Workplace Secrets

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

They're kids, not criminals :l

No, many of them probably ARE criminals...and the rest are criminals in training.

----Steve

and you're going to be a teacher? lol

 

[cheaptrickfan]

and you're going to be a teacher? lol

That reminds me of something that happened in one of my Education classes. It was a graduate course, so 99% of my fellow students were already teachers in the public school system. We were having a discussion on effective discipline strategies when this one guy spoke up and said, "Well, some kids are just born, you know... bad, and there's nothing you can do."

Holy crapola, did he get his ass pounced on, especially by the Elementary Ed teachers. And these were the nice, smiley, happy-looking women who you always see as Kindergarten teacher, y'know? honeysuckle. They laid into him and practically vivisected him.

That class was not my favorite because the teacher only tolerated certain points of view and anyone whose own opinion fell outside her norm (like that guy, who never spoke another word in the class again) was not tolerated. As a consequence, there was no real intellectual discourse. :/

 

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

well, that's no good either..

so you've been a teacher then CTF.. do YOU think some kids are just born bad? destined to be criminals and there is nothing that can be done about it.. just sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show?

 

[cheaptrickfan]

well, that's no good either..

so you've been a teacher then CTF.. do YOU think some kids are just born bad? destined to be criminals and there is nothing that can be done about it.. just sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show?

Honestly, I think that there are very few cases where someone is "born bad." I think that people are socialized bad all the time. Environment counts for a lot, but it's not the final factor. You can have two siblings raised in the same environment, but they can turn out quite differently. That depends on the individual inside - his or her own beliefs, drives etc.

Also, I think it is unfair to put the burden of "saving" some kids squarely on the public education system and criticise the teachers for failing to save kids from themselves and their environment when really society is partly to blame for allowing parents to destroy their kids, but I don't think that they should be thrown out with the trash either.

It's a frustrating situation to be in, when you can see what some kids need and you try to give it to them, but really it requires a lot of your extra time. You may not have that time to spare, because it comes at the expense of the other kids in the classroom and their needs. Plus there are the external demands of testing. IMO, lots of these tests are not a truly valid indicator of learning or knowledge, but teachers are forced by mandate to teach to those damned tests, and that can also take away from real learning.

Then there are those kids who need so much and you just can't give it to them (for whatever reason) and you spend the bulk of your time on classroom discipline and very little of it goes to anything remotely like education.

It can be extremely frustrating.

 

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

it sounds pretty frustrating..

i drove a school bus for a short time for disadvantaged immigrant children in a rough area of adelaide.. they were a really cool bunch and very varied.. i didn't do it for very long but talking to the other drivers i heard of plenty of 'discipline' problems just ON the buses.. fights, swearing.. etc.. i was lucky enough not to have to break up any fights but there was plenty of swearing and breaking of the rules.. (like eating and drinking).. actually i let them eat and drink if they wanted to as long as they would clean up after themselves.. after the first day they got this privilege one of the youger ones got too excited and a teacher heard about it and i got a talking to .. lol

oh well.. i still wont forget a bus full (24 kids) yelling in unison "Go Mr Adrian, Go Mr Adrian!" (er.. that's my name btw) as we tried to outrace the bus next to us... lol

i learnt a bit about discipline.. i'm not very good at it..

 

[Minus]

My university is well-known for its large number of foreign students...

It isn't just foreign students. I have seen out of town students leave all kinds of things behind either because they didn't want to haul everything back home or didn't have the room to transport it all. It is amazing what all you can find after they leave for the summer.

lol I worked at a fast food resturant and I witnessed some nasty stuff going on in the kitchen.

I don't even want to imagine, after what you can see on the floor. A lady picking her nose as she goes around serving the food. A waiter who carries his clipboard stuffed down his pants. It keeps his hands free to serve food and when he needs to write an order all he has to do is dig down his pants and he has his clipboard.

 

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

It keeps his hands free to serve food and when he needs to write an order all he has to do is dig down his pants and he has his clipboard.

lol

 

[cheaptrickfan]

oh well.. i still wont forget a bus full (24 kids) yelling in unison "Go Mr Adrian, Go Mr Adrian!" (er.. that's my name btw) as we tried to outrace the bus next to us... lol

i learnt a bit about discipline.. i'm not very good at it..

LOL!

Discipline can be very ineffective if there is no support system for it. If a teacher sends a kid to the office and nothing happens, what lesson has the kid learned? Um, that he or she can act up in class and then get out of class and get to sit around for a while.

WTF?

Those "Time-Outs" have no good disciplinary function as a punishment itself. Same goes with dealing with your own kids. I use a time-out as a means of controlling my anger and getting the kids to cool off, but then- and this is important- we have to deal with the behavior. Y'know?

In either case, whether at school or at home, it takes effort. Harried teachers and administrators may feel that there is little that they can do though.

Really, sometimes I despair of our society.

 

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

i like that.. the 'time outs' are more for the parent/guardian than the child.. lol maybe that's not such a bad thing.. everyone can just cool off a bit.

from watching parenting shows (of which i am a fan) i noticed that the time-out method has to be coupled with an explanation for why it occurred.. the child has to be made aware of the kind of behaviour that won't be tolerated.. but they themselves are still loved and accepted.. i've SEEN it on tv but would imagine in reality it would all be a bit more blurry and less clear cut..

my parenting skills stretch to taking care of my cats and well, frankly they run the show..

when i was driving the kids around i floundered at the start and felt all control being lost so i asked for some advice from one of the oldies and they suggested i threaten them with their parents being informed of their behaviour.. i tell you.. it worked a charm, most of them were scared shitless of their parents knowing what they were up to..

i also had 'report tickets' i could fill out and give to their teachers.. this worked well too.. at the end of my time with the job though i had more than 20 'behaviour tickets' that i never gave to the teachers.. just dumped them..

they're just kids.. i am glad i could give them a break.. the world is shitty enough.

 

[cheaptrickfan]

i like that.. the 'time outs' are more for the parent/guardian than the child.. lol maybe that's not such a bad thing.. everyone can just cool off a bit.

from watching parenting shows (of which i am a fan) i noticed that the time-out method has to be coupled with an explanation for why it occurred.. the child has to be made aware of the kind of behaviour that won't be tolerated.. but they themselves are still loved and accepted.. i've SEEN it on tv but would imagine in reality it would all be a bit more blurry and less clear cut..

Yeah, you have to follow up after the time out. Some people just treat the time out itself as a punishment and leave it at that, but what does that really do? Kids need to be socialized, and as parents, we have a lot of responsibility to get them started thinking about what they are doing and WHY they are doing it. If they do something wrong, they need to understand why it's wrong, not just that it's wrong "because I said so, that's why." It takes work. I'm not perfect, but I do try my best. At this point, my kids are still open to heart-to-heart talks with Mommy, so I have to hope that I can instill something in them that is going to stick with them.

I really do think that some kids get started on misbehaving because it's a quick way to get their parents' attention. They may continue on with it because they like what they can get away with whether it's stealing stuff, bullying other kids to build up their own self-esteem, or getting high and drunk or whatever.

I tell you, the thought of the teen years really gets my stomach in knots. I hear horror stories from my friends who have daughters a bit older than mine. Holy crap.

my parenting skills stretch to taking care of my cats and well, frankly they run the show..

Oh, no kidding. With my kids, I can reason with them about broccoli. If worse comes to worst, then I say, "You're right, you don't have to eat it, but then, next meal's breakfast."


With the damned cat, he just keeps meowing at me or lying in the middle of the kitchen floor putting me in peril until someone changes his food.

 

[Badjedidude]

and you're going to be a teacher? lol

Yup. It's a sad fact, but some kids are just unreachable. It may be horrible to admit that...and most teachers would completely flip out at hearing that, because their entire career and education as teachers, they've been told that kids can be fixed...

...but not all of them can. When you're a teacher, you have a kid for maybe one year. MAYBE. If he or she is a trouble-maker or a problem child, then they might not even be at school for all of the assigned days. How the hell are you supposed to fix years of emotional/psychological abuse or turmoil in a kid just by seeing them for an hour or two a couple days a week for only a few months?

If I were a therapist or a psychologist, then maybe it would be possible...but you have to remember that I could also have an ENTIRE CLASS (or two classes, or more) of kids to take care of. If I took the time to try and fully involve myself in every child's problems, I'd go insane....because it's impossible. Besides, I'm a highschool dude. By the time a kid would come to me, they're so deep in their psychological/emotional problems that it most likely can't be fixed by me.

So yeah...unfortunately, some kids just can't be reached. I can do whatever I can, yeah...and I can try hard to make things go well for all of 'em...but I can't do everything. And I'm not going to kill myself trying to do the impossible.

----Steve

 

[SophiaGrace]

With the damned cat, he just keeps meowing at me or lying in the middle of the kitchen floor putting me in peril until someone changes his food.

LMAO!

 

[iwasaloverb4thiswar]

So yeah...unfortunately, some kids just can't be reached. I can do whatever I can, yeah...and I can try hard to make things go well for all of 'em...but I can't do everything. And I'm not going to kill myself trying to do the impossible.

----Steve

Well, and it's not really your job or objective to fix them. Best you can really do is provide a safe and stable environment, if only for a few hours out of their day where hopefully they can gain some perspective, some confidence in themselves, and some direction for their life. Ultimately only they can really save themselves, but it takes exposure to healthy environments to enable them, and you do the best you can.

---

it sounds pretty frustrating..

i drove a school bus for a short time for disadvantaged immigrant children in a rough area of adelaide.. they were a really cool bunch and very varied.. i didn't do it for very long but talking to the other drivers i heard of plenty of 'discipline' problems just ON the buses.. fights, swearing.. etc.. i was lucky enough not to have to break up any fights but there was plenty of swearing and breaking of the rules.. (like eating and drinking).. actually i let them eat and drink if they wanted to as long as they would clean up after themselves.. after the first day they got this privilege one of the youger ones got too excited and a teacher heard about it and i got a talking to .. lol

oh well.. i still wont forget a bus full (24 kids) yelling in unison "Go Mr Adrian, Go Mr Adrian!" (er.. that's my name btw) as we tried to outrace the bus next to us... lol

i learnt a bit about discipline.. i'm not very good at it..

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww I rode the school bus for nearly my entire public education, and you just brought back some fond memories of a few bus drivers. Funny enough, of all the teachers and administrators, the bus drivers seemed to be the most connected to the kids and their families. I guess because they got to see what the kid went home to, got to see them in the context of their lives as other human beings. Truly some of the kindest, funniest, most down to earth people. You sound like one of the good ones

 

[PoWer2tHePeOpLE]

and you're going to be a teacher? lol

And I'm not going to kill myself trying to do the impossible.

----Steve

yeah, i get it dude.. teachers have a limited time with their pupils and are generally underfunded and overstressed.. they really don't get the acknowledgement they deserve..

for what it's worth i think you would make a good teacher.. (because i've known you for many, many wonderful years and know you're a good man)

i just thought it was funny when you wrote..'they're all little criminals or criminals in the making.. *shrug* hehe..

---

--iwasaloverb4thiswar--
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww I rode the school bus for nearly my entire public education, and you just brought back some fond memories of a few bus drivers. Funny enough, of all the teachers and administrators, the bus drivers seemed to be the most connected to the kids and their families. I guess because they got to see what the kid went home to, got to see them in the context of their lives as other human beings. Truly some of the kindest, funniest, most down to earth people. You sound like one of the good ones


yeah, the drivers i met were good people.. and really deserved more pay for the job they did.. they were all older too with kids of their own so they had a lot of experience to draw from.. i felt a little out of my depth.. it's hard to control 24 screaming wild chaos-balls while focussing on the road at the same time.. there really should have been a teacher present..

they do grow on you though.. even the ones that didn't like me

 

[SophiaGrace]

They're kids, not criminals :l

No, many of them probably ARE criminals...and the rest are criminals in training.

----Steve

No Steve, they are delinquent children. Stop ascribing adult-like qualities to kids! Hello, they are juveniles!

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,110232,00.html

When a child kills, does he instantly become an adult? Or does he maintain some trappings of childhood, despite the gravity of his actions?
These are the questions plaguing the American legal system today, as the violent acts of juvenile offenders continue to make headlines.

Wednesday, 14-year-old Nathaniel Brazill was found guilty of second-degree murder for killing his English teacher last year. The charge usually carries a prison term of up to 30 years, but Brazille�s defense team is hopeful the sentencing judge will be more lenient in this case. They have a powerful ally: Jeb Bush. "There is a different standard for children," the governor said after Brazill was sentenced. "There should be some sensitivity that a 14-year-old is not a little adult."

In March, another Florida jury sentenced14-year-old Lionel Tate, who killed a younger girl while practicing wrestling moves on her, to life in prison without parole. The concurrent Brazill and Tate trials served to heighten the public misconception that juvenile violent crime is on the rise; in fact, recent figures show a precipitous drop over the last five years.

Are we seeing a drop because children are thinking more carefully about their crimes, knowing they could receive adult sentences? All but five states allow children of any age charged with murder to be tried as adults. The death penalty generally isn�t an option — at least not for defendants under the age of 16; The U. S. Supreme Court has ruled capital punishment unconstitutional for anyone who hasn�t celebrated their 16th birthday. Some states, however, will consider 16- and 17-year-olds for the death penalty.

Or are there other factors? Defense attorneys might offer a different argument: Since the bulk of the drop-off in juvenile crime predates most states� embrace of harsher penalties for young offenders, it is disingenuous to assume any connection between the two.

The fundamental question is, are children capable of understanding the consequences of their actions? Maybe not; recent studies suggest that the brain�s prefrontal lobe, which some scientists speculate plays a crucial role in inhibiting inappropriate behavior, may not reach full development until age 20.

It�s unlikely that America�s thirst for vengeance will be sated by scientific theory. We are, as a nation, very much in favor of treating child criminals as adults — a recent ABC news poll showed 55 percent of us believe the crime, not the perpetrator�s age, should be the determining factor in sentencing.

Below, a few of the arguments posited by both sides of the juvenile crime debate. At the end, there is an email address; we invite you to send us your comments. Let us know what you think.

Should the U.S. justice system treat juvenile violent offenders as adults?

YES

The end result of a heinous crime remains the same, no matter who commits it. Our justice system depends upon holding perpetrators responsible for their actions.

Harsh sentencing acts as a deterrent to kids who are considering committing crimes. Trying children as adults has coincided with lower rates of juvenile crimes. Light sentences don�t teach kids the lesson they need to learn: If you commit a terrible crime, you will spend a considerable part of your life in jail.

Kids today are more sophisticated at a younger age; they understand the implications of violence and how to use violent weapons. It is absurd to argue that a modern child, who sees the effect of violence around him in the news every day, doesn�t understand what killing really is. The fact that child killers know how to load and shoot a gun is an indicator that they understand exactly what they�re doing.

NO

The juvenile prison system can help kids turn their lives around; rehabilitation gives kids a second chance. Successful rehabilitation, many argue, is better for society in the long run than releasing someone who's spent their entire young adult life in general prison population. A young person released from juvenile prison is far less likely to commit a crime than someone coming out of an adult facility.

Children don't have the intellectual or moral capacity to understand the consequences of their actions; similarly, they lack the same capacity to be trial defendants.

Children shouldn�t be able to get deadly weapons in the first place. Adults who provide kids with guns used in violent crimes should be held at least as accountable as the kids themselves.

It�s remarkably easy to find a seasoned defense lawyer who believes the current system is too vulnerable to racism: Statistically, black juvenile offenders are far more likely to be transferred to adult courts (and serve adult time) than their white peers who�ve committed comparable crimes.



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,110232,00.html#ixzz0hPExVW6b

 

[Badjedidude]

for what it's worth i think you would make a good teacher..

Haha thanks!

No Steve, they are delinquent children. Stop ascribing adult-like qualities to kids! Hello, they are juveniles!

No, I didn't ascribe any adult qualities to them at all. Criminals are criminals, whether they be child or adult. So if a child steals something from the store everyday, it's excusable and they are NOT a criminal?

Yeah, they ARE. If a person commits a crime, they are a criminal. Many inner city students ARE habitual criminals.

----Steve

 

[Brian]

Yeah, they ARE. If a person commits a crime, they are a criminal. Many inner city students ARE habitual criminals.

----Steve

Even rural students are becoming habitual criminals. Whether it's theft, assault, destruction of property or drugs.

1. No meaningful discipline is permitted or encouraged at home or school. Suspension or expulsion is like a free vacation to disneyland for kids who earn it.
2. Ineffective parenting
3. A pop-culture environment promoting 'thug life' and 'ghetto' attitudes, exported from festering hell holes of the inner cities; I'm sure the victim mentality will soon follow; after all, it's The Man's fault and we're not responsible for our actions or efforts.

 

[Badjedidude]

You're absolutely right.

3. A pop-culture environment promoting 'thug life' and 'ghetto' attitudes, exported from festering hell holes of the inner cities; I'm sure the victim mentality will soon follow; after all, it's The Man's fault and we're not responsible for our actions or efforts.

This one just pisses me off soooooo much. People don't take responsibility for ANYTHING anymore. -_-

----Steve

 

[SophiaGrace]

They're juvenile delinquents, not criminals.

 

[Badjedidude]

They're juvenile delinquents, not criminals.

No, they are criminals. I understand that you're a psych person and you want to believe the best of people...

...but they commit crimes, they enjoy committing crimes, and they look forward to committing crimes as their profession in the future. To me, that is the definition of a criminal....a definition that goes beyond age or stage of development.

These aren't just needy kids acting out their abused emotions. They are criminals.

----Steve