ever truly liked has lived states away. Or in one case another country (albeit Canada, English-speaking and relatively easy to get to from the US).

Anyway. When you said there was zero interest at the start, does that just mean there was zero interest on your end, or on hers also?
 
TheSkaFish said:
Yea, that's just like the distance problems I have. Everyone I have ever truly liked has lived states away. Or in one case another country (albeit Canada, English-speaking and relatively easy to get to from the US).

Honestly, distance is what ended it. Neither of us were able to move closer, so it became clear that we would never truly be together. It was sad, actually. It's one reason I haven't pursued any long distance "dating" ever since. I am fine with long distance friends, and if a friend becomes "more" in the future, I just hope we'd be able to be physically together beyond the occasional vacation trip.

TheSkaFish said:
Anyway. When you said there was zero interest at the start, does that just mean there was zero interest on your end, or on hers also?

I can't speak to her intentions, but her initial feelings were that she wasn't interested in any relationship. So, there was definitely a change over time from both of us.
 
Case said:
I can't speak to her intentions, but her initial feelings were that she wasn't interested in any relationship. So, there was definitely a change over time from both of us.

Ah. See, that's what this site needs more of, if you ask me. Proof that things can work, at least for a while, or at least something that isn't a flat-out rejection or a blow-off. Proof that it can be done. Thanks for sharing.
 
TheSkaFish said:
Ah. See, that's what this site needs more of, if you ask me. Proof that things can work, at least for a while, or at least something that isn't a flat-out rejection or a blow-off. Proof that it can be done. Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome, Ska. Maybe there could be a thread on how couples met and how they eventually lead to romance. It could be inspiring.
 
I'm not a virgin but I sure feel like one saying that I want to go on a date. I used to go out with girls often, to the mall or movies but those girls had no interest in me romantically.
 
Sorry you got one of the bad ones, online dating can be hit or miss, that I know all too well, I met someone online back in the old chat room days that I thought might have been the one, then we met in rl and she decided I wasn't the one.

There are guys out there just looking for some company, that want to go out and have some fun with someone of the opposite sex without expecting something just for spending money, might have to go through a lot of bad apples to find the one without the worm in it.

Good luck on the continuing quest.
 

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