The Nice Guy Curse

[Coeur]

I guess manners are not being taught these days.

Taking different values from one's own into consideration rather than insulting them and saying they're bad is part of the set of manners I was taught. Buying dinner for women on principle seems unnecessary and excessive to me and I'll refuse it, but I'm sure it's well-intended and reasoned from whatever point it's coming from. It's not really chauvinistic or anything like that in and of itself.

On the topic of pleasing women in a way that isn't "lose-lose", you can't please anyone the world over with a single strategy. Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

 

[Iceman1978]

Here's a bit of sage advice.
If you invite someone out, pay for it. It's that simple.
If I invite someone out, I pay for it. Even when it's friends or family. It really is that simple.

I agree.

 

[Fustar]

I guess manners are not being taught these days.

Taking different values from one's own into consideration rather than insulting them and saying they're bad is part of the set of manners I was taught. Buying dinner for women on principle seems unnecessary and excessive to me and I'll refuse it, but I'm sure it's well-intended and reasoned from whatever point it's coming from. It's not really chauvinistic or anything like that in and of itself.

On the topic of pleasing women in a way that isn't "lose-lose", you can't please anyone the world over with a single strategy. Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

That is true everyone has a different view on bad and good sets of manners, but we all know what in general is rude, and what is polite. The whole paying for the date thing depends on who you are, how you were raised, and ultimately on what you believe to be the right course of action. Either side should not get mad about the concept, whether a lady wants to pay her half is up to her, I'm just saying I will attempt to perform what I see as good manners.

Boiling it down to an analogy of fishing, now that's awesome lol.

 

[blackdot]

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

 

[Fustar]

Or change bait lol

 

[Coeur]

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

You clearly want to sulk and not talk, so I'm out.

 

[Fustar]

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

You clearly want to sulk and not talk, so I'm out. Have fun.

Don't leave some people just see the negative, its okay.

 

[Coeur]

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

You clearly want to sulk and not talk, so I'm out. Have fun.

Don't leave some people just see the negative, its okay.

I'm not leaving the forum, I'm just not discussing it.

 

[Fustar]

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

Bait your hook with what you want to catch and accept that the fish who don't eat what's on it at the time aren't going to bite. They're not doing it out of spite or poor manners.

So in other words, give up because there are no fish in the sea.

You clearly want to sulk and not talk, so I'm out. Have fun.

Don't leave some people just see the negative, its okay.

I'm not leaving the forum, I'm just not discussing it.

Well I didn't think that's what you meant, which is good. But I would like to hear more of your opinions on the matter if your willing to share. I'm not really into to debating the issue myself.

 

[Iceman1978]

I think that part of the issue is not the "nice guy curse" but the fact that there are a lot of women with self-esteem issues. The sister of a childhood friend of mine is an example of this. She's about three years younger than I am and struggled with self-esteem issues for as far back as I can remember. She's a lot prettier than she's ever given herself credit for, and if I'd been living in the same city by the time we were old enough to be dating I would have asked her out.

Eventually she married a guy she met from work. They have a child together, but he's not exactly father or husband material. Sometimes he puts her down, he's a control freak, inattentive to the needs of the baby, and just plain lazy. I found out through her brother that the only reason she married him is because at the time she didn't believe she could do any better.

Very sad, but I think there are a lot of people in that exact situation.

 

[Fustar]

I think that part of the issue is not the "nice guy curse" but the fact that there are a lot of women with self-esteem issues. The sister of a childhood friend of mine is an example of this. She's about three years younger than I am and struggled with self-esteem issues for as far back as I can remember. She's a lot prettier than she's ever given herself credit for, and if I'd been living in the same city by the time we were old enough to be dating I would have asked her out.

Eventually she married a guy she met from work. They have a child together, but he's not exactly father or husband material. Sometimes he puts her down, he's a control freak, inattentive to the needs of the baby, and just plain lazy. I found out through her brother that the only reason she married him is because at the time she didn't believe she could do any better.

Very sad, but I think there are a lot of people in that exact situation.

Thats very sad, but you hear stories like that all the time. People are just settling. I think that attitude doesn't help anyone, and certainly doesn't help anyone better themselves.

 

[blackdot]

You clearly want to sulk and not talk, so I'm out.

meow!

 

[Sarah_Lbnz]

Its the fact that those old world values are outdated, society has told us its wrong to treat women like this. Paying for a date is chauvinistic and not treating women as equals. However its just something that seems like the right thing to do. I don't understand the world, I grew up and didn't understand why the way I was raised made me an outcast, or at least different.

It's how I was raised too. Here are the rules my father taught me when it came to dating.

1) Never, ever honk the horn when you pull up to the house. It doesn't matter if it's the first date or the hundredth.

2) If it's a first date, a holiday, or special occasion; always bring flowers.

3) Introduce yourself to her parents.

4) Open the car door, hold the door for the restaurant or theater.

5) Always pick up the tab.

6) Let her pick the radio station.

Just to name a few.

One of my ex-boyfriends did all this. But then he raped me, which kind of through that whole "gentleman" show out the window.

Still. I was a poor student and he was kind enough to pay for the odd burger here and there, so that was nice.

 

[Iceman1978]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I sure hope he went to prison.

 

[Sarah_Lbnz]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I sure hope he went to prison.

Aw, thank you. Also: that's so cute and naiive of you.

Nah, the dude is well loved, still has all his friends, a good job, and he's going to be getting married soon to some sweet and hot girl.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

You can't let women walk all over you. That's not being nice, that's being passive, and it is manipulative.

 

[Coeur]

I think that part of the issue is not the "nice guy curse" but the fact that there are a lot of women with self-esteem issues. The sister of a childhood friend of mine is an example of this. She's about three years younger than I am and struggled with self-esteem issues for as far back as I can remember. She's a lot prettier than she's ever given herself credit for, and if I'd been living in the same city by the time we were old enough to be dating I would have asked her out.

Eventually she married a guy she met from work. They have a child together, but he's not exactly father or husband material. Sometimes he puts her down, he's a control freak, inattentive to the needs of the baby, and just plain lazy. I found out through her brother that the only reason she married him is because at the time she didn't believe she could do any better.

Very sad, but I think there are a lot of people in that exact situation.

I think self-esteem can be part of it, but it's the complexity of abuse that seals the deal. Enough so to have various theories circulating and a good deal of research going on.

When you consider that gaslighting is also a thing, it opens up a new world of information on the nasty things people can do to each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

If this comes from someone a person already trusts or cares for, it can get under their skin pretty quickly.

 

[Fustar]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I sure hope he went to prison.

Aw, thank you. Also: that's so cute and naiive of you.

Nah, the dude is well loved, still has all his friends, a good job, and he's going to be getting married soon to some sweet and hot girl.

He should be in prison, or get a good ol fashioned beat down. I know hate isnt the answer, but people like that deserve no kindness. This is why real "good men" have to jump through lots of hoops. It only takes one bad apple to give us all a bad name. I'm serious about the beat down, he should be layed into a coma.

 

[Solivagant]

I've had multiple women I have gone out with get upset with me for paying the tab for the first date.
I really just have no clue what it is women want. Even when I do something nice, it pisses them off.

Really?? They get upset because you insist on paying?

I'd be pretty upset if someone I didn't know insisted on buying me things even after I'd politely turned down the offer. The values I was raised with are completely different from the values that say a man should give a woman things just because.

Sometimes people buying something for strangers is nice. One time at a coffee shop someone spilled their coffee and someone got them a new one. It's different in a dating scenario because it's not a random act of kindness, it's an investment in something that may or may not be at that point and if someone doesn't share those "courting" values it puts them on the spot. It's a little bit like if one of the breeders I talked to while looking for a bird insisted on giving me a fancy birdcage, some fine food, homemade toys, etc, to be a good businessperson before I'd decided whether or not I wanted their bird.

Maybe some people would love the free stuff, but I'd feel self-conscious about all the goods I was taking, in good will or not, from someone clearly hoping we'd close the deal in the future when it was still quite possible I'd wind up with one of someone else's birds. To me, turning all that down is courtesy and good sense, not a disdain for generosity or any such thing.

^ This!

But also this:

If you invite someone out, pay for it.
If I invite someone out, I pay for it. Even when it's friends or family.

You should plan on paying. I wouldn't do what duff says and suggest 50/50 to her first, because then she'll feel pressured to agree unless she wants to seem like a high-maintenance moneygrubber. But don't insist upon paying if she has expressed that she wants to pay her half. If she feels more comfortable paying her half, let her.

As for myself, gestures like flowers, offering a coat, pushing in a chair and so on are appreciated for their effort, but would ultimately have no bearing on how "nice" I think someone is. Gallantry is meant to impress and not necessarily an indication of good character. Good liars will use gentlemanly manners to charm women, only showing their true colors later down the road. It can also be the sign of someone controlling. It's not always motivated by good intentions. Likewise, a person could make none of those traditional gestures and still leave me impressed by their kindness and courtesy.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

I would pay for the tab, if I really liked her and wanted to make an impression.

However, I am inexperienced, so I don't know how an actual date works.