Recent convo on "friend-zoning"

[EveWasFramed]

An online female friend of mine asked me for a bit of advice recently. I admit that I understood and was baffled at the same time.
She's been on a few dates with a guy that she's known for a bit (nothing serious, just the occasional activity she explained). Apparently, the guy has made it clear that he'd like to have something "more" with her (like maybe "dating" status). She went on to tell me about some of the things that keeps her from being more than just friends with the guy. A couple of them really baffled me (I guess everyone is different) and some of them...well, I can easily see why she would keep the guy in the "friend zone."
She said that she'd mentioned a couple of her concerns to him, but he just kept on doing whatever it was that caused her concern. She said that she didn't want to get serious with someone when she knew full well that some of the stuff that bothered her would just eventually cause her to dislike the guy.
Her question to me, was whether or not she should be 100% honest with him, and tell him about the things that keep him in the friend zone (so maybe he can learn something), or just say that she's isnt interested in anything more and save his pride.
I was a bit torn on this one. I can see why (based on some of the things she told me) that her telling him why she isnt interested in more would likely assassinate the guy's self-esteem. On the other side of the coin, I can't help but think about some of the recent posts here from male members that are confused as to why they get friend-zoned and have no idea why.
Is it better to save the person's self-esteem and leave them confused or to tell them exactly WHY they are still in the friend zone?
I found that I couldn't offer her any solid advice, as I've never found myself in that position before. Today though, thoughts of the conversation still linger.
I suppose I see now why some people just come up with some plausible excuse as to why they aren't interested in being with someone, rather than hurting them with the truth.
I don't honestly know what I'd do in her situation.

 

[Cavey]

I'm as torn as you are and can't really give you a definitive answer.

On the one hand, if I don't know about prospective flaws in my character, then I cannot fix them. On the other hand, those same things may well be loved by another partner and I'm not sure how readily I'd take advice from someone who just rejected me.

I know one thing for sure though: If I were the one on the other end, I would never tell the other person since it's probably going to end in drama at best and losing a friendship at worst.

 

[perfanoff]

She should tell him Eve. It would be good for him to be aware of why he's getting rejected and he can move on and change/look for somebody else.

And there's no real friendship when the two parties are not at the same page. If one is romantically interested in the other, but the other is purely platonic, that is nothing worth keeping in terms of feelings, honestly.

The problem is that he could be spending a lot of effort playing a game that he's already out of. He'd wise up eventually and the later he does, the worse the hit on his ego would be

 

[EveWasFramed]

She should tell him Eve. It would be good for him to be aware of why he's getting rejected and he can move on and change/look for somebody else.

And there's no real friendship when the two parties are not at the same page. If one is romantically interested in the other, but the other is purely platonic, that is nothing worth keeping in terms of feelings, honestly.

The problem is that he could be spending a lot of effort playing a game that he's already out of. He'd wise up eventually and the later he does, the worse the hit on his ego would be

I find myself leaning toward this opinion also, but I can also put myself in that same position (the guy's) and wonder how I'd feel in that same situation. If she tells the guy, she puts herself in the uncomfortable position of having him (likely) hate her for wounding his self-esteem. On the other hand, if the stuff that she doesn't care for about him is stuff that he'd rather address than risk it being an issue with a future possible relationship, it would be the kinder thing to do. So, basically, she will have to put herself in his crosshairs to do him a kindness. I dunno how many people would be willing to place themsleves in that situation.

 

[perfanoff]

I see what you mean, sigh. C'est la vie

 

[WildernessWildChild]

I'd rather be told why I'm in the friend zone. I guess I'm likely different that way since I'm not really looking (or able to offer anything to be completely honest) for anything beyond friendship. I've been lucky enough to experience the best that can be found in a relationship (unfortunately the worst as well) and truly appreciate why those who haven't had those experiences want them. That's why I encourage honesty as to "status"- its far better to know where you stand with someone than be in a situation that just has a person hanging on with the pointless hope of something more.

 

[perfanoff]

^ Did you just write something I can agree on? That's a new one ...

 

[EveWasFramed]

I'd rather be told why I'm in the friend zone. I guess I'm likely different that way since I'm not really looking (or able to offer anything to be completely honest) for anything beyond friendship. I've been lucky enough to experience the best that can be found in a relationship (unfortunately the worst as well) and truly appreciate why those who haven't had those experiences want them. That's why I encourage honesty as to "status"- its far better to know where you stand with someone than be in a situation that just has a person hanging on with the pointless hope of something more.

I agree with what your're saying here....Im sort of in that same place at the moment.
But that last part, about the person hanging on...
I don't think she will have a problem telling him she doesn't want more, she just isnt sure if she should say she isn't looking for more or to tell him about whatever the things are that he does that she doesnt care for. I don't know all the specifics about why she doesnt wanna have more with him, but from what she said, it's personal stuff that would likely hurt his feelings.
I guess I can sympathize with that - I loathe hurting another person.

 

[WildernessWildChild]

^ Did you just write something I can agree on? That's a new one ...

Who'd have thunk it....? You're going to be right once in awhile (lol).

 

[EveWasFramed]

LOL, Ive found myself agreeing with Perfanoff quite a bit recently.
And also wanting to club WWC but that's another matter....

 

[perfanoff]

I know right

 

[WildernessWildChild]

Your friend has nothing to gain other than the possibility of hostility/animosity if she decides to get into detail with the guy in question as to why its not there for her. It's better for both if she just indicates that she's simply not ready for commitment.

As far as clubbing me, take a number folks....

 

[EveWasFramed]

Your friend has nothing to gain other than the possibility of hostility/animosity if she decides to get into detail with the guy in question as to why its not there for her. It's better for both if she just indicates that she's simply not ready for commitment.

As far as clubbing me, take a number folks....

So then your opinion is NOT to tell him the "why" of it?

As for taking a number, I have 1,3,4 and 6. Who the hell has 2 and 5??

 

[kamya]

I might be different from most guys but I would appreciate someone telling me why. My self esteem wouldn't be shattered at all. I would just be motivated to try to improve myself.

And actually, it just pisses me off when I'm in the dark or people lie to try to save my feelings. I've said time and time again on this forum that it's 100 times better to tell the truth about this kind of thing. Whether friend zoning someone, or breaking up with someone, don't be vague or lie to try to save my feelings. It's selfish and makes me angry more than anything. So far no one has ever done this to me. It's always "Oh you're great trust me, nothing is wrong with you. blah blah blah". BULLSHIT!

As for this

Your friend has nothing to gain other than the possibility of hostility/animosity if she decides to get into detail with the guy in question as to why its not there for her. It's better for both if she just indicates that she's simply not ready for commitment.

As far as clubbing me, take a number folks....

You could say that but if you are friends with this person and actually care about them, wouldn't you want to help them out by telling them these things? That way they can look at themselves and maybe improve themselves for the future? You gain the feeling that you are helping your friend. Even if you get hostility/animosity, that's what you do when you care about someone. Ever notice how people that are honest and speak their minds are generally well respected and liked in their social circles?

 

[Bones]

... Her question to me, was whether or not she should be 100% honest with him, and tell him about the things that keep him in the friend zone (so maybe he can learn something), or just say that she's isnt interested in anything more and save his pride ...

Personally, I believe a person should be honest, but it is how you tell the person.

Normally, in such a situation, I use the sandwich method (+, -, +):

~ Say something positive
~ Say something "*negative" and
~ end with a positive.

*For the "negative," it is important to say it in a polite, respectful way.

(Also, it may help to understand Operant Conditioning because she could be reinforcing the negative behavior unintentionally.)

 

[EveWasFramed]

I guess it sort of boils down to if she's willing to tell him exactly why she doesnt want to be more than friends with him. I suppose if I were in her shoes, and I cared about the person (as a friend) then I'd consider telling them, even if it meant losing them as a friend. At least that way, he might have an opportunity to learn from the experience and possibly make some positive changes.

 

[WildernessWildChild]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this- will brutal honesty benefit his self esteem and will it make her feel better? I'd have to say no to both, using some tact is the only way to go. The other thing for her to consider is this- maybe those things she doesn't like about him are her hang ups and would be seen as charming or endearing to someone else. I've kind of experienced being told some "home truths" in a dating situation where some of my habits/traits drove the partner I had at the time crazy (who'd think I would drive anyone crazy?). Later on I came to the realization she was uptight/slightly high-maintenance but I still suffered needlessly for awhile due to someone else's standard. Did I benefit from her sharing my "shortcomings"- not a bit. Did it hurt and leave me confused- absolutely.

 

[Sigma]

Aint no easy way out here, you're gonna have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.
Since no 2 people are the same it's hard for anyone on a forum to know what that is.
Either you keep keep ignoring the elephant in the room, keeping the illusion that he has a shot and eventually his self esteem will break down anyway since he isn't getting anywhere, or you give him the truth which will, if his personality allows it, mean you can both move forward.
As for me personally I'd prefer the truth every time, and I don't mean brutally honest here, like others have said just bring it subtly, but don't try to sugarcoat it too much or you'll (in my eyes) come across as patronizing.
Here's another thing to consider, if being honest is something bad enough to break a friendship, was it a friendship worth keeping?

 

[MellyVinelli]

From reading the OP, I believe the concerns are behaviors that can be changed. It's not as if she couldn't stand his nose or his webbed feet. Therefore I think it is definitely better to be honest. However, i believe the ball is on his side of the court to take the cues she is already telling him...the behaviors that she doesn't like. I don't think she has to necessarily reveal more than she already has. She has voiced some of her concerns and he hasn't done anything about it. She has already been honest. He needs to be a better listener and determine whether changing these behaviors result in would result in him becoming someone he is not and lose himself or if it is just a matter of a little better personal hygiene.

If at this stage where he is supposedly all in with the girl and still not hearing what she told him she doesn't like, there are some huge communication problems already...

 

[ajdass1]

I think she doesn't have any obligation to tell him why she's not interested. In fact, from what you've said she's already told him what she doesn't like about him but he hasn't changed it.

So I guess it's totally up to her. She CAN tell him if she wants to. But even if he changes those things, will she start being attracted to him? Will he feel like she'll be attracted to him if he changes himself for her? Is it worth changing those things about himself for her or waiting for someone who doesn't mind those things? Are the two of them even capable of having a frank discussion about what aspects of him are desirable or undesirable without it getting messy? It seem like it might be opening a can of worms unless you do it with the right person, someone you can have that sort of discussion with.