Why Dating Sucks for Average Guys

[AnonymousMe]

I said you have badass vibes, actually, and added that you look nice. Maybe try to put only information that would make the ladies want to learn more about you, like not being too literal so they can come up with a question to start a conversation? I don't know, this site is the most social I'm willing to be, I'm sorry if the advice is subpar.

It's OK, lnlflwr, I'm gonna delete the app anyway.  I sent PM's to many girls that lived in my city, yet none responded, so I'm not gonna bother with it anymore.  I can't believe I got lots and LOTS more praise on a gay dating app (BiggerCity [for fat men]) than a straight one.  -_-
Also, don't be afraid in giving advice here, your voice matters, no matter what you say.    I mean, look at an earlier post I did here, I voiced my opinion, yet nobody gave a honeysuckle about it, but I said it nevertheless. 

 

[lnlflwr]

I said you have badass vibes, actually, and added that you look nice. Maybe try to put only information that would make the ladies want to learn more about you, like not being too literal so they can come up with a question to start a conversation? I don't know, this site is the most social I'm willing to be, I'm sorry if the advice is subpar.

It's OK, lnlflwr, I'm gonna delete the app anyway.  I sent PM's to many girls that lived in my city, yet none responded, so I'm not gonna bother with it anymore.  I can't believe I got lots and LOTS more praise on a gay dating app (BiggerCity [for fat men]) than a straight one.  -_-
Also, don't be afraid in giving advice here, your voice matters, no matter what you say.    I mean, look at an earlier post I did here, I voiced my opinion, yet nobody gave a honeysuckle about it, but I said it nevertheless. 

To be fair, you did tell people to ignore you in the post! Your voice matters too, don't dismiss yourself!
By the face I'm guessing you're not bisexual so the attention you got on the other app didn't register much, right?

 

[AnonymousMe]

To be fair, you did tell people to ignore you in the post! Your voice matters too, don't dismiss yourself!
By the face I'm guessing you're not bisexual so the attention you got on the other app didn't register much, right?

If you're referring to BiggerCity, then you're mistaken.  I consider myself Heteroflexible, which has two definitions: 1) You mainly want relationships with the opposite sex, but won't deny casual encounters with the same one; 2) You're mainly attracted with the opposite sex, but can be attracted to very specific types of the same sex too.  #2 is what applies to me.
As a chubby guy myself, I have soft spot for chubby and feminine guys (as long as they're bottoms ), so I thought it'd be a good idea to start in a place where there's other like me.  Within a few days, I got praise from many, many men, more than I did in my whole life, so the attention was very welcomed.   :shy:  However, it's mainly girls what I like (heck, I even dream of dating two at the same time!) and not getting any attention from WooPlus was... discouraging.  It's the cold, sad reality I had to face: I'm not gonna get anything as I am now, so all I can do is work-out, get in shape and pray somebody likes me, because I have to deal with my mild, autism too and a fresia-ton of other issues that make me really, REALLY, REEAALLY hate myself.   (Which I am trying to fix.)

 

[lnlflwr]

To be fair, you did tell people to ignore you in the post! Your voice matters too, don't dismiss yourself!
By the face I'm guessing you're not bisexual so the attention you got on the other app didn't register much, right?

If you're referring to BiggerCity, then you're mistaken.  I consider myself Heteroflexible, which has two definitions: 1) You mainly want relationships with the opposite sex, but won't deny casual encounters with the same one; 2) You're mainly attracted with the opposite sex, but can be attracted to very specific types of the same sex too.  #2 is what applies to me.
As a chubby guy myself, I have soft spot for chubby and feminine guys (as long as they're bottoms  ), so I thought it'd be a good idea to start in a place where there's other like me.  Within a few days, I got praise from many, many men, more than I did in my whole life, so the attention was very welcomed.   :shy:  However, it's mainly girls what I like (heck, I even dream of dating two at the same time!) and not getting any attention from WooPlus was... discouraging.  It's the cold, sad reality I had to face: I'm not gonna get anything as I am now, so all I can do is work-out, get in shape and pray somebody likes me, because I have to deal with my mild, autism too and a fresia-ton of other issues that make me really, REALLY, REEAALLY hate myself.     (Which I am trying to fix.)

Don't you think that being flexible, and enjoying a casual encounter with one of those chubby hotties, could open the realm of possibility of being loved by one? If you got a lot of attention and you like it, seems like a good direction. 
This is quite interesting because recently I had a conversation about what it feels like to not have any attraction towards one sex. I'm bisexual and was always open to all possibilities, so I wanted to understand. This is adding a whole new depth to that conversation. (unfortunately, I don't think we should discuss this here) 

Everyone has issues but not everyone is self-aware and recognizes them, on top of that you're working on improving what you think is necessary. You should be proud of yourself, not hating!

 

[AnonymousMe]

(unfortunately, I don't think we should discuss this here)

Yeah, you're probably right, I'll send you a PM, but tomorrow.  I've been doing homework all day and I'm dead tired.  We'll continue this conversation later, for now, I'm off to Dreamland.
Good night, lnlflwr.  zzz...

 

[Efbee]

the only thing i request is please watch the entire video before commenting as attempting to criticize a position without actually looking into it is specious & banal:

Thank you for sharing your experience with images, they are worth a thousand words.

As for "Bella" and you, those things happen literally every day. At the start of your video, I thought you were going to share something earth-shattering. Being friend-zoned is nothing to cry about, especially when you knew from the beginning and still allowed yourself to hope against hope and wish against wish. 
You may have heard talk about "women are weird and they never say what they mean" and "their feelings override their judgment" all that stuff designed to confuse you into thinking that maybe her "no" is really a "yes" under the right circumstances or depending on your attitude and yaddy-yadda... and maybe that is one reason you stuck around and wasted your time with her because you hoped her "no" was going to turn around to be a "yes" under some circumstance of your making. Forget about all that. The best thing you can do for yourself is to take women at their word. If she says "no" make sure you do understand "NO" and not maybe or later or if when... You had time to pursue another love interest but chose to follow Bella like a lost puppy because you wouldn't take her clues seriously. You didn't think the friendzone was for good and definitive. 
I hope you won't make the same mistake twice.

 

[ardour]

the only thing i request is please watch the entire video before commenting as attempting to criticize a position without actually looking into it is specious & banal:

Thank you for sharing your experience with images, they are worth a thousand words.

As for "Bella" and you, those things happen literally every day. At the start of your video, I thought you were going to share something earth-shattering. Being friend-zoned is nothing to cry about, especially when you knew from the beginning and still allowed yourself to hope against hope and wish against wish. 
You may have heard talk about "women are weird and they never say what they mean" and "their feelings override their judgment" all that stuff designed to confuse you into thinking that maybe her "no" is really a "yes" under the right circumstances or depending on your attitude and yaddy-yadda... and maybe that is one reason you stuck around and wasted your time with her because you hoped her "no" was going to turn around to be a "yes" under some circumstance of your making. Forget about all that. The best thing you can do for yourself is to take women at their word. If she says "no" make sure you do understand "NO" and not maybe or later or if when... You had time to pursue another love interest but chose to follow Bella like a lost puppy because you wouldn't take her clues seriously. You didn't think the friendzone was for good and definitive. 
I hope you won't make the same mistake twice.

Agree, men should take women at their word, as there's no excuse for not doing so, but in many cases these guys don't express direct interest in the first place. Somewhere along the line we got the idea we needed to become good friends with women first because of what society/feminism preaches  around women being more complex emotionally/less superficial (when in reality women seem to know if they're interested straight away). The worst thing society does to young men is lie to them about the nature of attraction. So they go on a long goose chase orbiting around female acquaintances who in many cases barely tolerate them.

Socially awkward, low confidence men are also prone to internalizing negative stereotypes about men, hence they become even more ashamed and less willing to express desires. A lot of them spend years hovering around the same women hoping they'll get noticed one day; The alternative - verbalizing what they want, is inconceivable.

 

[Efbee]

the only thing i request is please watch the entire video before commenting as attempting to criticize a position without actually looking into it is specious & banal:

Thank you for sharing your experience with images, they are worth a thousand words.

As for "Bella" and you, those things happen literally every day. At the start of your video, I thought you were going to share something earth-shattering. Being friend-zoned is nothing to cry about, especially when you knew from the beginning and still allowed yourself to hope against hope and wish against wish. 
You may have heard talk about "women are weird and they never say what they mean" and "their feelings override their judgment" all that stuff designed to confuse you into thinking that maybe her "no" is really a "yes" under the right circumstances or depending on your attitude and yaddy-yadda... and maybe that is one reason you stuck around and wasted your time with her because you hoped her "no" was going to turn around to be a "yes" under some circumstance of your making. Forget about all that. The best thing you can do for yourself is to take women at their word. If she says "no" make sure you do understand "NO" and not maybe or later or if when... You had time to pursue another love interest but chose to follow Bella like a lost puppy because you wouldn't take her clues seriously. You didn't think the friendzone was for good and definitive. 
I hope you won't make the same mistake twice.

Agree, men should take women at their word, as there's no excuse for not doing so,  but many cases these guys don't express direct interest in the first place. Somewhere along with line we got the idea we needed to become good friends with women first because of what society/feminism preaches  around women being more complex emotionally/less superficial (when in reality women seem to know if they're interested straight away). The worst thing society does to young men is lie to them about the nature of attraction. So they go on a  long goose chase orbiting around female acquaintances who in many cases barely tolerate them.

Socially awkward, low confidence men are also prone to internalizing negative stereotypes about men, hence they become even more ashamed and less willing to express desires. A lot of them spend years hovering around the same women hoping they'll get noticed one day; The alternative  - verbalizing what they want, is inconceivable.

I agree with you. One of the problems is that a lot of men nowadays have grown up without a father so where did that peer bonding and social education come from? TV, schools and women who know nothing about what it is to be a man and when you have society telling them fairy tales about marriage and relationships, it's no wonder that these individuals grow up confused, with all sorts of useless notions, ironies swept under the rug, destructive and self-abasing feelings and a logic alien to their physiology.
One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest.

 

[TheSkaFish]

One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest.

I wouldn't say that's a good thing. It's tragic. Or that survival of the fittest is a good thing either. It's a misery.

That's like saying war, disease, or poverty are good things. The strong survive, the weak don't. Idk, seems like a regressive, uncivilized view if you ask me. The world could be better than that, and I feel that if it could, then it should. And if it doesn't, then it's by definition evil, or at the very least, unworthy of respect. If the world creates and allows misery where misery need not exist, then I'd say that's evil.

The other thing that always gets me whenever I see someone advocate for survival of the fittest, is that if things were a little bit different - not even all that much, just if your luck was a little bit worse - then it would be you wondering why dating never works out for you, with no answers why. There is not as much difference between you, and the "unfit", as you think. It could very easily have gone the other way. The only reason it didn't, is luck.

Not everyone was born lucky enough to have the right stuff to be among the "fittest". It's no one's fault, it's just random chance.

But everyone deserves an at least OK, normal life. And dating is a part of normal life. It's not an extra, like being famous or owning a Lamborghini. It's more fundamental than that, something that everyone wants at their core, for fulfillment, well-being, peace of mind, and a life well lived. At least that's what I believe.

 

[Efbee]

One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest.

I wouldn't say that's a good thing. It's tragic. Or that survival of the fittest is a good thing either. It's a misery.

That's like saying war, disease, or poverty are good things. The strong survive, the weak don't. Idk, seems like a regressive, uncivilized view if you ask me. The world could be better than that, and I feel that if it could, then it should. And if it doesn't, then it's by definition evil, or at the very least, unworthy of respect. If the world creates and allows misery where misery need not exist, then I'd say that's evil.

The other thing that always gets me whenever I see someone advocate for survival of the fittest, is that if things were a little bit different - not even all that much, just if your luck was a little bit worse - then it would be you wondering why dating never works out for you, with no answers why. There is not as much difference between you, and the "unfit", as you think. It could very easily have gone the other way. The only reason it didn't, is luck.

Not everyone was born lucky enough to have the right stuff to be among the "fittest". It's no one's fault, it's just random chance.

But everyone deserves an at least OK, normal life. And dating is a part of normal life. It's not an extra, like being famous or owning a Lamborghini. It's more fundamental than that, something that everyone wants at their core, for fulfillment, well-being, peace of mind, and a life well lived. At least that's what I believe.

Far from me to contradict what you believe. Just as long as you don't project anything onto me.
I have very specific reasons and reflections on and about when I say "One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest." I know it isn't a very empathetic thing to say but just as you know that those young men will be scarred for a long time from the kinds of experiences talked about in this thread, just know that I and many other men my age have also been scarred. Just because I was the kind of guy that didn't have to beg to get laid doesn't mean that I and those like me didn't have it rough, doesn't mean we didn't get rejected and it doesn't mean that we enjoyed every minute of our experiences with women. So much so that now we're the ones giving advice to those troubled young men today so that they can wake up, smell the bacon and realize that women aren't just going to love them simply for existing, that life is hard, unfair and that people will act in an evil way when their benefits are plenty and closeby. Once you remove all illusions, the world is a pretty scary place but running away or demanding that things be changed for some utopian unattainable ideal isn't the answer.

 

[ardour]

One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest.

That depends on how you attribute blame. Social awareness depends on a number of factors as you've acknowledged. Add in an overbearing mother figure and it gets even worse.   Plenty of otherwise intelligent guys will spend their lives alone because of this. They could have been good husband material.

 

[TheSkaFish]

That depends on what you consider 'fitness', and where exactly the blame lies.  Proper intuition and social awareness depend on a number of factors to do with upbringing...

That, and I'd also say natural traits and talent, as well as interests and just disposition.  It's hard to become the ideal "confident" man when you don't think you were born with anything to brag about, and don't have the size to criticize and challenge others.

Plenty of otherwise intelligent guys will spend their lives alone because of these misconceptions.

And that's why I'm none too eager for a STEM or business career.  There are plenty of guys in those jobs, that just can't inspire any women to feel the right emotional response for attraction.

In my personal experience - individual mileage may vary - if you're not cocky/full of yourself, reckless/a risk-taker, aggressive/possibly even violent or at least implying it, or mocking/teasing/sarcastic/cynical/edgy/offensive, you're probably going to have a bad time.

(^trying not to think this way all the time, pessimism colors my views sometimes, it goes back and forth a lot)

Unless, of course, you're good enough at something to be impressive and interesting (and possibly rich, it never hurts) without being macho.  But I'm afraid that depends on the luck of what you were born with as well.

Again, this stuff isn't true 100% of the time, but I have experienced it, seen it happen, and heard about it from others a lot.

---

Where I differ with OP though, is that, according to his own posts, he lifts and is in great shape, and makes good money.  So I'm not sure what's wrong.  To me, it seems he shouldn't be having that much of a problem.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Far from me to contradict what you believe. Just as long as you don't project anything onto me.

Sure thing.

I have very specific reasons and reflections on and about when I say "One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest." I know it isn't a very empathetic thing to say but just as you know that those young men will be scarred for a long time from the kinds of experiences talked about in this thread, just know that I and many other men my age have also been scarred. Just because I was the kind of guy that didn't have to beg to get laid doesn't mean that I and those like me didn't have it rough, doesn't mean we didn't get rejected and it doesn't mean that we enjoyed every minute of our experiences with women. So much so that now we're the ones giving advice to those troubled young men today so that they can wake up, smell the bacon and realize that women aren't just going to love them simply for existing, that life is hard, unfair and that people will act in an evil way when their benefits are plenty and closeby. Once you remove all illusions, the world is a pretty scary place but running away or demanding that things be changed for some utopian unattainable ideal isn't the answer.

I get some of the things you're saying. It makes some sense. It's just that I happen to be an idealist, so I tend towards a more empathetic worldview. We might be fundamentally different in that way. I know the world is scary, hard, and unfair, but I also feel like while it is true that we might never get all the way to utopia, things can always be better than they are and better than they've been, and just because it can't be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try, if we can.

I don't know. I guess, my worldview formed from growing up in 90s American suburbia. To me, it seemed like the "bad old days" were over - the world seemed to be getting less violent, there seemed to be less scarcity, the future seemed just around the corner technologically, and almost every house in my neighborhood contained a couple. It just seemed normal.

I say "seem" a lot. Looking back I don't know if things really were this way. But that was the impression that formed in my mind of what "normal" was like.

 

[Efbee]

One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest.

That depends on how you attribute blame.  Social awareness depends on a number of factors as you've acknowledged. Add in an overbearing mother figure and it gets even worse.   Plenty of otherwise intelligent guys will spend their lives alone because of this. They could have been good husband material. And women aren't judged by their 'fitness' in reading the opposite sex since they get to remain passive.

I'm not trying to lay blame at anyone's feet as I believe the blame game to be useless and destructive. I really feel for today's young men and my son is in the same predicament although he has his dad to talk to and receive advice from. They are bearing the brunt of a coerced and corrupted social agenda one hundred years in the making and with all I've experienced, seen, and heard, I know I wouldn't want to have been born 20 years later than my birthdate, even if I deem it still too late. I'm happy to be 51y/o in our day and age!
All I can do is offer advice in the hopes that some young man's brain goes TILT!! 
And the overbearing mother is so true that it's become a cliché.
As far as "reading the opposite sex", I've frankly never even bothered with it. I always went with my intuition and being real. I've hardly even ever flirted with girls. I always figured that if a woman wanted to be with me then she'd be with me, without all the excuses and the pretending. All that PUA stuff is such nonsense, it only shows how desperate men are to score a gorgeously smart lass instead of taking care of themselves first and foremost.

 

[Efbee]

Far from me to contradict what you believe. Just as long as you don't project anything onto me.

Sure thing.

I have very specific reasons and reflections on and about when I say "One good thing is that the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly while the dim-witted will moan and cry until there's no one left around them. Survival of the fittest." I know it isn't a very empathetic thing to say but just as you know that those young men will be scarred for a long time from the kinds of experiences talked about in this thread, just know that I and many other men my age have also been scarred. Just because I was the kind of guy that didn't have to beg to get laid doesn't mean that I and those like me didn't have it rough, doesn't mean we didn't get rejected and it doesn't mean that we enjoyed every minute of our experiences with women. So much so that now we're the ones giving advice to those troubled young men today so that they can wake up, smell the bacon and realize that women aren't just going to love them simply for existing, that life is hard, unfair and that people will act in an evil way when their benefits are plenty and closeby. Once you remove all illusions, the world is a pretty scary place but running away or demanding that things be changed for some utopian unattainable ideal isn't the answer.

I get some of the things you're saying.  It makes some sense.  It's just that I happen to be an idealist, so I tend towards a more empathetic worldview.  We might be fundamentally different in that way.  I know the world is scary, hard, and unfair, but I also feel like while it is true that we might never get all the way to utopia,  things can always be better than they are and better than they've been, and just because it can't be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try, if we can. 

I don't know.  I guess, my worldview formed from growing up in 90s American suburbia.  To me, it seemed like the "bad old days" were over - the world seemed to be getting less violent, there seemed to be less scarcity, the future seemed just around the corner technologically, and almost every house in my neighborhood contained a couple.  It just seemed normal. 

I say "seem" a lot.  Looking back I don't know if things really were this way.  But that was the impression that formed in my mind of what "normal" was like.

Yes, I know exactly where you're coming from because my kids are also the products of a 90's American suburbia. I do agree with you that things can always be better and that just because perfection is unattainable doesn't mean we do not try. I used to be an idealist myself and I may still be, under all the realist, but just as you're wondering where "normal" has gone, I'm wondering where all that "Equality" they have been talking so much about for the past 50yr has gone. Was it even there and possible to begin with? I seriously doubt it now. 
We are living on a troubled planet, at a crossroads between a new expansion into the future or a future disaster of monumental and galactic proportions. Every facet of our lives has been turned on its head from workplace behavior to what a family really is passing by how we shop and consume and how we interact with each other. All those changes are aggravated by group identity agendas, politics, war, crime, and injustices so flagrant that hundreds of thousands of people around the world go out into the streets to demand justice for this or that...
I guess what I'm saying is, forget "normal", that's out the window. Now we have to see things through the prism of "it's all messed up" because, well, it really is.

 

[ardour]

The problem I have is that you're still endorsing a view where the onus is on men to put up with flakiness and deal with their pain privately. Hard truths should not be confused with essentialist thinking, as if there were something innately right about that. Not in the current crazy state of affairs that labels men 'problematic' while still expecting them to act on their desires. That's what the under 30s are dealing with. Bipolar gender expectations: Rather than be yet another voice from one of those extremes, empathy might be more helpful.

 

[Efbee]

The problem I have is that  you're still endorsing a view where the onus is on men to put up with flakiness and deal with their pain privately.  hard truths should  not be confused with essentialist thinking, as if there something innately right about that. Not in the current crazy state of affairs that labels  men 'problematic' while still expecting them to act on their desires. That's what the under 30s are dealing with. Bipolar gender expectations: Rather than be yet another voice from one of those  extremes, empathy might be more helpful.

I think you misunderstand where I stand and I haven't been as clear as I know I can be. 
I adamantly am NOT endorsing the view that the burden should be on men to put up with all the flakiness and deal with it privately. Not at all. That is contrary to what I'm saying. I absolutely believe that men shouldn't try to deal with these modern issues all by themselves and I encourage each one of them to seek support in whatever form they feel comfortable with. There aren't many readily available support groups for men as there are for women but they do exist online and in an informal manner irl. The help is there, for someone who truly wants to find it. Hell, it could even take the form of a couple of gentlemen's advice in a pub once a week.
I truly know what you are referring to and talking about, we are on the same page. It's just that these days, maybe I cannot be so psychologically invested into it anymore as I used to be. I know the topic inside and out, I know it all too well but maybe my ways of putting those ideas down on paper nowadays reflect how utterly frustrated and tired I am of all that stuff to the point of barely giving a honeysuckle anymore. I guess I can't be very concise if the subject matter makes me want to puke.