My experience with Religions
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Sir Joseph
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Tobakki has raised several points and questions that I'll take time to answer, even if they were meant to be rhetorical.
It's true that people believe in all sorts of stuff depending on their exposure, including a whole lot of wrong perceptions, events, and theologies. Even so, that doesn't mean they're all wrong. There's no denying that the world is full of both right and wrong beliefs that compare with reality. Too often, people don't examine the evidence to find the truth.
I agree that most people don't take the time to study world religions. They accept or reject the one they were generally raised with. That's a sad reality in my view, since the majority of the world's peoples follow false religions. I say false, because it's not possible for multiple religions with opposing doctrines to all be right. If one is right, the others are wrong.
So what are we even looking for in religion? It generally answers the most important questions in life that some people innately ponder and others don't: who are we, where did we come from, and why are we here? Intelligent people recognize that such philosophical questions are of paramount importance to a human being. I'd propose that religion in all it's messy forms provides the answers - be it the right or wrong ones, depending on one's choice of faith.
What proofs do these religions provide for existence of a god? First, I'd maintain that you don't need any religious scriptures, doctrines, or associations to affirm the existence of a god. Science today has already done that exceedingly well. As explained in my previous post, physics and biology already firmly testify to the existence of a supernatural creator - a god of some sort. There is other cosmology, astronomy, bio-chemistry, genetics, geology, and information technology evidence to support this - more than space here allows.
Based upon the scientific evidence for a supernatural creator, there is at least one major world religion that can be ruled out because its founder didn't believe in any god or supernatural creator: Buddhism. As for the other major world religions, I can only suggest 2 that have valid evidence which could be considered proofs: Judaism and Christianity, due to their foundation of Holy Bible scriptures. Unfortunately, Judaism forfeits much of this evidence by rejecting the New Testament gospel about Jesus, but the Old Testament alone provides powerful evidence for the existence of a god. How? First and foremost, it records specific prophesies about people, places, times, and events that only a divine being outside of time and space could know. There are hundreds of such prophesies in the Bible, but the foretelling of the destruction of Babylon, the fate of Israel, and the 2 century course of history detailed in the book of Daniel are truely incredible prophesies that go beyond human capability. No other religion in the world comes close to making such specific prophesies, yet alone seeing them fulfilled through secular history.
The Bible's unique fulfillment of specific prophesy is powerful evidence, not only for a god of some sort, but for the God of the Holy Bible. It's what differentiates Christianity from all other religions, with some exception allowed for Judaism. Other evidence that's valid and interesting is the detailing of several scientific and medical principles in the Bible long before their discovery by man, the historical (and scientific) evidence for supernatural events in history, the accounts of miracle healings and near death experiences, and the impact that God's written word has had on the entire world. Finally, there is no explaining human consciousness or love without a supernatural creator who possesses a mind and consists of love. It's logical that he would endow these traits upon his creation, but not supportable that chance chemical processes could ever originate such non-material traits.
Why does no religion give a complete explanation of the beginning of the universe? First, I'd suggest that most religions don't know the correct answers because they have no true insight from God. This is evident by some of the absurd origin stories available from various world religions. Second, I'd add that it's generally not the intent of any religion to serve as a complete science book for mankind. I think it's more appropriate to expect a brief explanation of our universe and world's origins. The Bible of course does this in Genesis 1. I recognize that a majority of people today (even misguided Christians) reject the 6 day creation account summarized in Chapters 1 and 2, but a preponderance of scientific evidence does not - another topic in and of itself. I will point out here though that the Bible has specific statements concerning the universe that are consistent with the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. So while it doesn't give you the many details that would interest all of us, what it does provide is theologically adequate and so far consistent with much of science.
Tobakki, If you really want to know whether there is a god or not, I'd suggest you spend time studying the evidence for creationsim. I have a variety of articles, books, and videos ready to share with anyone who's interested. Once you get to the point of recognizing the overwhelming amount of evidence supporting a supernatural creator, I'd then encourage you (or anyone) to make a further study into which religion best represents truth about this god. There too, I have a good variety of material to share that will lead any open hearted person to the one true faith of Christianity.
Diagnosed, reading your posts, I'm not sure what you believe, but I'm glad to see you here and hope you gain something from my efforts in this thread.
It's true that people believe in all sorts of stuff depending on their exposure, including a whole lot of wrong perceptions, events, and theologies. Even so, that doesn't mean they're all wrong. There's no denying that the world is full of both right and wrong beliefs that compare with reality. Too often, people don't examine the evidence to find the truth.
I agree that most people don't take the time to study world religions. They accept or reject the one they were generally raised with. That's a sad reality in my view, since the majority of the world's peoples follow false religions. I say false, because it's not possible for multiple religions with opposing doctrines to all be right. If one is right, the others are wrong.
So what are we even looking for in religion? It generally answers the most important questions in life that some people innately ponder and others don't: who are we, where did we come from, and why are we here? Intelligent people recognize that such philosophical questions are of paramount importance to a human being. I'd propose that religion in all it's messy forms provides the answers - be it the right or wrong ones, depending on one's choice of faith.
What proofs do these religions provide for existence of a god? First, I'd maintain that you don't need any religious scriptures, doctrines, or associations to affirm the existence of a god. Science today has already done that exceedingly well. As explained in my previous post, physics and biology already firmly testify to the existence of a supernatural creator - a god of some sort. There is other cosmology, astronomy, bio-chemistry, genetics, geology, and information technology evidence to support this - more than space here allows.
Based upon the scientific evidence for a supernatural creator, there is at least one major world religion that can be ruled out because its founder didn't believe in any god or supernatural creator: Buddhism. As for the other major world religions, I can only suggest 2 that have valid evidence which could be considered proofs: Judaism and Christianity, due to their foundation of Holy Bible scriptures. Unfortunately, Judaism forfeits much of this evidence by rejecting the New Testament gospel about Jesus, but the Old Testament alone provides powerful evidence for the existence of a god. How? First and foremost, it records specific prophesies about people, places, times, and events that only a divine being outside of time and space could know. There are hundreds of such prophesies in the Bible, but the foretelling of the destruction of Babylon, the fate of Israel, and the 2 century course of history detailed in the book of Daniel are truely incredible prophesies that go beyond human capability. No other religion in the world comes close to making such specific prophesies, yet alone seeing them fulfilled through secular history.
The Bible's unique fulfillment of specific prophesy is powerful evidence, not only for a god of some sort, but for the God of the Holy Bible. It's what differentiates Christianity from all other religions, with some exception allowed for Judaism. Other evidence that's valid and interesting is the detailing of several scientific and medical principles in the Bible long before their discovery by man, the historical (and scientific) evidence for supernatural events in history, the accounts of miracle healings and near death experiences, and the impact that God's written word has had on the entire world. Finally, there is no explaining human consciousness or love without a supernatural creator who possesses a mind and consists of love. It's logical that he would endow these traits upon his creation, but not supportable that chance chemical processes could ever originate such non-material traits.
Why does no religion give a complete explanation of the beginning of the universe? First, I'd suggest that most religions don't know the correct answers because they have no true insight from God. This is evident by some of the absurd origin stories available from various world religions. Second, I'd add that it's generally not the intent of any religion to serve as a complete science book for mankind. I think it's more appropriate to expect a brief explanation of our universe and world's origins. The Bible of course does this in Genesis 1. I recognize that a majority of people today (even misguided Christians) reject the 6 day creation account summarized in Chapters 1 and 2, but a preponderance of scientific evidence does not - another topic in and of itself. I will point out here though that the Bible has specific statements concerning the universe that are consistent with the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. So while it doesn't give you the many details that would interest all of us, what it does provide is theologically adequate and so far consistent with much of science.
Tobakki, If you really want to know whether there is a god or not, I'd suggest you spend time studying the evidence for creationsim. I have a variety of articles, books, and videos ready to share with anyone who's interested. Once you get to the point of recognizing the overwhelming amount of evidence supporting a supernatural creator, I'd then encourage you (or anyone) to make a further study into which religion best represents truth about this god. There too, I have a good variety of material to share that will lead any open hearted person to the one true faith of Christianity.
Diagnosed, reading your posts, I'm not sure what you believe, but I'm glad to see you here and hope you gain something from my efforts in this thread.
funnylife33
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I have one important question to ask ,
What is the name of the god in the old testament ?
What is the name of the god in the old testament ?
funnylife33
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So this god revealed a lot of messages to people through prophets in the old testament ?
And one day yod-hei-vav-hei יהוה suddenly decided to make a child and called him Jesus ?
And one day yod-hei-vav-hei יהוה suddenly decided to make a child and called him Jesus ?
"So this god revealed a lot of messages to people through prophets in the old testament ?"
How do you know it was God (Jaw) talking to men?
"And one day yod-hei-vav-hei יהוה suddenly decided to make a child and called him Jesus ?"
Since you've read portions of that "Holy" book, what's your point?
How do you know it was God (Jaw) talking to men?
"And one day yod-hei-vav-hei יהוה suddenly decided to make a child and called him Jesus ?"
Since you've read portions of that "Holy" book, what's your point?
SpiffyPanda
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I think religions are different articulations of how humans should best live their lives, and how to harmonize individual goals and actions with those of the collective. All have a bit of truth to them - after all, if these systems exist, they must have been useful to someone at some point. I don't think there can be such a thing as an absolute religion, because absolute truth is not something that can be perfectly articulated in words. You can come close, but every attempt at articulating will always be bound to a certain context, and a certain time and place. Which is why I think it's very important for religions to be open to change, which sadly isn't really the case. Most major religions are hopelessly outdated and stuck in the past, with little guidance to offer in terms of uniquely modern problems.
I liked that!
The RCC is getting "updated" with their plan to permit female priests with the allowance they get married.
The ecumenic movements aren't este these days and it's seen muslim May join jews along with members of the RCC. But I have the hunch they want a club (to be clubbed)
The RCC is getting "updated" with their plan to permit female priests with the allowance they get married.
The ecumenic movements aren't este these days and it's seen muslim May join jews along with members of the RCC. But I have the hunch they want a club (to be clubbed)
funnylife33
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I think Yahweh is the true old god of all the monotheistic religions
If there is an old god , it must be Yahweh
This god has spoken to prophets of many ages .
Yahweh spoke to the old prophets of the old testament
Yahweh spoke to Jesus
Yahweh spoke to Muhammad the prophet
That is why the Old testament , New testament and Quran have lots of similarities
If there is an old god , it must be Yahweh
This god has spoken to prophets of many ages .
Yahweh spoke to the old prophets of the old testament
Yahweh spoke to Jesus
Yahweh spoke to Muhammad the prophet
That is why the Old testament , New testament and Quran have lots of similarities
SpiffyPanda
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Tobakki3 said:
God goes by different names
M_also_lonely
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Tobakki3 said:
Maybe.
But religion doesn't.
Sir Joseph
Well-known member
Diagnosed, thanks for the compliment; glad to know someone reads and appreciates my efforts here.
Tobakki3, I am not qualified or interested in detailing the 100+ names assigned to God, but I can answer your question by addressing the most common ones used in English.
YHWH is the proper Hebew name for God given to the Israelites. As a tetragrammaton (having no written vowels), it's often pronounced Yahweh or Yehowah, though no certainty exists for what actual vowels were pronounced by the ancient Hebrews. LORD is the accepted English translation of this proper name, while Jehovah is a questionable translation popularized by the King James Bible and Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah is a German pronunciation of the Latin transliteration of YHWH. The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe Jehovah is the proper pronunciation of YHWH - first because there is no true J sound in ancient Hebrew, and second because the Hebrew letter vav, which is transliterated as the W in YHWH, originally had a pronunciation closer to W rather than the V of Jehovah. “Yahweh” or “Yehowah” is far more likely to be the correct pronunciation. In any case, the tetragrammaton's root meaning is "I AM" and suggests eternal self-existance. Be it YHWH, LORD, or Jehovah, this name is used over 6800 times in the Old Testament - the most frequent of all names.
Elohim is a Hebrew word that denotes “God” or “god.” It is the second most frequent name for God in the Old Testament, being used over 2250 times. The basic meaning behind this name is one of strength or power. Elohim is the infinite, all-powerful God who shows by His works that He is the creator, sustainer, and supreme judge of the world. Interestingly, the Hebrew suffix "im" indicates that the word Elohim is grammatically plural. While this may be interpreted as a way of emphasizing greatness, power, and prestige, it's also consistent with the Bible's overall teachings of his triune nature (1 god in 3 persons).
Your second question/comment Tobakki3 suggesting that God suddenly decided to make a child and call him Jesus also deserves a response. Anyone with a receptive heart and some research can easily surmise that the Old Testament references a future suffering servant or Messiah that would intervene between God and man. From Genesis and Psalms through the prophets of Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, and others, over 300 of these prophesies exist and no one but Jesus has fulfilled them. A mature understanding of the Bible is recognizing that Jesus is interwoven throughout God's plan of creation, man's downfall, and the redemption of our relationship with God. To anyone who recognizes the Bible's authority as being true, it is clear that Jesus has existed eternally, and his incarnation onto earth as a man 2000 years ago can hardly be considered a sudden, new idea or change of plans. This of course is a key doctrine of Christianity, accepting that Jesus was not a mere prophet or teacher that lived on earth for 33 years, but God himself visiting his Creation in human form. Virtually all other religions in the world reject this premise, but they can't legitimately discredit the numerous, specific Old Testament prophesies he fulfilled.
SpiffyPanda, I apologize if I've misinterpreted you, but your summation of all religions sounds like the popular notion these days of placing relative truth over objective truth. If so, I'd suggest that your own conclusions are self refuting. In other words, your accusation that there is no objective truth discredits your stated beliefs, since they themselves can't be trusted to be truthful.
Consider, in a world with no objective morality, one culture can justify sacrificing innocent children to their god, enslaving the weaker people, killing the less attractive or unproductive members of society, raping women freely on the streets, or torturing and mutilating little babies for a spectator sport. Can I assume then that you'd hold no objective moral standard to this type of society? After all, if they think its ok for them, who are you to say otherwise? Hmmm. Might I suggest that, just as the universe holds to scientific objective truths that reflect reality, so are certain moral values innate within our hearts. These values cross cultural boundaries and individuals, meaning that certain things are intrinsically wrong whether the country or individual recognizes (and respects) it or not. If we're just animals originating from chance chemical processes, such consciousness of moral values is illogical. But, if we're created in the image of God, who has a mind and a conscience, then it makes sense that we would inherit his sense of moral values and recognize his establishment of objective truth. That being the case, the true God who created us and this universe isn't about to change his truths to accommodate our ever changing cultures and moral values. No, once you recognize that there is a supreme creator and ruler of the universe, you must realize too that his nature and laws are THE objective standard. After all, he who makes the universe gets to make the rules. Each person must decide for themselves which religion accurately represents the true creator and god of the universe. If you want a man-made religion that changes with the times, you've plenty of choices, including new religions being popularized each century. But the one true religion of Christianity depends upon the Holy Bible's scriptures, which represent the words of God himself. You're free to accept or reject their truths, but don't expect God to change them for us.
Tobakki3, I am not qualified or interested in detailing the 100+ names assigned to God, but I can answer your question by addressing the most common ones used in English.
YHWH is the proper Hebew name for God given to the Israelites. As a tetragrammaton (having no written vowels), it's often pronounced Yahweh or Yehowah, though no certainty exists for what actual vowels were pronounced by the ancient Hebrews. LORD is the accepted English translation of this proper name, while Jehovah is a questionable translation popularized by the King James Bible and Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah is a German pronunciation of the Latin transliteration of YHWH. The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe Jehovah is the proper pronunciation of YHWH - first because there is no true J sound in ancient Hebrew, and second because the Hebrew letter vav, which is transliterated as the W in YHWH, originally had a pronunciation closer to W rather than the V of Jehovah. “Yahweh” or “Yehowah” is far more likely to be the correct pronunciation. In any case, the tetragrammaton's root meaning is "I AM" and suggests eternal self-existance. Be it YHWH, LORD, or Jehovah, this name is used over 6800 times in the Old Testament - the most frequent of all names.
Elohim is a Hebrew word that denotes “God” or “god.” It is the second most frequent name for God in the Old Testament, being used over 2250 times. The basic meaning behind this name is one of strength or power. Elohim is the infinite, all-powerful God who shows by His works that He is the creator, sustainer, and supreme judge of the world. Interestingly, the Hebrew suffix "im" indicates that the word Elohim is grammatically plural. While this may be interpreted as a way of emphasizing greatness, power, and prestige, it's also consistent with the Bible's overall teachings of his triune nature (1 god in 3 persons).
Your second question/comment Tobakki3 suggesting that God suddenly decided to make a child and call him Jesus also deserves a response. Anyone with a receptive heart and some research can easily surmise that the Old Testament references a future suffering servant or Messiah that would intervene between God and man. From Genesis and Psalms through the prophets of Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, and others, over 300 of these prophesies exist and no one but Jesus has fulfilled them. A mature understanding of the Bible is recognizing that Jesus is interwoven throughout God's plan of creation, man's downfall, and the redemption of our relationship with God. To anyone who recognizes the Bible's authority as being true, it is clear that Jesus has existed eternally, and his incarnation onto earth as a man 2000 years ago can hardly be considered a sudden, new idea or change of plans. This of course is a key doctrine of Christianity, accepting that Jesus was not a mere prophet or teacher that lived on earth for 33 years, but God himself visiting his Creation in human form. Virtually all other religions in the world reject this premise, but they can't legitimately discredit the numerous, specific Old Testament prophesies he fulfilled.
SpiffyPanda, I apologize if I've misinterpreted you, but your summation of all religions sounds like the popular notion these days of placing relative truth over objective truth. If so, I'd suggest that your own conclusions are self refuting. In other words, your accusation that there is no objective truth discredits your stated beliefs, since they themselves can't be trusted to be truthful.
Consider, in a world with no objective morality, one culture can justify sacrificing innocent children to their god, enslaving the weaker people, killing the less attractive or unproductive members of society, raping women freely on the streets, or torturing and mutilating little babies for a spectator sport. Can I assume then that you'd hold no objective moral standard to this type of society? After all, if they think its ok for them, who are you to say otherwise? Hmmm. Might I suggest that, just as the universe holds to scientific objective truths that reflect reality, so are certain moral values innate within our hearts. These values cross cultural boundaries and individuals, meaning that certain things are intrinsically wrong whether the country or individual recognizes (and respects) it or not. If we're just animals originating from chance chemical processes, such consciousness of moral values is illogical. But, if we're created in the image of God, who has a mind and a conscience, then it makes sense that we would inherit his sense of moral values and recognize his establishment of objective truth. That being the case, the true God who created us and this universe isn't about to change his truths to accommodate our ever changing cultures and moral values. No, once you recognize that there is a supreme creator and ruler of the universe, you must realize too that his nature and laws are THE objective standard. After all, he who makes the universe gets to make the rules. Each person must decide for themselves which religion accurately represents the true creator and god of the universe. If you want a man-made religion that changes with the times, you've plenty of choices, including new religions being popularized each century. But the one true religion of Christianity depends upon the Holy Bible's scriptures, which represent the words of God himself. You're free to accept or reject their truths, but don't expect God to change them for us.
SpiffyPanda
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Objective truth does exist, but it's not something that can be expressed in words, only felt. God can only be felt, never fully understood by the mind. That's why religion, which consists of linguistically articulated guidelines, can only ever be a partial truth, an approximation that works well enough for a given situation.Sir Joseph said:
Sir Joseph
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SpiffyPanda, your response is just philosophical enough to give me pause, not knowing whether to agree or disagree. In any case, I have nothing further to add here unless Tobakki3 wants to provoke more discussion on religion.
funnylife33
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I think Allah and Yahweh is the same God ,
We have some differences in the way we see Jesus in Islam
We have some differences in the way we see Jesus in Islam
Sir Joseph
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Tobakki, many others like you consider the God of Islam and the God of Christianity to be the same god. It's a result of the religious tolerance culture we live in today that publicly tries to reconcile the two religions. After all, most of us do want peace and love in the world and blending religious beliefs and values among cultures seems like a means to that goal. I'll admit that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all unique in being mono-theistic, but the differences are significant.
Since the God of the Holy Bible directs a different writing of history than the Quran, there are resulting different interactions between YHWH and man and Allah and man. That includes of course details within the Bible that support his triune nature and fulfilled prophesies supporting Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself. That then, is the most significant difference between YHWH and Allah. The God of the Bible is one god in three persons - Father, Son, and Spirit - and Jesus is an essential part of that. To deny Jesus's divinity is to deny the God of the Bible, since the Bible's scriptures intricately intertwine the two.
Muslims may view Jesus as a good man, teacher, and prophet, but the Bible's prophesies and Jesus' own words do not allow for that. Either he was God as he claimed, a liar, or a madman. Given the evidence of the apostles' testimony and the mathematical improbability of Jesus fulfilling over 300 Old testament prophesies through his life, death, and resurrection, I personally choose to accept him as the LORD and Savior that he appears to be. The benefit of that is having a personal relationship with my Creator, a loving Father as a god, and a certain path of salvation based upon his grace rather than my works. It's a good deal for those who believe and accept Jesus as God's manifestation of himself here on Earth. No religion but Christianity offers a theology based upon such a loving, personal relationship with the one true God of the universe. To Christians, YHWH is a loving God we call Father and a God who showed the ultimate sacrifce of himself on the cross to express this love. Muslims can't have this with Allah.
Since the God of the Holy Bible directs a different writing of history than the Quran, there are resulting different interactions between YHWH and man and Allah and man. That includes of course details within the Bible that support his triune nature and fulfilled prophesies supporting Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself. That then, is the most significant difference between YHWH and Allah. The God of the Bible is one god in three persons - Father, Son, and Spirit - and Jesus is an essential part of that. To deny Jesus's divinity is to deny the God of the Bible, since the Bible's scriptures intricately intertwine the two.
Muslims may view Jesus as a good man, teacher, and prophet, but the Bible's prophesies and Jesus' own words do not allow for that. Either he was God as he claimed, a liar, or a madman. Given the evidence of the apostles' testimony and the mathematical improbability of Jesus fulfilling over 300 Old testament prophesies through his life, death, and resurrection, I personally choose to accept him as the LORD and Savior that he appears to be. The benefit of that is having a personal relationship with my Creator, a loving Father as a god, and a certain path of salvation based upon his grace rather than my works. It's a good deal for those who believe and accept Jesus as God's manifestation of himself here on Earth. No religion but Christianity offers a theology based upon such a loving, personal relationship with the one true God of the universe. To Christians, YHWH is a loving God we call Father and a God who showed the ultimate sacrifce of himself on the cross to express this love. Muslims can't have this with Allah.
nostalghia
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As a teenager I read Zhuangzi. Since then I've thought one cannot know anything for sure, including the notion of that itself. I remember having some help with that interpretation, Zhuangzi often comes off as obscure even for adults.
Whether that is religion I can't say, the word seems a little vague.
Whether that is religion I can't say, the word seems a little vague.
Whether you believe in God or whatever you think God is, there does exist a concept of God in the minds of many people. I have found that church people on the whole tend to be friendly and considerate of other people. I wouldn't write them off if you are lonely. I have also found that if I don't worry too much about whether God exists or not and just participate in the service, I notice an intangible sense of something which is very positive. You can get too bogged down in details and miss the truth.Tobakki3 said:
Last year I was sitting in a cathedral listening to Handel's Messiah. I suddenly realized that everything I could hear and everything I could see, both architecture and music, was a result of inspiration by "God". It was difficult not to come to the conclusion that "something" is real.
