Questions for the Men

[user 139760]

Not really, no. It's a conscious choice. Everyone can do evil, but chose not to. We've been told since birth "it's bad".
I don't believe in it coming out of different circumstances. I believe it's choice. Because the choice exist to not be so.
It makes it worse.

 

[ardour]

There are degrees of selfishness, ugly sides to people's personalities, behaviours that approach sociopathic without the individual necessarily being a sociopath (an overused term now I realize). You can't just categorize and say "these are the real monsters, the evil ones..." True sociopaths/psychopaths are a small minority.

 

[user 139760]

There are degrees of selfishness, ugly sides to people's personalities, behaviours that approach sociopathic without the individual necessarily being a sociopath (an overused term now I realize).  You can't just categorize and say "these are the real monsters, the evil ones..." True sociopaths/psychopaths are a  small minority.

Well, if the only thing you're lacking is opportunity to notget caught, doesn't it make you the same?

It's not because you have a *path in your behavioral description that it doesn't make you a monster. Was a time not too long ago several decades back where maybe a quarter of the planet beat up their wives. Didn't call them angels, didn't make them any less monsters. Though I doubt people would have identified as *paths back then.

It isn't just in actions, either, but in behaviors. Just because a lot of people don't have a clear psychological diagnosis doesn't mean it makes them any different than the John Doe who butchers 6 women on a rainy night. If someone thinking himself as superior, manipulating and playing people constantly, without any kind of violence unless self-inflicted, doesn't it make that person the same as any sociopath? Only reason they don't kill might be lack of opportunity.
When I took security classes years ago, one of our teachers gave us some statistics (based on what, no idea, but he's pretty much on the dot from personal experience so far); 10% of people worldwide are inherently evil, which is to say they're nasty and want to rip your guts out. 10% are inherently good, which means they don't even understand how someone gets that way. As for the remaining 80%...they're neither, but WILL chose bad when there's no chance of getting caught. Which is why you often find abandoned bodies in a ditch following a hit and run, or abandonned babies being there for 2-3 days, or people who beat their wives senseless and have them wear sunglasses....


They're a lot more present than you think. They just hide it hard as hell. Almost everyone's guilty of something, some people's underdrawers are just better hid and more smelly than some others. I'm currently involved in a case like this. Maniac thinks there's nothing wrong with raping 14 year olds. Going to plead insanity most likely. He's laughing all the way to the bank...

However, there's other kinds of sociopaths out there. They're the ones who make sure the worst ones don't get away.

 

[TheSkaFish]

But isn't being impressed different from person to person? What's impressive to me might not be impressive to a million other females. That highly depends on the person that would be impressed. I would imagine that's part of the reason why so many folks say to just be yourself. We're not meant to be with everyone we see. Wouldn't you rather attract the person that genuinely likes you as you really are, versus trying to impress and attract anyone and everyone?

I think there are things that are considered specifically attractive, which I agree varies from person to person.  But I think there are generally attractive traits as well.  Confidence is usually the first one that people bring up.  And it looks like ambition is too.  If "being yourself" means being someone who doesn't have a lot of these general traits (and I admit that I have a hard time with this), it's going to be rough.  

Would I rather attract someone who likes me as I really am?  It depends if they are aligned with the direction I want or not.  I would like to be able to pick someone that I want to get to know and could enhance my life instead of having to leave it up to chance.  I've known for a while that I want to change how I am, even if I haven't known how to do it.  I don't think I'd be very interested in someone who would like me as I am right now because they probably wouldn't be someone who would make me curious and excited about getting to know them, enhance my life and give me the feeling I'm looking for.  I'd feel like I'm stuck there because I couldn't break out of my old social role and I'd kick myself because if I knew what I needed to know and did what I should have done anyway before, I feel like I could have had a chance to do better but now I'll never have a chance to do as well again.

---

This reads like o variation on the Nice Guy shaming tactic. "Oh so you think meeting minimum requirements of decency entitles you to a relationship" etc., etc.Heard it before, countless times.  I doubt Ska actually thinks this, regardless of his blind spots and lack of motivation.

I don't know if he thinks it either. It was me trying to state how his line translated in my head. My intent there was more matter of factly as opposed to condescending.

No, I don't actually think that a person deserves to be richly rewarded just for not being evil.  But I do think that trying to be a smart and good person isn't worthless either.  I don't think trying to be friendly, agreeable, and sincere is worth less than someone with the obnoxious, show-off teenage rebel personality.

I should have been clearer. It was this part: "Essentially saying they deserve praise by virtue of not being evil"

I agree that it's difficult to take Ska's comments about "bad boys" and the opposite sex seriously, given that he's unemployed and isn't willing to take basic steps towards making himself more appealing, but that doesn't completely negate what he's pointing out either. A lot of women are into those personality traits in men, and not just the immature or emotionally damaged.

It's hard to get motivated to be appealing when it feels like I can only do so well anymore.  I'm not excited or motivated by what feels like all I can get. All my life I hoped I could figure out how to do better than "just OK" in everything. To be stuck in it after all, doesn't give me anything to work hard for.

---

I have a hard time understanding Jordan Peterson.  The whole thing about Bilbo becoming a thief and a bad citizen isn't really accurate, because he's helping the Dwarves take back what was rightfully theirs from a monster that took it by force and was inherently evil in the first place.  All my life, I was only ever taught to be a good citizen.  I had everything to lose and nothing to gain by being a bad citizen, except sex and relationships apparently, I guess.  I just don't see how a regular person can apply what Peterson is saying to regular life.  If I'm raised in a safe, stable environment, and I'm raised to get along and be agreeable, should I just start randomly stealing and fighting and destroying just to show others who's boss?  I thought it showed maturity to not do those things, to look for something better, more meaningful, to not do dumb things and not look for fights about things that don't matter.  I guess I just don't get that Peterson seems to be saying that everything is a competition, everything is a war.  I've always been more agreeable, I've always felt that why does everything have to be a competition all the time?

I agree with him in the sense that growing up, I feel like I should have been more willing to curse people out, fight, and get in trouble if need be.  But that's against enemies.  When I meet a girl I like I'm trying to have a pleasant interaction, not "out-alpha" her like she's some bully I have to stand up to or some kind of ape that I have to do a mating dance for.  I'm trying to treat her like a civilized person, not play bullshit games.

Same thing with the second video.  I'm really not sure how I can show that I can be a person who stands up to the unknown, as a regular person who wants to have a good life and doesn't come from a background where dominance was emphasized.  I've always been looking to arrive, enjoy things, and just live my life, and I can't enjoy anything if I take dumb risks that I don't even like just to beat my chest and get myself jailed or killed.  I don't want to be a beta male, I don't want to be the friend, fresia that second-class citizen role.  All my life I've always wanted to escape that, get to a point where they can't treat me like I'm inferior anymore.  But I don't want to be an alpha either, because I don't think they are respectable.  I think they're obnoxious and stupid and I feel like I know better than to behave like them.  I always had enough to do, I never felt a need to go around looking to start trouble and I never felt a need to try to dominate others.  I don't have the background for it, it would feel like I'm knowingly doing something wrong.  I always felt like just living my life but I guess that's not good enough.

The problem is that many people and probably Ska know they already didn't born with the capacity to reach that level of evil. A harmless person that realizes his good nature is not attractive becomes cynical and a worst realization is that that reality cannot be changed along the species is what makes them unable to accept there's a way of defeating that sentiment.

The problem with that is it would make sense if barely any person was evil, but in today's world actual kindness should be rewarded. In such a materialistic and hedonistic society, this "bare minimum" it's actually quite admirable and it should be pointed out. Somehow we now get mad at a person for saying they are good, but forget to realize we reward the bad ones without even being asked.

Exactly.  Like I said, I wasn't raised to be a violent, destructive person looking to pick fights and assert dominance over others.  I was raised to get along and live my life, and that's what I felt like doing.  I guess I am pretty harmless.  There are people I don't like and have angry thoughts about but I won't act on them because I know that I'd lose more than I'd gain and it probably wouldn't even help. I know it's not worth it. It would feel good in the moment to beat the honeysuckle out of a bad boy if I could and humiliate him in front of everyone, but the legal consequences would ruin my life, and what I would gain from living my life is worth more than the instant gratification of violence. Not only that but even if I won the fight, I don't think it would make women like me more.  But if I need to assert dominance to be attractive, but I don't believe in it or can't do it, then I'm stuck.  
  
Your last point, I agree with as well.  Today's world is trending towards materialism, hedonism, superficiality, and hyper-competitiveness to the point that the bare minimum of kindness is actually becoming rare.  People these days won't have anything to do with you if you don't have the right clothes, the right car, the right background.  

I'm not sure what I can do.  I can try to become more interesting and accomplished (maybe) but starting to be more harmful goes against everything I was taught to believe and everything that makes sense to me.

 

[Xpendable]

Peterson's point is that for a person like Bilbo to make a difference he has to do break the rules and behave like he hasn't before.

 

[Volt]

Not really, no. It's a conscious choice. Everyone can do evil, but chose not to. We've been told since birth "it's bad".
I don't believe in it coming out of different circumstances. I believe it's choice. Because the choice exist to not be so.
It makes it worse.

Yes definitely. I'm refering to circumstances triggering feelings you otherwise don't have. Of the course the choice to act on them or not comes afterwards.

 

[Xpendable]

Not really, no. It's a conscious choice. Everyone can do evil, but chose not to. We've been told since birth "it's bad".
I don't believe in it coming out of different circumstances. I believe it's choice. Because the choice exist to not be so.
It makes it worse.

There's a lot of people that can't do evil things not because what society may think, but because they really have a big sense of empathy and can't inflict harm in another person for no reason. It's a coincidence that most people who "choose" to do evil have been very traumatic events and have evil done to them too. There's a complex set of circumstances that create an evil person. There's also different types of evil. Like Stalin was different from Manson but none of them woke up one day and decided to do what they did. I doubt anyone here can choose to kill a family of commit genocide. I know there are extreme examples but the same applies to lesser crimes and how rarely couldn't anyone just stab another person without provocation.

 

[user 139760]

Not really, no. It's a conscious choice. Everyone can do evil, but chose not to. We've been told since birth "it's bad".
I don't believe in it coming out of different circumstances. I believe it's choice. Because the choice exist to not be so.
It makes it worse.

There's a lot of people that can't do evil things not because what society may think, but because they really have a big sense of empathy and can't inflict harm in another person for no reason. It's a coincidence that most people who "choose" to do evil have been very traumatic events and have evil done to them too. There's a complex set of circumstances that create an evil person. There's also different types of evil. Like Stalin was different from Manson but none of them woke up one day and decided to do what they did. I doubt anyone here can choose to kill a family of commit genocide. I know there are extreme examples but the same applies to lesser crimes and how rarely couldn't anyone just stab another person without provocation.

Of course they can.
Will is everything.
I don't want to go on an all-out debate on this, because this is an old question we could write about for 15 pages. But speaking out of personal experience, it IS a conscious choice. Even the most innofensive person can get up one morning and stab the mailman for looking at him wrong. Even without reasons. Most of us don't do it because we chose to not be that person, but each and everyone of us can if we decide to.
People are different because that's how the chose to be. Hitler could have been a great philosopher if he hadn't decided one day in a jail cell to write a book and murder 6 million Jewish. He was already a talented artist at the time as well.
Empathy and fear can erod over time. Which is why I never accepted the "I was forced to" or "I couldn't". Everyone can. It's been seen way too often.

 

[M_also_lonely]

There's a lot of people that can't do evil things not because what society may think, but because they really have a big sense of empathy and can't inflict harm in another person for no reason. It's a coincidence that most people who "choose" to do evil have been very traumatic events and have evil done to them too. There's a complex set of circumstances that create an evil person. There's also different types of evil. Like Stalin was different from Manson but none of them woke up one day and decided to do what they did. I doubt anyone here can choose to kill a family of commit genocide. I know there are extreme examples but the same applies to lesser crimes and how rarely couldn't anyone just stab another person without provocation.

I have been that person, i know what exactly it means. Not crimes or evil actions but desires of evil actions. You can see them rising in you over time but can't seem to do anything about it. Usually it's birth and growth is not a choice. But yeah, i dealt with them and now mostly free from the same. But yeah criminals are victims too.

 

[user 139760]

There's a lot of people that can't do evil things not because what society may think, but because they really have a big sense of empathy and can't inflict harm in another person for no reason. It's a coincidence that most people who "choose" to do evil have been very traumatic events and have evil done to them too. There's a complex set of circumstances that create an evil person. There's also different types of evil. Like Stalin was different from Manson but none of them woke up one day and decided to do what they did. I doubt anyone here can choose to kill a family of commit genocide. I know there are extreme examples but the same applies to lesser crimes and how rarely couldn't anyone just stab another person without provocation.

I have been that person, i know what exactly it means. Not crimes or evil actions but desires of evil actions. You can see them rising in you over time but can't seem to do anything about it. Usually it's birth and growth is not a choice. But yeah, i dealt with them and now mostly free from the same. But yeah criminals are victims too.

See, I don't agree with that, because I do think it's a choice. Case in point, you said it yourself; " i dealt with them". That was the choice. Some people never do. They just say it wasn't my choice and keep doing the same thing to other people and rot in jail for a number of years. I made that choice too, I improved myself. But walking around everyday knowing you could pop someone if you wanted to, that's a hard pull to live with. That's why I think it's a choice rather than a conditioning. Sadly, not everyone chose to walk away from that.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Guys...

If you were with someone, and you knew they didn't want to marry, but you had a desire to, would you ask anyway?

 

[ardour]

Guys...

If you were with someone, and you knew they didn't want to marry, but you had a desire to, would you ask anyway?

Someone's feelings might change but it would be a bad idea to go into it expecting them to.

I would be interested in eventually getting married so I probably wouldn't waste time with someone who felt that way. Not that I'll ever be faced with the choice, of course.

 

[beautiful loser]

I've always believed in "never say never", so yeah I probably would.  But then again, I never believed a certificate should determine if a couple was "married."  I"m fine without the certificate.  If she can put up with my weird ways, I'll spoil her rotten...to an extent

 

[kamya]

Guys...

If you were with someone, and you knew they didn't want to marry, but you had a desire to, would you ask anyway?

Maybe 

 

[DarkSelene]

But then again, I never believed a certificate should determine if a couple was "married."  I"m fine without the certificate.  If she can put up with my weird ways, I'll spoil her rotten...to an extent

I agree with this. Also, cute.

 

[Xpendable]

The girl I like likes the idea of a wedding but she would never share a bed with a man. I think I would ask her anyway.

 

[M_also_lonely]

See, I don't agree with that, because I do think it's a choice. Case in point, you said it yourself; " i dealt with them". That was the choice. Some people never do. They just say it wasn't my choice and keep doing the same thing to other people and rot in jail for a number of years. I made that choice too, I improved myself. But walking around everyday knowing you could pop someone if you wanted to, that's a hard pull to live with. That's why I think it's a choice rather than a conditioning. Sadly, not everyone chose to walk away from that.

I recently watched a documentary where a person was given imprisonment of 147 years, because he committed a murder at the age of 7 or 8 something. Do you think it was his own free will/choice, or something drove him to do so that he had no control of?  If it is the first one,  I wonder why would he want to go for such an act. 
In my case, I was presented with certain circumstances which led me to change, both times. Not like, on a random sunny day I was sitting on the terrace and decided, "lets become evil today" and a few days later, "lets become good today."

 

[user 139760]

Guys...

If you were with someone, and you knew they didn't want to marry, but you had a desire to, would you ask anyway?

I think anything can be talked about if approached in the right manner. It's a question of how you say it.
I believe there's no harm in just talking about something.

On a personal note, modern day marriages feel more like business deals now than they do a story about love. In the end, having a paper proving you're Mr and Mrs Harper isn't as important as BEING Mr and Mrs Harper as a fact.

---

See, I don't agree with that, because I do think it's a choice. Case in point, you said it yourself; " i dealt with them". That was the choice. Some people never do. They just say it wasn't my choice and keep doing the same thing to other people and rot in jail for a number of years. I made that choice too, I improved myself. But walking around everyday knowing you could pop someone if you wanted to, that's a hard pull to live with. That's why I think it's a choice rather than a conditioning. Sadly, not everyone chose to walk away from that.

I recently watched a documentary where a person was given imprisonment of 147 years, because he committed a murder at the age of 7 or 8 something. Do you think it was his own free will/choice, or something drove him to do so that he had no control of?  If it is the first one,  I wonder why would he want to go for such an act. 
In my case, I was presented with certain circumstances which led me to change, both times. Not like, on a random sunny day I was sitting on the terrace and decided, "lets become evil today" and a few days later, "lets become good today."

In the local papers yesterday, an 18 year old confessed to having abused, both physically and sexually, 50 other children since he was 10 years old.
You're saying he didn't?
Like I said, we could talk about this for 15 pages. I agree to disagree. I just feel it's a question of the individual and the choices he makes. I get what you're saying. I just don't see it that way.
Kudos ;-)

 

[Xpendable]

Choices don't come from nothing.

 

[M_also_lonely]

No. My question is, why did he do it.