Questions for the Men

[Sci-Fi]

 

[wallflower79]

I don't care about money in a showing off, "ha ha I'm better than you" way, I hate that.  But I do care about money in the sense that it makes a lot of sources of anger, frustration, stress, and all-around misery go away.  Same with social status.  If I had my way, I would completely disregard it.  I hate the "cool guys", have no desire to be one because I really do feel like they are bad people, and hate the idea that they decide all of the rest of us are defined by our place beneath them in the hierarchy.  But, as with money, the higher status you are, the better you are treated.  You're given more margin for error.  When you don't get something right, people are more likely to brush it off as a mistake instead of something inherent to who you are.  But when you're seen as low-status, people brush YOU off as the mistake, that failing, sucking, losing is in your DNA itself.  It's just more proof to them that you're inherently inferior.  It's this idea I've found out lately called "confirmation bias" which basically means that people tend to look for evidence that confirms what they already believe, and ignore evidence that goes against it.  I wish it didn't have to be this way.
....  
....

Personally I can't understand why we have to have these power games and dichotomies of dominance and submission.  I'm not looking for a slave to dominate, and I don't want to be anyone's slave either.  But, like with the social status, most people seem to think it has to be this way.  I always thought this would go away after school, but was disappointed to find out that it is still very much an issue.

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under? That there are many people, even ones who are not necessarily attractive or well-off, who don't spend the majority of their time thinking about dominance and submissiveness and how to gain power and social status, that people can live and die without even considering the possibility that others are trying to dominate them, that everyone is an individual and not all people have the same way of thinking as you do and do not even begin to consider the power struggle in regards to society for even a fraction of a degree to which you do?

All people have things that they are insecure about, even the most brashest, confident person can have things that make them break. We are all human. I do see what you're saying - I definitely try to avoid submitting to other women, and I know how it feels to be bullied, but I also realize that it shouldn't preoccupy my mind and be the predominant topic of conversation to my friends because I know it's likely they won't really understand or care. 

Just a thought, but if you read more novels -- literary novels, not YA and genre stuff - it can really help you begin to see things in the world as others see it and learn empathy for others in other situations, not just ones that you perceive to be the same as you. Also, entertain the notion that people can affect you as much as you let them. If you choose to ignore people trying to manipulate your behavior and not care what people think, they have less power over you. 

I remember seeing a video on reddit where the context seemed to be a woman had gone into a restaurant in Ohio at closing time and was upset because the girl behind her counter took her food when she wanted her money back.  The video is from the customer filming this girl because she tells her to leave and begins to lose patience with her. The girl becomes increasingly more hostile and then tells the woman that she can literally eat her *******. That's when things really heated up. The woman started saying things to the manager, who was standing right nearby and calling the girl weird and just generally trying to assert her dominance in the situation as a customer. Finally it came to the point as the girl was on the phone with the police, and the girl lifts up her shirt and bra to reveal her boob and says, "see that? that's my titty." There was a conversation in the comment section about why the girl did it. A majority seemed to think that it was an attempt to thwart any of the woman's attempt to subjugate the girl because then it would have been impossible to know how to react in that situation. There was also discussed the possibility that the girl knew she was being filmed and knew that because she was underage, all the videos online of her would be flagged, which I think is actually pretty clever. 

I think that people who just say f you to social norms and refuse to let people in their surroundings dominate and subjugate them are pretty cool and I do admire them and have done stupid things like that in the past, though not that exact reaction. I just think if you channeled that more into yourself, perhaps you would have more success in your endeavors. For what it's worth.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Maybe it’s a cultural thing because I don’t feel like there's a much of an obsession with financial status over here. (Obviously It’s a factor)

What's critical imo is that a man have very clear idea of who he is. That isn't really necessary for women.

Thank you, Ardour.  I guess it takes having lived this experience and seen these things to get it.  I didn't even mean what I said as an attack on women.  I only was pointing out something I've observed several times.  

I'm sure the status thing happens just about everywhere there are people, but it's probably worst in the US since the culture here is very obsessed with financial and social status.

So if you're creative, be creative. If on the other hand you're into  outdoor activities, whatever it is... project that. It increases that chances that someone will find you appealing based on their own preconceived idea of an ideal boyfriend/partner.  Being a bland everyday type with vague interests that aren’t followed through on isn’t helpful.

And of course the usual things associated with stereotypical masculinity helps,  like being emotional self-contained, not needing the validation of others, etc.

I agree with everything you've said here, especially the bold part.  I think that's a big part of why I've had and still have such a hard time with this.  I fell into being a bland, everyday type with vague interests that aren't followed through on, because of my fear that I'm untalented - there's never been anything that comes naturally to me, or is easier for me than for anyone else.  I want to be something other than a bland, everyday type, but I don't know what, how, or if I even can be.  Also, I've had to focus on practical things, which leaves little time and energy for the kind of stuff that makes a person interesting, or even to look for where to start. I simply don't have time or money to try every activity in the world to see what I might be good at or what I enjoy the most.  Between those things and not having those stereotypically masculine traits, I'm no one's preconceived idea of the ideal partner.  I fall through the cracks.

 

[DarkSelene]

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under?

This was so well put, I wanna up it.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under....

I don't think most people think about it, and if they do, they think "it's just the way it is". It's more subconscious. I think about this stuff a lot because one thing I've always hated is people looking down on me, talking down to me, dismissing me, acting like they are better than me and that they can afford to treat me like I'm worthless. I feel like the reason they do this is because they think I'm lower in status than they are, so they think that I'm useless to them, or that they can get away with it, or that it's their right because they think they are above me. I hate it and I want to make it stop, but to do that I have to understand it, and figure out what I can do about it to make people stop seeing me as a loser.

I do see what you're saying - I definitely try to avoid submitting to other women, and I know how it feels to be bullied, but I also realize that it shouldn't preoccupy my mind and be the predominant topic of conversation to my friends because I know it's likely they won't really understand or care. 

Yeah, I do understand that most people don't understand or care about this, both because they haven't had to so they don't relate, and because it's not a fun topic.

Also, entertain the notion that people can affect you as much as you let them. If you choose to ignore people trying to manipulate your behavior and not care what people think, they have less power over you. 

Kinda. But it becomes a problem when what other people think starts placing real-life limits on me. If I just stopped caring what anyone else thought, then I'd be going back to being confused about why I'm treated poorly and waiting for someone to "like me for who I am". I think I'd probably be alone for the rest of my life.

I just think if you channeled that more into yourself, perhaps you would have more success in your endeavors. For what it's worth.

Maybe. I don't know. I'm just trying to understand the rules of how this works so I can find a way out of this situation. I want to take control of the way things go for me, because leaving it up to chance has done nothing. I don't believe it's all random or that it's a numbers game, because the same kinds of people seem to almost always get what they want.

---

This was so well put, I wanna up it.

?? I thought you said that, like Peterson, a lot of how people behave comes down to biology.

---

I didn't intend for this to be such a big deal. I was just pointing out something I noticed. It wasn't even that much of a complaint, more like, "this is something I've seen several times now".

 

[DarkSelene]

Your thought process is far from that right now, Ska.

 

[kaetic]

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under....

I don't think most people think about it, and if they do, they think "it's just the way it is".  It's more subconscious.  I think about this stuff a lot because one thing I've always hated is people looking down on me, talking down to me, dismissing me, acting like they are better than me and that they can afford to treat me like I'm worthless.  I feel like the reason they do this is because they think I'm lower in status than they are, so they think that I'm useless to them, or that they can get away with it, or that it's their right because they think they are above me.   I hate it and I want to make it stop, but to do that I have to understand it, and figure out what I can do about it to make people stop seeing me as a loser.

I think you're putting too much importance on status. Maybe people are looking down on you, and treating you badly, I don't know you. But that really says more about them than you. You should try to stop worrying about what other people think of you and just worry about what you want your life to be.  

Also, entertain the notion that people can affect you as much as you let them. If you choose to ignore people trying to manipulate your behavior and not care what people think, they have less power over you. 

Kinda.  But it becomes a problem when what other people think starts placing real-life limits on me.  If I just stopped caring what anyone else thought, then I'd be going back to being confused about why I'm treated poorly and waiting for someone to "like me for who I am".  I think I'd probably be alone for the rest of my life.  

Can you give an example of the real-life limits you're talking about? Discrimination?
As far as the "waiting for some one to like you" why are you waiting? If you stop giving a crap about what other people think, it seems to me, it will open up some doors for you. You won't have to pick a job based on status. You won't have to worry about which car or home/apartment to lease/buy. You'll make choices based on what you want and screw what other people think because they don't matter. And maybe through this new job or maybe a club you joined because... why the hell not, it's your life, you meet some new people. Just guy friends... but the kind of guy friends you might not have hung around before because you thought they thought you were lower status. Turns out they think you're ok, not super awesome... you just met... but you all get to know each other, maybe go out for drinks, play on a sports/gaming league or something... and eventually one of their girlfriends says "Hey is your friend Skafish seeing anyone?" and you get set up on a blind date... it sucks. You get set up on a few more. They suck too. But all that experience has been building up some sort of confidence in you. You have guy friends, you've been on dates, you've probably gotten action on a few of them even if nothing longterm happened. Then one day you see some one interesting and you say hi... maybe it turns out well maybe it doesn't... but maybe it's better than how you're living now?

--it's almost 5am here and I won't be getting any sleep so indulge me the long, and poorly punctuated story.

 

[user 139760]

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under....

I don't think most people think about it, and if they do, they think "it's just the way it is".  It's more subconscious.  I think about this stuff a lot because one thing I've always hated is people looking down on me, talking down to me, dismissing me, acting like they are better than me and that they can afford to treat me like I'm worthless.  I feel like the reason they do this is because they think I'm lower in status than they are, so they think that I'm useless to them, or that they can get away with it, or that it's their right because they think they are above me.   I hate it and I want to make it stop, but to do that I have to understand it, and figure out what I can do about it to make people stop seeing me as a loser.

I think you're putting too much importance on status. Maybe people are looking down on you, and treating you badly, I don't know you. But that really says more about them than you. You should try to stop worrying about what other people think of you and just worry about what you want your life to be.  

Also, entertain the notion that people can affect you as much as you let them. If you choose to ignore people trying to manipulate your behavior and not care what people think, they have less power over you. 

Kinda.  But it becomes a problem when what other people think starts placing real-life limits on me.  If I just stopped caring what anyone else thought, then I'd be going back to being confused about why I'm treated poorly and waiting for someone to "like me for who I am".  I think I'd probably be alone for the rest of my life.  

Can you give an example of the real-life limits you're talking about? Discrimination?
As far as the "waiting for some one to like you" why are you waiting? If you stop giving a crap about what other people think, it seems to me, it will open up some doors for you. You won't have to pick a job based on status. You won't have to worry about which car or home/apartment to lease/buy. You'll make choices based on what you want and screw what other people think because they don't matter. And maybe through this new job or maybe a club you joined because... why the hell not, it's your life, you meet some new people. Just guy friends... but the kind of guy friends you might not have hung around before because you thought they thought you were lower status. Turns out they think you're ok, not super awesome... you just met... but you all get to know each other, maybe go out for drinks, play on a sports/gaming league or something... and eventually one of their girlfriends says "Hey is your friend Skafish seeing anyone?" and you get set up on a blind date... it sucks. You get set up on a few more. They suck too. But all that experience has been building up some sort of confidence in you. You have guy friends, you've been on dates, you've probably gotten action on a few of them even if nothing longterm happened. Then one day you see some one interesting and you say hi... maybe it turns out well maybe it doesn't... but maybe it's better than how you're living now?

--it's almost 5am here and I won't be getting any sleep so indulge me the long, and poorly punctuated story.

LOL Hot ****, you matchmaker you ;-)

Go to bed, sleep with the lights open and tv on, works for me LOL ;-)

 

[Xpendable]

Have you ever entertained the possibility that maybe not every action made by every individual in the world is in the context of some primordial power struggle that you think the whole of humanity exists under?

This was so well put, I wanna up it.

Too bad that's exactly how the world works.

 

[Xpendable]

[youtube]MgfIsrK5vYE[/youtube]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWZAQ0Wjptu/?taken-by=_alexablair


Everything goes according to the plan.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Maybe. I don't know. I'm just trying to understand the rules of how this works so I can find a way out of this situation. I want to take control of the way things go for me, because leaving it up to chance has done nothing. I don't believe it's all random or that it's a numbers game, because the same kinds of people seem to almost always get what they want.

There are no rules. You make these rules up because you try to find any excuse for why you don't have or can't get what you want. Want to take control? Get up and go do something. Want even more control? Stop giving other people the power to determine how you are by creating rules that you think every one else marches by. No one else is supposed to live for you, so perhaps you should stop living through everyone else.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

[youtube]MgfIsrK5vYE[/youtube]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWZAQ0Wjptu/?taken-by=_alexablair


Everything goes according to the plan.

I love Shari's Berries! Give them as gifts to all the special women in my life!

 

[wallflower79]

[youtube]MgfIsrK5vYE[/youtube]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWZAQ0Wjptu/?taken-by=_alexablair


Everything goes according to the plan.

Wow, that was really cool.

 

[Xpendable]

That's her instagram, you can see Garret didn't make it.

 

[kamya]

That's her instagram, you can see Garret didn't make it.

He must not have had enough confidence 

 

[TheSkaFish]

That's her instagram, you can see Garret didn't make it.

He must not have had enough confidence 

You all know how pessimistic I am about this topic, but at the same time, I think that Garret could have had a chance if he made some changes.  The problem is, he didn't make a strong enough case for himself, and he made a big case against himself by being timid and very stereotypically nerdy.  If he got some muscle, got better fashion sense, wore contacts instead of glasses, didn't have such a timid personality, and could make the girl laugh with him instead of at him, I think there was at least some possibility for things to have gone his way.  But that is a lot of work, and he would probably never even think of it, because everyone around him would probably just tell him "be yourself!", even as it leads smack into a wall over and over again.  People who tell him that might mean well, but they just don't know that they're wrong.  "Being yourself" works for the guy in the instagram picture, maybe...I'm not so sure guys like that are really "being themselves" or if they made a decision to be whatever was considered "cool" early on and never really developed a "self", but that's a separate topic.  But "being yourself" generally does not work for guys like Garret, especially with girls that look like the one he was trying to impress.  Him dancing like that was brave, but he was doing a lot of work in the wrong direction.

I think it would be hard for someone like Garret to not be timid though, since being timid is the result of being uncertain and cautious because you don't know the right things to say or do automatically, and you're coming from a place of not having a lot of power.  And it's also hard to be funny if you're not naturally a comedian and not really interested in that role, you're just doing it because you have to, because that's what a lot of women like.  

To succeed in mating, an organism needs to out compete same-sex rivals and attract members of the opposite sex. For males, this involves status seeking displays of dominance and aggression and investment in traits and displays that are attractive in short-term mates, such as humor, intelligence, and creativity (Kaufman, Kozbelt, Bromley, & Miller, 2008).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...part-iii-romantic-attachment-in-the-fast-lane

This is what guys like Garret, and me, and a lot of other guys are up against - biology.  It explains a lot of what I've experienced.  Biology is on the "cool guys'" side, and against guys like me and Garret, so it's a downhill battle for them and an uphill battle for us.  I never liked the idea of displaying dominance and aggression, I was taught it was wrong and could screw up the rest of my life, and I found it primitive, low-brow, and shameful.  Plus I couldn't do it even if I wanted to.  Humor, eh, I do have a sense of it, but I've never been interested in being the clown.  I'm content to laugh at other people's jokes instead of making my own. But that means it's another suit where I don't have the high cards.  That leaves intelligence and creativity, which are things I would want and are in line with my goals, but I don't know if I have those either.  And even if I did, I just don't know if it would be enough.

 

[user 139760]

Seriously?
Who cares about a 13 year old (now what, 18 or 20 or so, who apparently is the topic of an internet thread where people rate how good her FEET look, god people are sick) that has an instagram account so full of classic stereotypical pictures it's almost a wonder she isn't head of the school cheerleaders and dated the Captain of the football team? (Oh, wait...)

I don't know the kid, but if I WAS Garett? I think I could do a helluva lot better than that. She smacks of the actress they didn't pick for "Legally Blonde 2". Hopefully he got together with someone that's a lot less fickle and shallow than her internet life seems to insinuate.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Seriously?
Who cares about a 13 year old (now what, 18 or 20 or so, who apparently is the topic of an internet thread where people rate how good her FEET look, god people are sick) that has an instagram account so full of classic stereotypical pictures it's almost a wonder she isn't head of the school cheerleaders and dated the Captain of the football team? (Oh, wait...)

I don't know the kid, but if I WAS Garett? I think I could do a helluva lot better than that. She smacks of the actress they didn't pick for "Legally Blonde 2". Hopefully he got together with someone that's a lot less fickle and shallow than her internet life seems to insinuate.

That's true.  She does seem a lot like your standard "basic girl", which isn't someone I'd want to hang out with either.

 

[TheRealCallie]

 

[user 139760]

Why is everyone posting this?
Give that moron an aspirin and move on for Pete's sake.

;-)