kamya said:
You can also acknowledge that a problem exists without automatically placing blame.
How does acknowledging that this problem exists for most men, and that women don't deal with this issue make someone bitter? Or sexist? Or negative? How does it say that women don't have any problems?
I do place blame. I don't really blame women as much as I blame evolutionary biology itself for programming people to still favor traits that, although they may have helped us survive at one point in time, are more harmful now in the civilized world. I blame the cultural revolution for changing what was considered attractive back to those primitive, evolutionary traits, and I blame the media for glamorizing it.
I guess this is why it's so important to be able to be more than an average guy, if it's at all possible. When a woman picks a guy, she's giving up on all other possibilities, which means if she picks an average guy, she's giving up on her chance to date someone who would make her feel more adrenaline and emotions. Kind of like how some guys probably find it hard to go for average-looking women, because that means giving up on the dream of dating a woman that they find very physically attractive.
I don't think acknowledging the problem men face makes them bitter either. It's just a statement of fact. I do think it's negative, but not in the sense that the person saying it is negative. I think it's negative because unless you happen to have the right traits, the whole thing is a negative situation.
DarkSelene said:
The problem might exist, but you're clearly not allowed to complain about it.
Too true. I think it's similar to how some people don't like to hear people complain about income inequality and decreasing opportunities. They don't want to acknowledge the problems in the system, because they feel like they benefit from things being the way they are. They say shut up and work harder, but I don't think they mean it. I think they just mean shut up, accept your role as an inherently inferior person, quietly resign yourself to your lot, and stop making noise from outside the chosen few's party. You're supposed to just keep a stiff upper lip, pretend everything is fine, and keep what bothers you bottled up inside until you either explode, implode, or you just disappear.
I just think it would be better for everyone, men and women, to be open and honest about what they want in a partner, and if it isn't nice, fine, but at least you know where they stand.
TheRealCallie said:
you still have to be compatible
The problem is, people come up with all kinds of reasons for incompatibility nowadays. If you aren't a macho man, the slightest weakness or shortcoming is considered incompatibility. It's like you have to magically guess exactly what the woman wants and already be that kind of person, or else you're incompatible. You aren't given the chance to grow into it or learn it, even if you are willing to give it an honest effort, even if you're willing to ask how to do it, even if you're just lost and confused and trying but you just don't know better, even if you're willing to step out of your comfort zone because you really like that person and they are worth it to you. You're just supposed to be able to do it all already and already have everything figured out.
DarkSelene said:
Disagree. Having the option to complain about what hurts me without being called a misandrist and a men hater is important to me. When I feel lonely, having someone is important to me. Being able to feel and express my emotions is and always will be important to me. At the core of this conversation is despair. The feeling that doesn't matter how much I try or do, nothing or no one will ever understand me, want me or care for me.
Someone who doesn't know anything about me to come to me and say I haven't done enough and the only reason why I don't achieve something is because of me? Because I'm upset about not getting it? That's OK and I'm the one who'll be placing blame?
This is a comparison. Nothing more than that, taking it as putting blame on a group or even hating a group is the biggest misrepresentation of someones feelings I've ever seen...
If I start chopping down wood to find diamonds, either someone is going to have to tell me that I can't find diamonds in wood, or I'll be chopping it down my whole life and failing... God forbid I'm ever frustrated about it, "tree hating piece of honeysuckle".
+1. Especially the bold parts. I've been feeling this for so long now. Venting doesn't solve the problem of course, but it does help, and it helps even more when instead of trying to shame you into silence, someone says they hear you, they see that you're hurting.
DarkSelene said:
Richard_39 said:
The thing is, people complain that "Ive tried everything and it doesnt work". Ergo, the logical conclusion would be that they have not tried everything.
No one is *condemned* to failiure and being alone forever, even though the feeling of it might be there. You have to change your outlook on it first and foremost, because complaining about it might be a relief, in the end it will not change anything. It kind even lead to skewered outlooks where none should exist.
This is where you're wrong. It's an optimistic view, hopeful, but not always reality. There are many cases where people can try everything and never achieve what they want, might be physical issue, mental issue, environmental, it doesn't matter... The truth is you only have so much control over life, and even if you do everything right on your end it might not work.
We are talking about 30/40yo people who spent their entire lives alone, without a girlfriend, sex or even a kiss. People who never felt what it is to be wanted or cared for, people who have no idea what holding hands is like... and, for a lot of them, this is the one thing that's missing. They didn't give up on their lives and spend it crying about how the world is unfair, they did everything on their end and still didn't achieve what they wanted the most.
I agree that complaining and not doing anything leads to skewered outlooks, but this is not the case. Plus, this is the most benevolent argument they have, that it's easier to have unwanted attention than none at all... especially in a lifetime.
Again, this is what fills me with dread - the thought of doing not being able to do enough things right to attract someone because my natural ability is too low, or being able to do everything right but it just doesn't work, I just can't trigger the right feelings. I feel like I have tried a lot, except things that I can't afford, things that I don't currently have the ability to do (and don't know if I ever can have these abilities), things that I don't know of, and things that may be effective but go against what I value and believe in, or things that just make no sense for me to do, things that aren't being myself. I honestly don't know what else I can do.
I wish I had learned what really attracted women a long time ago, instead of thinking they just wanted a man who was nice to them, could talk to them, and was interested in them as a person, thinking someone would just "like me for me" eventually, or thinking it was all random. Then maybe I'd have had time to become an impressive person. But I don't know if I even can become an impressive person, or if it would even matter. Maybe nothing matters without flirting and social dominance, and I really can't do either.
People who have never been 30+ and haven't had so much as one date, let alone sex or a relationship, can't ever really know what that feels like. Never being chosen, never even being "liked", never feeling like you're getting any closer to it. Feeling like you were cursed, or born missing something. It's a special kind of despair that just grinds you down, and for every year alone, the weariness gets that much heavier. It starts to spread out into everything.
Richard_39 said:
Okay, suppose I grant your point; the complaining is entirely legitimate, exactly accurate and 100 on the mark. The problem lies with others and there is nothing they can change.
....what then?
Accept it? Be bitter, or sad, or miserable or lonely or whatever those people feel for 80 years ( or whatever the life expectancy is)?
What's the endgame? Will it help people care for them? Or kiss them?
I'm genuinely curious, because its not my view of life. You call it optimistic, but it isnt really; I cant accept a life of miserability or loneliness forever, if I felt that way. Its not in my nature. Not a fatalist, if it can be called that. Not much in the habit of accepting hopeless situations.
I don't know. I want to fight, I want to rage against this, I want to break away from it. I don't want to accept this as my fate. I wish I could see something else in the cards for me than this, but unless I can start pulling some rabbits out of my hat, the kind I'd never been able to before, it's very hard to even imagine it. I've gotten to 32 now, with absolutely nothing in this area of life. It's starting to get scary now.
