Self-esteem pretty wrecked from online dating

[ardour]

This is probably the experience of most. Women generally find a small percentage of men attractive based on appearances. They don't get to be around you and see anything else. Instead it's just a face, in a situation that, from their perspective, immediately puts you in a less appealing light - "another loser who can't find a date in the real world" "probably a creep" etc. A man would need to be a lot better than average looking to override those negative perceptions imo.

If it were me I wouldn't expect one like, not ever, and I'd be floored and suspicious if anyone did like my profile based on a photo (what Tinder is about)

 

[MisterLonely]

This is probably the experience of most. Women generally find a small percentage of men attractive based on appearances. They don't get to be around you and see anything else. Instead it's just a face, in a situation that, from their perspective, immediately puts you in a less appealing light  - "another loser who can't find a date in the real world"  "probably a creep" etc.  A man would need to be a lot better than average looking to override those negative perceptions imo.

If it were me I wouldn't expect one like, not ever, and I'd be floored and suspicious if anyone did  like my profile based on a photo (what Tinder is about)

I think this probably applies to all genders, their will also be lots of women thinking to themselves "How can I compete with all those beautiful women" or "I'm way to ugly to get likes", they might just aswell be suspicious when someone who is "attractive" likes them.

The negative perceptions you're talking about ofcourse do exist, it's called shallowness and there isn't anything wrong with it, because a shallow person will eventually find another shallow person, and they will spend their perfectly shallow lives together, that is untill they find someone more shallow to fit them.

This is Darwinism at it's best. Some people are shallow, some are not, try not to let it stop you from being who you are and trying new things.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

This is probably the experience of most. Women generally find a small percentage of men attractive based on appearances. They don't get to be around you and see anything else. Instead it's just a face, in a situation that, from their perspective, immediately puts you in a less appealing light  - "another loser who can't find a date in the real world"  "probably a creep" etc.  A man would need to be a lot better than average looking to override those negative perceptions imo.

If it were me I wouldn't expect one like, not ever, and I'd be floored and suspicious if anyone did  like my profile based on a photo (what Tinder is about)

I think this probably applies to all genders, their will also be lots of women thinking to themselves "How can I compete with all those beautiful women" or "I'm way to ugly to get likes", they might just aswell be suspicious when someone who is "attractive" likes them.

The negative perceptions you're talking about ofcourse do exist, it's called shallowness and there isn't anything wrong with it, because a shallow person will eventually find another shallow person, and they will spend their perfectly shallow lives together, that is untill they find someone more shallow to fit them.

This is Darwinism at it's best. Some people are shallow, some are not, try not to let it stop you from being who you are and trying new things.

I agree and disagree. The problem here is female and male dating habits in the modern world. Yes, with the obligatory disclaimer that should really go without saying that "not everyone" and "there are exceptions, not sexism", but... there are differences. Women get approached more, they tend to be pickier, while men will likely message every girl they match with. Women don't need to worry about "competing" as much as men do, at least not directlly as such.

I know this because of my female friends. Most of them will refuse to ever, EVER talk to a guy first, partly because they don't have to. I've said this story before, but an attractive female friend of mine made a profile on OKCupid and had 140 guys liking her profile in 24 hours. They get approached in clubs when we go out, get guys trying to dance with them, the works. And sure, a lot of women will make the argument here that a lot of those guys are creeps and/or only after sex. Whilst there is a lot of truth to this, the ultimate point is, women usually have a selection.


I mean, at least here in the UK, 70-80 percent of the profiles for girls on Tinder for example that actually have a **** profile, without exaggeration, read "I like food, naps, and dogs". I'm not even joking, that's what they write in their description: two things that are LITERALLY essential for human functionality and an animal that 99% of people find adorable. Then they'll write something like "I love a guy with tattoos and beards, don't just message something like 'hey what's up', it's boring". And it's not like they're usually amazing looking girls either who just get attention by being stunningly gorgeous.
Now if my profile basically said "I like having a roof over my head and not being stabbed to death" followed by "I'd really love a girl with blue hair and nipple piercings", I'd be committing romantic suicide.

Yes, men and women are both human, with human emotions, human insecurities and human problems. But when it comes to the modern dating world, there's some pretty big differences. And it does seems like men need to put a lot more focus on impressing their potential date than women do most of the time.

 

[ardour]

I agree and disagree. The problem here is female and male dating habits in the modern world. Yes, with the obligatory disclaimer that should really go without saying that "not everyone" and "there are exceptions, not sexism", but... there are differences. Women get approached more, they tend to be pickier, while men will likely message every girl they match with. Women don't need to worry about "competing" as much as men do, at least not directlly as such.

I know this because of my female friends. Most of them will refuse to ever, EVER talk to a guy first, partly because they don't have to. I've said this story before, but an attractive female friend of mine made a profile on OKCupid and had 140 guys liking her profile in 24 hours. They get approached in clubs when we go out, get guys trying to dance with them, the works. And sure, a lot of women will make the argument here that a lot of those guys are creeps and/or only after sex. Whilst there is a lot of truth to this, the ultimate point is, women usually have a selection.


I mean, at least here in the UK, 70-80 percent of the profiles for girls on Tinder for example that actually have a **** profile, without exaggeration, read "I like food, naps, and dogs". I'm not even joking, that's what they write in their description: two things that are LITERALLY essential for human functionality and an animal that 99% of people find adorable. Then they'll write something like "I love a guy with tattoos and beards, don't just message something like 'hey what's up', it's boring". And it's not like they're usually amazing looking girls either who just get attention by being stunningly gorgeous.
Now if my profile basically said "I like having a roof over my head and not being stabbed to death" followed by "I'd really love a girl with blue hair and nipple piercings", I'd be committing romantic suicide.

Yes, men and women are both human, with human emotions, human insecurities and human problems. But when it comes to the modern dating world, there's some pretty big differences. And it does seems like men need to put a lot more focus on impressing their potential date than women do most of the time.

Lol... funny post, but women will fire back and say the being the pursued is in reality not much of an advantage. That their "selection"consists largely of incompatible men who are only interested in sex; that expressing individuality is often considered too aggressive/unfeminine, and that the social norms prevent them from approaching the men they're interested in.

I can't entirely agree though, if there were no advantages in remaining passive things would have changed by now.

 

[TheRealCallie]

^^ A lot of men ARE only interested in sex.....

Not saying women aren't, mind you, so no one needs to go there :club:

 

[MentatsGhoul]

Lol... funny post, but women will fire back and say the being the pursued is in reality not much of an advantage. That their "selection"consists largely of men with little going for them who are only interested in sex; that expressing individuality is often considered too aggressive/unfeminine, and that the social norms prevent them from approaching men they're interested in.

I can't entirely agree with that though, if there were no advantages in remaining passive things would have changed by now.

Probably, saying these things out almost always results in some serious backlash.

Honestly though, what's baffled me about this is it's not like men don't face the same "issue" as well. Finding someone who geniunely blows you away, who honestly matches all the criteria you might want for your ideal partner is rare for ANYONE. I mean, right now I can't get either, but even as a guy I'd have a far more realistic chance of finding a girl who would just be interested in me for sex and wasn't that attratcive to me than I would of finding something "genuine". Plenty of women who just want sex, plenty of women who don't seem to be going anywhere in life and might end up a financial and emotional burden. These issues don't just go away for men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

^^ And you think they do just go away for women?

 

[MentatsGhoul]

^^ And you think they do just go away for women?

.... when did I say that?

 

[TheRealCallie]

^^ And you think they do just go away for women?

.... when did I say that?

You kind of implied it right here...
"Plenty of women who just want sex, plenty of women who don't seem to be going anywhere in life and might end up a financial and emotional burden. These issues don't just go away for men."  

I mean if you had left off the "for men" part, it would have been one thing, but you specifically added that, making it seem as though you think women don't deal with these issues.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

^^ And you think they do just go away for women?

.... when did I say that?

You kind of implied it right here...
"Plenty of women who just want sex, plenty of women who don't seem to be going anywhere in life and might end up a financial and emotional burden. These issues don't just go away for men."  

I mean if you had left off the "for men" part, it would have been one thing, but you specifically added that, making it seem as though you think women don't deal with these issues.

In that case you misinterpreted what I was saying. The reason I added "for men" is because women often refute the point of generally being the more receptive/selective sex when it comes to dating by saying that most of the man they talk to are only interested in sex anyway, but the truth is finding a serious partner for a long term relationahip is tough for anyone.

Honestly I don't think the current dynamic is good for EITHER gender. When a guy is put in the psychological mindset of worrying about how to impress a girl before he even knows her, it's not a good dynamic for a developing relationship and the same goes for the reverse.

Just because I talk about male dating issues, being a man with dating issues myself, doesn't mean I'm out to get women or saying women don't have problems of their own. It's just going to be the perspective I'm writing from. And even when I talk about the female pespective, it's based on things my very close female friends have told me ( yes, believe it or not I talk to women). I'd appreciateit if you didn't try to go out of your way to paint me as some horrible mysoginist when I don't deserve it.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I agree it's tough for anyone and I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you said. With the previous talk, it just kind of went with it.

To me, the problem is the people that think they should just be able to go out, without putting a whole lot of effort into it and get the girl (or man) of their dreams. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work when someone wants to blame the other gender or even their own gender. It doesn't work when people want to put the blame on anyone else. No, not all circumstances are ideal, but to put labels on it and blame others does nothing but add to the problem.

I never said you were a misogynist and I didn't think you were. If anything I just figured you were another one of those that blame others for not getting what you want.

 

[EveWasFramed]

Since I don't own a phone, I have no idea how the mobile dating apps work.

Now, on dating sites, women usually couldn't care less if you "liked" them. They want someone to send them a message. Then they can ignore it or reply. After a day or 2 on the site, they will have been flooded with so many fake messages or obscene messages that they give up and quit.
So if it's a dating website, you will have to do more than "like" them.

Unless you are too old to date, like me, in which case you won't get a response even if you offer them $1 million. ha ha ha!

I'm older than you and I dated. 
You sell yourself short. You try to be realistic about your state of being, (which is often a good thing) but you don't give yourself any credit. Are you still "looking" or doing anything to help you into other people's spheres?

 

[ardour]

I never said you were a misogynist and I didn't think you were.   If anything I just figured you were another one of those that blame others for not getting what you want.

It's fairly clear that social awkwardness is more of an impediment for men and acknowledging that isn't necessarily about apportioning blame.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I never said you were a misogynist and I didn't think you were.   If anything I just figured you were another one of those that blame others for not getting what you want.

It's fairly clear that social awkwardness is more of an impediment for men and acknowledging that isn't necessarily about apportioning blame.

I don't think it is more of an impediment for men.  Even if men do more of the asking, if a girl screws up because of social awkwardness, the guy is just as likely to walk away. 
I know women who act like bitches (more than they really are. lol) to hide their social awkwardness.  I know women who run away simply from someone looking at them.   My point is that there are a million ways that social awkwardness can screw it up for women, even if they don't do the asking.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

I agree it's tough for anyone and I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you said.  With the previous talk, it just kind of went with it.  

To me, the problem is the people that think they should just be able to go out, without putting a whole lot of effort into it and get the girl (or man) of their dreams.  It doesn't work that way.  It doesn't work when someone wants to blame the other gender or even their own gender.  It doesn't work when people want to put the blame on anyone else.  No, not all circumstances are ideal, but to put labels on it and blame others does nothing but add to the problem.  

I never said you were a misogynist and I didn't think you were.   If anything I just figured you were another one of those that blame others for not getting what you want.

That's fair enough.

Personally, I think it is a combination of both. Yes, someone should always take responsibility for their actions and for their life. Society is never going to rework itself for anyone's benefit, and complaining about it without doing anything is pointless. But then, there are times where life just deals you a difficult hand, which is what was the point of this thread for me. I feel I've exhausted pretty much all my options, and all I really do have left is just keep doing the things I'm already doing and hope I eventually get lucky. Problem is... when you're doing the same thing over and over and see no progress, it's a complete killer of motivation, and goes against human instinct. Which is why it can be very psychologically draining.

I don't think "blame" is a great word. Honestly, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to date me or bear them any ill will. I mean, sure, it's frustrating, and I certainly think some of the girls I've encountered could have used a bit more tact and perhaps had some unrealistic expectations, but that's life, they don't owe me anything. Either there was nothing in me that they found worth investing the time it takes to hold a conversation into, or they are ultimately the ones missing out. Still, when it's girl after girl after girl, it can really kill you inside and wreak havoc on your self-confidence.

I guess what I'm complaining about is not dissimilar in a way to the girls who compain about "fuckboys". I mean, morally speaking as long as a guy isn't harassing and isn't pretending he's interested in something more when he isn't, there's nothing wrong with just looking for sex right? But when a girl encounters guy after guy who is just after the same thing, it's likely frustrating to her. The best way I can put it is, sometimes people suck, even when they aren't necessarily bad people.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

I never said you were a misogynist and I didn't think you were.   If anything I just figured you were another one of those that blame others for not getting what you want.

It's fairly clear that social awkwardness is more of an impediment for men and acknowledging that isn't necessarily about apportioning blame.

I don't think it is more of an impediment for men.  Even if men do more of the asking, if a girl screws up because of social awkwardness, the guy is just as likely to walk away. 
I know women who act like bitches (more than they really are. lol) to hide their social awkwardness.  I know women who run away simply from someone looking at them.   My point is that there are a million ways that social awkwardness can screw it up for women, even if they don't do the asking.

I'm really not trying to bait this back into an argument, but it really is hard to exaggerate just HOW much pressure it is for men. In my experience, it's not even if you say something awkward, it's if you're not 100% charismatic and funny and engaging all the time. You can't open with "Hey, what's up, how are you" EVER, or you'll get ignored because your opening wasn't good. If she does respond, but you don't keep the conversation 100% engaging throughout, she will instantly ignore you. One message that she can't latch onto, one message that somewhat breaks the flow of the conversation and it's over. And that's not to even mention the fact that even as an above average looking guy I've matched with a total of four girls over probably hundreds I've swiped over the course of what is now almost a month, none of whom I've had an actual conversation with even though I've message all of them.

Clearly I'm not a woman and haven't experienced dating as one, so you are right in the sense that you can't really quantify it, nor do I really think anyone should, because it doesn't matter. But I can talk about what I've gone through (if anything I've underplayed just how bad it is, trust me), and it seems many men's experience has been the same. It's really hard to understand if it's not something you've experienced personally.

 

[ardour]

To be fair, in approaching someone it’s already clear you want something, whereas the same can’t be assumed of the person being approached. If she was interested but still expected the guy to carry the interaction then that would be one thing, but you can’t really know that. There’s a very good chance the aloofness is due to a lot less interest (or a complete lack of it ) rather than some deliberate strategy, just as it would be for you if someone you weren’t attracted to tried to strike up a conversation out of the blue. I think a better question would be ‘why are women’s interest levels never enough to compel them to overcome social conventions and approach’. Of course you’ll get all sorts of explanations or feminist criticisms of a statement like that.

My theory is that a near majority of the male population just aren't all that appealing, appearance wise and for other reasons, and so this is the life experience of many men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

You can't open with "Hey, what's up, how are you" EVER, or you'll get ignored because your opening wasn't good. If she does respond, but you don't keep the conversation 100% engaging throughout, she will instantly ignore you.

Nearly every single one of my exes opened with "hey, what's up".....

It's not entirely on the guy to keep the conversation going, but as Ardour said, once you go up to her, she's going to know you want something, so you have to have something else besides "hey, what's up." 

Who are these shallow ******* girls that you seem to only encounter?

---

To be fair, in approaching someone it’s already clear you want something, whereas the same can’t be assumed of the person being approached. If she was interested but still expected the guy to carry the interaction then that would be one thing, but you can’t really know that.  There’s a very good chance the aloofness is due to  a lot less interest (or a complete  lack of it ) rather than some deliberate strategy, just as it would be for you if someone you weren’t attracted to tried to strike up a conversation out of the blue.   I think a better question would be ‘why are women’s interest levels never enough to compel them to overcome social conventions and approach’. Of course you’ll get all sorts of explanations or feminist criticisms of a  statement like that.

My theory is that  the  a near majority of the male population just aren't that appealing, and so this is life experience of many men.

I approach all the time.  If I see a guy I think I'd want to get to know better, I go talk to him.  I think more women approach guys than you realize or are willing to admit, whichever the case may be.

 

[Restless soul]

You can't open with "Hey, what's up, how are you" EVER, or you'll get ignored because your opening wasn't good. If she does respond, but you don't keep the conversation 100% engaging throughout, she will instantly ignore you.

Nearly every single one of my exes opened with "hey, what's up".....

It's not entirely on the guy to keep the conversation going, but as Ardour said, once you go up to her, she's going to know you want something, so you have to have something else besides "hey, what's up." 

Who are these shallow ******* girls that you seem to only encounter?

---

To be fair, in approaching someone it’s already clear you want something, whereas the same can’t be assumed of the person being approached. If she was interested but still expected the guy to carry the interaction then that would be one thing, but you can’t really know that.  There’s a very good chance the aloofness is due to  a lot less interest (or a complete  lack of it ) rather than some deliberate strategy, just as it would be for you if someone you weren’t attracted to tried to strike up a conversation out of the blue.   I think a better question would be ‘why are women’s interest levels never enough to compel them to overcome social conventions and approach’. Of course you’ll get all sorts of explanations or feminist criticisms of a  statement like that.

My theory is that  the  a near majority of the male population just aren't that appealing, and so this is life experience of many men.

I approach all the time.  If I see a guy I think I'd want to get to know better, I go talk to him.  I think more women approach guys than you realize or are willing to admit, whichever the case may be.

---

Come at me, callie!!

 

[DarkSelene]

In my experience, it's not even if you say something awkward, it's if you're not 100% charismatic and funny and engaging all the time. You can't open with "Hey, what's up, how are you" EVER, or you'll get ignored because your opening wasn't good. If she does respond, but you don't keep the conversation 100% engaging throughout, she will instantly ignore you. One message that she can't latch onto, one message that somewhat breaks the flow of the conversation and it's over.

I think that the one thing you seem to forget here is that you're trying to approach people on Tinder.
Let's say women do end up with more matches, it's not a rule but generalizing it might not be completely wrong, they have 20 guys sending them the same "Hey, what's up" message everyday. The one person that sticks out with a fairly more amusing message will be the one she'll probably try talking to. I could make a point here that this is the opposite of being shallow, since they're going for the good conversation and not only the nice looking dudes... though, whatever, everyone that uses an app like that is being shallow at that particular moment. It's about choosing people like they're on a menu.

My advice to you is stop using Tinder, unless you want something very meaningless and you don't care about the outcome - which I don't think is the case here. Try to meet someone that actually wants to have a conversation and then you'll see that women are not just socializing with who they think are the best to be a potential baby daddy or looks like Ryan Gosling (or whatever dude women think is hot), they actually like to interact, connect, exchange ideas - and not just with whom they're interested in either. 

The effect that a match would do to your self-esteem can't even be compared to the feeling of someone actually wanting your company. Don't waste your time with meaningless, dude.