Ugliness

[darkwall]

When you see mothers buying accessories for their babies, like the barbies they used to know (this is how capitalism conditions you): when you see the mindless freaks silent with grief on the pavements, you know that there is a lot of ugliness in human nature.

But we must analyse it for all that it's worth. It is not important to understand beauty (sometimes even detrimental) - it is essential to understand ugliness and accept it. Yesterday I was alone again in a group: it is in our survival instincts to reject loners like diseased animals. You've done it before, and had it done to you. It is of the upmost importance that we see it for what it is, and incorporate it into our understanding of people.

Depression can be a good thing, a sign. If you don't see it as a disease, it can let you know that you're getting too close - or too far. I've made myself a deal. I hate my life here, and no amount of drugs will ever change it as it is. If you make five advances, four of them will be rejected, but that last one may open up a vista.

I'm going to approach five university people online and manoeuvre my way into a social life. If it fails, I quit. That's the deal. I don't want to look at people like a sick animal any more. I don't want to look at them and feel confined by them, defined by them, whatever. We're herd animals. The only happiness we can ever know is a contiguous one.

 

[Unacceptance]

We're only heard animals do an extent. Though it may feel that way you don't have to let others define you.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Barbie sucks.

 

[darkwall]

Unacceptance, don't you realise that you can only ever be the person that the people around you want you to be? If you go into work, you're a good worker. If you rob your work, you're a criminal. If you ignore others, you're weird. The same way that your facial expressions decide your actual emotions (if you make yourself smile you feel happier, if you frown you feel more pissed off) we are formed by others' reactions to us.

We are herd animals, simply because we cannot feel fulfilled on our own. We can choose to be apart, but that will only ever lead to loneliness. Human beings are the only animals that build their own cages: we construct our own identity and position in society or have it done for us by others, and are confined in them for the rest of our lives. We can only exist comfortably in these cages, and if we leave them we face unhappiness and (ironically) a perceived "lack of direction".

 

[Unacceptance]

This is what I have a problem with, it's either their reaction to us which we define and they deal with, or it's what they want us to be and our reaction in response to it.

They are actually opposite things, and in one scenario you are in control in the other, they are.

Also, who says you find happiness within the cage? And what exactly is wrong with a lack of direction, or purpose?

 

[Lonesome Crow]

Eye candi...yummi

A women's vagina...ain't the prettiest thing in the world..
Why oh why I find so much beauty in it ?

You have a chioce...You have a chioce...you have a chioce.
Try to chose happiness. You are complete as you are.
Try to stay centered and balance as best you can.
They are external forces that will push and pull us..
There's also internal forces within ourselves. It too push and pull us.
At the end of the day...Know that your okay as you are..
Forgive yourself and others as best you can...sometimes it's hard and most difficult.
Whatever your hopes and dreams are...you deserve it.
There's always going to be others that's better than you and there's always going to be others that's less than you.
Chose to better yourself without putting down others...Stay willing to grow and learn.
No matter where you are at...life will always have more to offer you.
None of us really know what's best for anyone of us..It dosn't have to be anyway.
Do what works for you..
Above all chose to love and be kind to yourself, however you chose to go about it...It's okay.

yes..it make sence to me...what you say about depression.
Regconition and Acceptence....no longer living in denial.
Now you're taking steps or seeking treatment and trying find out what work best for you.
Yes, recovery takes time and it dosn't happen over night.

Yes..I had to sit in my own honeysuckle or hell for a while to know what that is.
Wheather it was a mental or emotional bottom. The threashold had been breached.
I know alot of the hell was of my own making. It became clearer.
I found the key of freedom in the depth of hell. It's a paradox.
I have a chioce...I have a chioce. my responsiblities, my love, my power, my inner strength.
I chose the route of no medications....but you don't have to do that.
Chose what works best for you.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Unacceptance, don't you realise that you can only ever be the person that the people around you want you to be? If you go into work, you're a good worker. If you rob your work, you're a criminal. If you ignore others, you're weird.

Well, if you decided to rob someone, of course you're a criminal. Don't rob people, and you wouldn't be a criminal. People don't decide that for you. You do. Ignoring people doesn't automatically mean you're weird either. I don't ignore people much, and I'm still weird.

You decide the person you want to be. No one else decides that for you. If someone is so weak as to come across being whatever people make of them, that's also on them. You can't really change what people think of you, but still, they don't decide who you are or how you act. I'm pretty sure some people would like to make me out to be someone different to make themselves feel less challenged, but they won't. Because I decide who I am.

 

[darkwall]

Unacceptance -

Society will never let you be happy: happiness is not as profitable as need. You are allowed better times, if you conform. It is of course we who are defined and formed by others, from the age before memory where we couldn't define ourselves. It's a pop psychology cliche, but look at the differences between beautiful and ugly children, youngest and eldest children, etc. etc. It is without question they who limit us.

 

[darkwall]

Vanillacreme, the point is that criminals do not exist - they're just a label society makes for them that in turn they view themselves as. We see the absurdity of this when old people are given criminal records for ridiculous things that make the news - by definition, they are as much a criminal as a murderer, but as you now see such things are totally inadequate. You're not "weird" if you ignore others - they give you that label, and with the power that words have, it puts you on the level of other "weird" things in their minds - things you have no more in common with than the old granny has with a child-killer.

You don't decide who you are. You aren't free to make that choice: deep down, you even fear it, because if you were truly free to rip out your roots and put them down again as you wished, those roots would be meaningless. No: we are defined by the past, formed for us by our parents, the honeysuckle they put into your head, and our early peers. We are in turn further limited by society's expectations that you can do nothing but meet either by becoming rebel or slave.

Human beings are in general incredibly stupid. I don't say that to create a sort of inclusiveness i.e. that you and I are not stupid - we are probably as full of prejudices as the next person. What it means is that we can only see things as a single image. We can either see someone as a good person or a bad person, despite the fact that there are many different images inside of us. Society will carve a statue around your flesh in which you must remain - we make choices about ourselves while trapped in the sarcophagus of our external nature, our mannerisms, our memes - and who is to say that these do not inform what's on the inside rather than our internal life governing our appearances?

 

[SilentThinker]

Dun let failure stop you from advancing in friendship.I loved that point you make about humans are herd animals.No man is an island and we are all dependent on each others indirectly or directly.

It is pretty sad that when they notice some of the traits like arrogance,they began not to see beyond that perception and fails to look at the good traits.For me,I made it a practice not to judge anyone because I believe that judging the imperfect through imperfect is not something smart.All men are imperfect and why judge?

 

[Unacceptance]

Unacceptance -

Society will never let you be happy: happiness is not as profitable as need. You are allowed better times, if you conform. It is of course we who are defined and formed by others, from the age before memory where we couldn't define ourselves. It's a pop psychology cliche, but look at the differences between beautiful and ugly children, youngest and eldest children, etc. etc. It is without question they who limit us.

Excellent. So then, my question to you is, why the point about approaching folks and wishing for better times? If you already know you will not be happy why the pursuit of something you know you can't achieve.

 

[Steel]

Vanillacreme, the point is that criminals do not exist - they're just a label society makes for them that in turn they view themselves as. We see the absurdity of this when old people are given criminal records for ridiculous things that make the news - by definition, they are as much a criminal as a murderer, but as you now see such things are totally inadequate. You're not "weird" if you ignore others - they give you that label, and with the power that words have, it puts you on the level of other "weird" things in their minds - things you have no more in common with than the old granny has with a child-killer.

You don't decide who you are. You aren't free to make that choice: deep down, you even fear it, because if you were truly free to rip out your roots and put them down again as you wished, those roots would be meaningless. No: we are defined by the past, formed for us by our parents, the honeysuckle they put into your head, and our early peers. We are in turn further limited by society's expectations that you can do nothing but meet either by becoming rebel or slave.

Human beings are in general incredibly stupid. I don't say that to create a sort of inclusiveness i.e. that you and I are not stupid - we are probably as full of prejudices as the next person. What it means is that we can only see things as a single image. We can either see someone as a good person or a bad person, despite the fact that there are many different images inside of us. Society will carve a statue around your flesh in which you must remain - we make choices about ourselves while trapped in the sarcophagus of our external nature, our mannerisms, our memes - and who is to say that these do not inform what's on the inside rather than our internal life governing our appearances?

Ok, I disagree. Most people are actually far more intelligent than even they give themselves credit for. Predjudice is rooted in ignorance and fear... this is not the same as a lack of intellect.

Yes, as humans we are hard wired to feel predjudice, but this is something that can be broken with perseverence. While it is tempting to believe that everyone sees things in black and white rather than shades of grey, this is far from the case. For someone to see people as "good" or "bad" then one must be prepared to label people in such a way - I for one do not do this, and I'm hardly alone in lacking such polarity of vision.

Which returns to the original point, and I agree with what Unacceptance has already said. You may choose to allow yourself to be defined by others, but that is a choice you make. If I decide to go skinny dipping, this does not make me an exhibitionist. An observer may decide this is the case - however, just because someone believes something to be true doesn't make it so.

Exactly the same is true of allowing our pasts to define us. Yes, they are part of who we are... but an individual chooses whether or not to allow themselves to be defined by this. For an example, someone who has a traumatic childhood may choose to become a victim later on... or they may choose not to.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

Unacceptance -

Society will never let you be happy: happiness is not as profitable as need. You are allowed better times, if you conform. It is of course we who are defined and formed by others, from the age before memory where we couldn't define ourselves. It's a pop psychology cliche, but look at the differences between beautiful and ugly children, youngest and eldest children, etc. etc. It is without question they who limit us.

Be like water...
Water is flexiable.
Water flows through every crack and around any object and continue
on it's path

example...A current flowing to then around an Island.
The water comforms to the island...but the current continue on it's
path.
The island = society, government, corporations, culture, ideaism, relationships... (people, places and things).etc

The current/water = you
The island dosn't define you as a whole. It might effect a part
of you.

Yes..it's a challenge and difficult task for a lot of us.
To participate in life with others (at any level) without losing ourselves.

To live a balance life...between , Work, Love, play and belief (warship).

That's why I take time out ..to be alone with myself.
1-2 hours a day. To get to know me..To be okay with me. To gether myself.
So that I don't forget me or lose me.

Yeap...As i got better or more well. I went out and tried to be a productive member of society.
**** if it didn't tried to suck me dried again..... the **** rat race.
My life or recovery program started to get unmanagable real fucken fast.
I stopped working out , jogging, journaling or my morning meditations.
I start feeling sick and losing myself again.
Yes,...I can relate to what you are saying.

So...you bascailly asking how to living within a society without losing yourself ?
In other words...you don't want to be a pawn in someone's else game, idea ?
Be define by someone's idea of what your life should be or who you are ?

Freedom...at the core of your being ?

Yes...Humilities.
Being humble is accepting yourselves as humans..
We all have our strength and weakness.

See..Steel is calling me on my honeysuckle...or the message is getting through.
Maybe it's a god thing ..IDK
I'm playing the fucken victim again...becuase I fucken chose too.
That's the chioce I made...recognition and acceptence of that...
Am i going to chose pain or happiness today ?..The chioce is mine.
I'm not that stupid....crazy but not stupid
I like it the fucken pains becuase it makes me feel alive...lol
Fucken hard wired like a son of a *****...lmao.
My body seek comfort...fucken pussy feels good, and taste good.
fresia honeysuckle up to feel the pain to fresia the pussy....a visous cycle.
I can laugh about it...becuase I messed up again..again....(healing/forgivness of myself)
All of the fucken guilt and shame will lead me into depression...if I don't forgive myself.
Doing the same honeysuckle again and expecting a different result is fucken insanity.lol
Ultimately if i get crazy enough...I'll start drinking and using again...
becuase of the compounded progressive of pains i inflicted on myself...my fucken DIS-EASE
The chioce is mine. Plenty of hard wired women wanting to take me home and fixed my ass..*sigh*

 

[darkwall]

Unacceptance - I think you overlooked "you are allowed better times if you conform". Does that answer your question?

 

[Brian]

I like capitalism. It makes me wealthy at the expense of others.

 

[darkwall]

Steel - you are quite wrong, most people think they are much more intelligent than they actually are, and five minutes watching any gameshow will bear this out. The People killed Jesus, the People poisoned Socrates ... you think that was in the past? Yesterday a verdict of "manslaughter" returned from 10 of the 12 members of the jury for a guy who stabbed a paedophile TWENTY TIMES. The People are quite devoid of the ability to think for themselves, and all of us have joined their ranks at some point. You know that experiment where the participants electrocuted an actor to what they thought was his death? Either the People are bad, or they are stupid: I prefer to believe the latter (and I don't pretend for one second I wouldn't have done the same).

You're being ridiculous when you say that victims choose to become traumatised or not. I would say that is proof of the weakness of your argument.

Listen: let's say tomorrow I will become a REBEL. I choose this, right? Wrong. I can only follow patterns cut for me by others, wear clothing like they wear: I will struggle to get jobs, and the rebellion itself is quite illusory. If most people could choose the things that mattered most about themselves, they'd be billionaires with successful relationships, but the fact is that we are really reacting to a mould society gives us. There are no true originals. All of us students have to struggle to adjust to the framework thrust upon us, so that we are FORCED to become a part of it.

It might seem like I am saying something really obvious - i.e. that real life isn't a ballgame - but the truth is that we spend our whole lives being limited by the people around us. We adopt ideas, take up paths, rejoice in the illusion of variety that capitalism thrusts on us, i.e. that there is really a difference between a plumber and a banker and that the work gives people "meaning". We are forced by others into a niche - if other people didn't exist, YOU COULD BE WHOEVER YOU WANTED. One moment, you could be a nice person, the next you could be an amazing genius - there'd be no-one there to say "kid, you're not that smart".

Don't you realise that even what you are doing now is emblematic of the system? You walk in with prepackaged values and attempt to undermine the minority perspective. You are doing to me exactly what people have been doing my whole life. Pssh. Don't say "you can let yourself be defined by others" - you know **** well that we are subject to the majority, enslaved to the limited options history has carved out for us, and are forced to adopt a personality so that we don't confuse ancillary characters in our lives by being completely different from one day to the next - we are defined by others' inability to discern facets in us.

 

[sammy]

I am me, and there's not a **** thing anyone can do to alter that!

I choose to be me, I choose to live my life the way I want.
I choose to be affected by others opinion of me.
I choose to ignore those opinions.

This is as easy as it gets: I AM ME

 

[darkwall]

Just to end this bickering, OK? If you're going to seriously try and continue this, please think of a colour that hasn't been invented yet. You can't do it because all you know is what comes before you - we aren't free because we are DEFINED BY WHAT IS AROUND US - the people, the ideas, the facts of nature. You don't choose who you become, the process is an unconscious one and overwhelmingly influenced by the people around you. Therefore you are not who you want to be, and because of that the things you do aren't the things you really want. You are merely a small part of the large group of humans milling around you, and any choice you think you have is really the same choice that they think they have. Society is basically a way to fast-track what would be negotiations between millions of people - "you want to be leader? Well, I kind of want to be the leader. Hang on, she wants it as well." so society makes your real decisions for you. "OK, you HAVE to get a job, right, but look! You can be a fireman OR drive a policetruck! Look at the choices you have available! How can you think you're not free?"

 

[darkwall]

Sammy - one of the simplistic ideas that humans hide behind is that there is a "you". If we could delve into the true meaning of the word, it would come out as an equation looking like: "genetics + parenting/childhood experiences + privileges + education + society's laws, philosophies and values + the people you meet ..."

There isn't much of "you" left, really, is there? Do you really think you're a unique combination? I wouldn't argue with that, but consider the dust spinning in the air - every fragment is different, yet the differences are not essential.

If "you" were born in slaving times, "you" would be quite happy owning a slave. Does that sound like "you"? Thought not. Because ... YOU ARE DEFINED BY THE EXTERNAL WORLD, AND NOTHING YOU EVER DO WILL BE FREE FROM IT. YOU ARE EVEN THINKING RIGHT NOW USING ITS SYMBOLS.

 

[sammy]

Now you're not making any sense at all...
As i said, I am me, I define myself. I can be influenced by the world around me, but at the end, the choices I make are MINE.
I don't wear sunglasses because my friend does.
I don't read that specific book because someone told me it was good.
I don't eat eggs because my mom said I should
I don't feel lonely because you do
I don't bicker about this because you say I do

What you are saying is, my choice of quitting my job, selling my stuff, and going backpacking a year, is a choice made by those around me?

'I' wasn't born in the slave times, therefor that wasn't 'me'!
Me is here, now, this life!