Do Pickup Artist manuals work?

[Lonely in BC]

It's interesting that people who are against PUA are usually either women or men who have no problems in the dating game and are happily in relationships.

Weak men develop shyness and insecurity around women because in the stone age, a weak man who made advances towards women would have had a very real chance of being badly injured or even killed by a rival. Thus, it was in the weak man's best interest to avoid contact with women. Conversely, women preferred strong men because they would be more likely to be able to protect her offspring. In today's world, there's no real physical risk in approaching women. PUA takes advantage of this by teaching men who aren't strong how to act strong (or "alpha").

Most men are naturally strong, so this dating comes naturally to them. They see PUA as silly and unnecessary because they are just able to be themselves around women and women are attracted to them. Some men, however, don't properly develop traits like dominance and aggression in their childhood and teenage years. They are biologically male, but their personalities and physical appearances resemble per-pubescent boys more than adults. Indeed, few women want to date a 25 year old kissless virgin man-child. They might find him amusing, in a friendly little-brother sort of way, but they won't consider dating him. The man-child still has a chance on his own, but he has to make up years of lost time other men used to gain experience in the dating market. This can be hard to do because despite effectively being a child in the dating market, he still has adult responsibilities, such as working full time and paying bills. He doesn't have the leisure time that's afforded to children and teenagers that's often used for this purpose.

This is where PUA comes in. PUA is a series of exercises that accelerates the process of turning the man-child into a man. It teaches him how to display dominance and aggression. It teaches him how to show ladies a good time and how to give them excitement in their lives. It teaches him how to dress properly and to keep himself well groomed. It turns an unattracitve, pathetic man-child into an attractive man.

This is one of the most well thought out answers that I've seen in quite awhile. Well done.

+1

 

[VanillaCreme]

It's interesting that people who are against PUA are usually either women or men who have no problems in the dating game and are happily in relationships.

I doubt anyone would think that I didn't have any problems with "dating" or relationships. Because if you knew that the first dude I ever liked - since having an elementary school crush on him - learned that I liked him. Some time during middle school, he asked me out. Only for his father to call me the next morning apologizing, and he also had his son apologize to me and confess to me that it was a dare to ask me out and that it was only a joke.

And, if you knew that if the one person I cared about in high school didn't lie to me about going to prom, I would have went. I asked him if he was going with anyone. He told me he wasn't going at all. A few weeks before prom, I learned he was indeed going. And I'm pretty sure he told me no flat-out to my face because I wasn't pretty enough for him.

And... if you knew that I didn't have my first real boyfriend until I was well out of high school, who by the way was abusive in about every possible way, cheated on me, lied to me, and then had the audacity to think I'd magically just take him back a year after I had finally had the sense to get away from him.

The whole PUA thing to me is just so full of overly done, overly processed thinking that people decide to live by. But most of them fail to realize that if they had a decent personality to begin with, they wouldn't have to cling the whole PUA ideas of one. However, even though it's not for me, perhaps it works for some. To each their own.

 

[Astral_Punisher]

Actually, I agreed with everything you wrote, until the last four paragraphs, which were pure poppycock. I am one of the weaker males: shy, unassertive, and too "nice", whatever that means...and I have plenty of attractive female friends. I have been friends with cheerleaders before. One friend I keep in contact with was the head cheerleader at my high school...and she still is highly attractive.

It doesn't make any difference, though. I am seen as either gay or asexual, due to me being not manly enough. I just wondered if PUA books would make me more manly, or make these women see me as a male equal, rather than one of their female friends (but a guy.) Sadly, it seems like guys like me are caught in the middle of romantic B.S., all of the time.

I'm assuming that by naming them as attractive, you were/are hoping to make them 'more then friends'? I ask because it was not specified.

And I'm also assuming that by disagreeing with what I wrote, you have never had any inclinations to have sexual relations with these woman? It sounds like you were hoping, at least at some point, of 'making it' with some of these women.

Well, I honestly find that a slight bit confusing, but okay.

It's interesting that people who are against PUA are usually either women or men who have no problems in the dating game and are happily in relationships.

Weak men develop shyness and insecurity around women because in the stone age, a weak man who made advances towards women would have had a very real chance of being badly injured or even killed by a rival. Thus, it was in the weak man's best interest to avoid contact with women. Conversely, women preferred strong men because they would be more likely to be able to protect her offspring. In today's world, there's no real physical risk in approaching women. PUA takes advantage of this by teaching men who aren't strong how to act strong (or "alpha").

Most men are naturally strong, so this dating comes naturally to them. They see PUA as silly and unnecessary because they are just able to be themselves around women and women are attracted to them. Some men, however, don't properly develop traits like dominance and aggression in their childhood and teenage years. They are biologically male, but their personalities and physical appearances resemble per-pubescent boys more than adults. Indeed, few women want to date a 25 year old kissless virgin man-child. They might find him amusing, in a friendly little-brother sort of way, but they won't consider dating him. The man-child still has a chance on his own, but he has to make up years of lost time other men used to gain experience in the dating market. This can be hard to do because despite effectively being a child in the dating market, he still has adult responsibilities, such as working full time and paying bills. He doesn't have the leisure time that's afforded to children and teenagers that's often used for this purpose.

This is where PUA comes in. PUA is a series of exercises that accelerates the process of turning the man-child into a man. It teaches him how to display dominance and aggression. It teaches him how to show ladies a good time and how to give them excitement in their lives. It teaches him how to dress properly and to keep himself well groomed. It turns an unattracitve, pathetic man-child into an attractive man.

Lol - 'pathetic man-child'. That would probably serious 'slay' some of my 'less manly' friends.

It's interesting that people who are against PUA are usually either women or men who have no problems in the dating game and are happily in relationships.

I doubt anyone would think that I didn't have any problems with "dating" or relationships. Because if you knew that the first dude I ever liked - since having an elementary school crush on him - learned that I liked him. Some time during middle school, he asked me out. Only for his father to call me the next morning apologizing, and he also had his son apologize to me and confess to me that it was a dare to ask me out and that it was only a joke.

And, if you knew that if the one person I cared about in high school didn't lie to me about going to prom, I would have went. I asked him if he was going with anyone. He told me he wasn't going at all. A few weeks before prom, I learned he was indeed going. And I'm pretty sure he told me no flat-out to my face because I wasn't pretty enough for him.

And... if you knew that I didn't have my first real boyfriend until I was well out of high school, who by the way was abusive in about every possible way, cheated on me, lied to me, and then had the audacity to think I'd magically just take him back a year after I had finally had the sense to get away from him.

The whole PUA thing to me is just so full of overly done, overly processed thinking that people decide to live by. But most of them fail to realize that if they had a decent personality to begin with, they wouldn't have to cling the whole PUA ideas of one. However, even though it's not for me, perhaps it works for some. To each their own.

I think the operative here is "had a decent personality to begin with."

I don't think many people have had to have a decent, socially adjusted personality to get through life. These days, aloofness and secular, self-centered/self-defensive behavior is more and more the 'norm'.

I also don't think that 'PUA' materials are the best thing for people to read, but it's better then fruitlessly grasping at thread-less notions of why they are not able to attract women (or people at all for that matter). At least they'll gain some insight, which may be just what they need to start to enjoy some semblance of a social life.

 

[floffyschneeman]

I probably just live in a different world.

I have scanned most post made here (eyes hurt to read everything cos of fever) and I have found some things I disagree with men's believes in themselves and also how they perceive what women want.

firstly, I think it's a misconception for guys to think women would prefer the confident dude or the ''alpha male''. I have never liked any man who displayed the ''alpha male'' attitude. In fact, I find it too much of a ''cover boy'' image, attractive on the outside, empty on the inside.

secondly, I don't believe every man needs to display his dominance on everyone including all men in the crowd to gain his alpha male position. BUT I find it attractive for a man to display his manliness on me. For example, his courage to disagree with me on some things we disagree upon. Like discussing ideas, stuff involving personal opinions. Also, the courage to explain his views and side. It shows that he is man enough to stand by what he believes in. You can find this trait even on shy guys. and I know this cos I practically live in a country where guys are often shy. I went to a university where almost all guys are either gay or geek. But our only advantage is that our society doesn't always discriminate people on their 20's without any relationship experience.

Thirdly, I don't think a shy guy who needs to build up his confidence can build up his confidence with the help of a book designed to get him laid. Everyone needs to build up their confidence for a stronger purpose than getting a date. One ideally should build up his/her confidence for himself and in his seeking to become a better person he/she can be. Because in my opinion, there is no manlier trait than the wanting to become better as a person for himself and in order to become better for the people he loves and the people he will eventually meet.

also, I am not putting down the fact that most, if not all, men want to have sex with girls they find attractive. It's part of wanting that girl and it is also attractive for most girls. It makes them feel they are wanted and longed for. BUT there's a difference with just wanting to have sex or wanting a romantic relationship with sex involved. And I don't think men needs to display that in a yeah-baby-I-wanna-bang-you attitude. If a man's sole purpose to want to be confident around girls is to get laid, seriously, that man is wanting to be a jackass. Then no need to say I am a shy, nice guy who can't get a date cos girls prefer the attractive alpha male guys.

seriously, there is more to a guy than being the ''alpha male'', there is more to life than getting laid, there is more to a girl than her v...what's down there (d)

 

[Astral_Punisher]

... seriously, there is more to a guy than being the ''alpha male'', there is more to life than getting laid, there is more to a girl than her v...what's down there (d)

I hope you feel better from your fever - get some liquids and rest, okay?

I think I'm not being very clear - my fault, and my mistake for muddling up my thought process, and writing out unclearly.

To address your points (1,2,3,4):

1) I love that you like less 'alpha-male' guys. Half the forum (the male half) loves you x1000 for looking for someone less then 'alpha'. I am part of this group!

2) I don't know where you live, so it's difficult for me to understand the local social dynamics of your area. For me, in my local area, if you are a 'virgin' (that is little to no relationship experience), you are pretty much ostracized in the 'typical' social situations (bars, clubs, church, parties). If you are a 'shy' man, you are most often in the 'shadows' of the 'larger then life' 'alpha males'. This has nothing to do with the actions of the women in the location; it's simply the shy men feeling intimidated, and shrinking away from the group because he is not as 'strong' as the 'alpha males'. He feels that he can not compete. And believe me, it is a battle, a competition - for attention.

3) I agree that the 'PUA' materials are generally for getting laid, and are not the 'best' reads for a man looking for self-confidence growth. But, I argue that they are better then nothing. I personally feel that I have been there, and by reading them, along with other 'social aid' books, I have gotten myself into a better place as a person (more confident, stronger idea of what I want in my life).

I agree completely that a person should grow to be a stronger, better person simply for their own, personal sake. Getting a better date isn't the worst reason to aim for personal greatness though!

4) I agree that the 'ok-baby-lets-bang' attitude is pretty darn crude - But it is very common, I believe, that both men and woman want to have a satisfying sex life. If one of a person's goals is to achieve this satisfying sex life, through self-improvement and confidence-building, then I personally don't have a problem with it.
If a person's sole reason for improvement is getting laid, by any means possible, then yes, that may be a bit 'crude' as well, but I don't feel that it's my place to judge a person's reasoning for their actions - especially if those actions are positive actions (health, wealth, social well-being, etc).

There is definitely more to people then these goals (sex and social power).
There is definitely more to being a good, modern man then simply banging girls (AKA, something along the lines of: ).
And girls are way, way, way more complicated then their sexual organs. I 1000% agree on this.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

I know there is more to life than sex and relationships.

And I have good friendships, with both men and women. I have an active social life...well, as active as I would like it. I just went to a party 2 weeks ago, and I am going to meet with a friend soon and hang out and jam on instruments (he is also a musician, although better at piano than guitar.)

I have a fulfilling time just filling it with books, movies, tv shows, the internet, video games, and music (both written by me and written by other people.) I have fun shopping for guitars and other musical instruments, I have fun playing with my iPhone, I have fun fooling around in the studio or seeing if I can pull any more chapters out for the novel I'm working on. I have college and a job afterwards to look forward to. I am surrounded by a city full of people that are social, and I have neighbors that I get along well with (we aren't best friends, but we certainly are not enemies!)

Despite all this, I would love to feel a girl's lips on mine, caress her and cuddle with her, and have sex. Masturbatory fantasies only get me so far. I know it's not the way I look - plenty of worse looking dudes, even those who are crippled, are in relationships - so I know I could get a girl. At least going by my looks.

I dunno, it's like a measure of self worth. I feel like less of a man, because I can't get a girl interested. I also feel like less of a human being, because I am not married with kids. I am letting down my mom, who wants grandchildren. Family members and friends have scratched their heads at my eternal singleless, and have concluded that I'm either gay or asexual, neither of which I am.

I know there are plenty of guys who don't follow pick up, who are nice guys, and who are straight arrows who don't have trouble with girls. Plenty of these guys are friends of mine or married to female friends of mine. I wish I knew their secret; other than "don't fear rejection", I haven't heard any single thing that is useful, that I haven't applied.

 

[floffyschneeman]

I guess it depends in what works for you. What I just liked to point out is that some girls find the ''alpha male'' attitude as too cocky and fake. So if you are the kind of guy who would want a girl who will look beyond your appearance and whom you could also trust in a long lasting relationship, then my take is for you build up yourself and gain self worth by the things you do and the things you believe in.

I live in south east asia. I know that the culture here is very different. Probably why I can't understand this whole PUA thing and how some guys treat it as a life's manual. With the group I hang out with, we get interested in guys for what he do and can do rather than how he looks. Though of course, looks has some good points, but it can't make or break your chance in getting to know a girl. But what I mean is talents, intelligence, skills (as long as you are still humble) do matter, in fact, it can get a girl's attention just as looks can. The only difference is attention span cos attention base on looks fades faster than attention base on skills.

So, if by reading these PUA books helps you in gaining confidence in approaching girls then let it help you, just never forget that you are more than your looks and the clothes you wear and at the end of the day, a girl would care more about what YOU say than what you said base on a manual that says you should say this.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

Interesting, floffy. I hadn't considered that.

I suppose I should stay true to myself, and hope that I'll find my geekess sometime. I certainly won't find her on POF, for example, because most of those girls are loose and just there for sex. I want more than that.

I guess I just wanted something to "kickstart conversation." But if PU is not going to work for that, what's the point? I can't pretend I'm a jock, because I hate sports. I can't pretend I'm not interested in music, because I do it for a living. Etc.

You are what you is, is what the essence is. I guess I just have to hope that what I "is", is good enough.

 

[kamya]

It is going to start that. The podcast that I linked in an earlier post talks about the philosophy of "talk to everyone". Men, women, old folks, kids, teenagers. Just talk to everyone. Be genuine too. Listen to what the other person is saying and actually be interested and go off of what they are saying. It's too obvious faking being interested, or using a canned "opener". Everyone thinks PUA is about faking an image. It's really about becoming confident and comfortable in your own skin. Not faking it.

 

[VanillaCreme]

You can't measure your self-worth by what others go by.

 

[Astral_Punisher]

Interesting, floffy. I hadn't considered that.

I suppose I should stay true to myself, and hope that I'll find my geekess sometime. I certainly won't find her on POF, for example, because most of those girls are loose and just there for sex. I want more than that.

I guess I just wanted something to "kickstart conversation." But if PU is not going to work for that, what's the point? I can't pretend I'm a jock, because I hate sports. I can't pretend I'm not interested in music, because I do it for a living. Etc.

You are what you is, is what the essence is. I guess I just have to hope that what I "is", is good enough.

What is a 'POF'?

 

[Peter Lorre]

Plenty of Fish, I presume. It's a dating site.

 

[SophiaGrace]

try OkCupid.com
that one is better.

 

[Astral_Punisher]

*blinks*

Ah, I'll have to check those out sites, I suppose .

Thanks for letting me know .

 

[AFrozenSoul]

Ah yes free dating sites. Otherwise known as sites that are trying to be social networking sites. Though I did like sitting around answering questions on Ok Cupid. It was funny because the one thing that matched the most with me and other girls was our views on sex. Too bad I am too much of a loser to actually see if they are full of BS or not.

 

[The Good Citizen]

In the uk there is a smoking ban in pubs/bars (in all indoor public places infact). You have to go outside the front to smoke normally which actually is a really good way to get chatting to people. You're outside together with not many people around so you get 10 minutes of their time. I have in the past gone outside for a cigarette (yes I tend to smoke when I've had a couple of drinks, bad I know) and spent ages outside just chatting to people I have met out there.

Not advocating starting smoking of course. Just a strange benefit for me from a law that was supposed to be an imposition to smokers. Long live the ban!!

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

What does smoking (which kills people) have to do with getting girls?

I also am allergic to cigarette smoke. My throat closes up.

 

[SophiaGrace]

Buy fake cigs and smoke them just so youc an talk to people.

 

[VanillaCreme]

What does smoking (which kills people) have to do with getting girls?

I also am allergic to cigarette smoke. My throat closes up.

You miss his whole point in telling that.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

Nevermind.