On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[Alonewith2cats]

I deleted this guy as a contact from my phone because when I told him I didn't feel chemistry but I like him as a person (although not anymore) he said that he didn't join OK Cupid to make friends.

So if you don't mind me asking, how was he on the date? Was he rude, ugly/out of shape, smoker, unemployed, gross, boring, or had clashing views? For example, if you were a republican and he was a democrat? Was he really pessimistic, angry, complaining and whining, or sad on the date?

I just want to see where people go wrong, so if you could tell me, that'd be great.

He was great on the date. His true colors didn't come out until after I let him know I was not interested in him sexually. When I let him know I liked him as a human being but didn't feel any sparks (and of course I wouldn't have known this without giving it a chance by spending some time to get to know him in the form of 2 and half dates). If you read the conversation in my original post, and I copied this from my cell phone, you can see there is quite a bit of anger, frustration, resentment, and overall negativity in his messages to me. His whole reason for texting me last night didn't come from good intentions either, it wasn't even to really say "Hi, how are you?" even though he started out with that in order to get his point across. He just wanted to complain to me that I and who knows how many other women didn't want to f**k him even though he was "nice" and invested his time and money, treating them to dinners and how it was a waste of time for him (because he didn't get laid). He might as well have just said "Thanks a lot for wasting my time and my money on your coffee, pastry, Churro and Ice Cream in Old Town and chinese food and not giving me sex in return." I don't know if I need to state this but I always offer to pay my way on dates. If a guy says "I got it" I think he's being a gentleman.

 

[1000lifetimes]

The guy sounds like a loser...expects something in return for being nice?!?!?

I thought you were supposed to be nice to people!!! Its thanks to bozos like this who turn being polite and courteous into some sort of sick game that make dating even more complicated. If you feel you should be rewarded for being nice....you might not be a nice guy after all.

Lemmy/Ozzy can say it better than me...so I'll leave it to the professionals
[video=youtube]

 

[TheSkaFish]

He was great on the date. His true colors didn't come out until after I let him know I was not interested in him sexually. When I let him know I liked him as a human being but didn't feel any sparks (and of course I wouldn't have known this without giving it a chance by spending some time to get to know him in the form of 2 and half dates). If you read the conversation in my original post, and I copied this from my cell phone, you can see there is quite a bit of anger, frustration, resentment, and overall negativity in his messages to me.

Yea I saw that. The whole conversation was pretty much complaining, and I can certainly understand that he would come off as unattractive if that's how he was to you on the date. But what made you feel that there were no sparks, even though he was great on the dates? Did the dates or conversations get progressively more and more boring?

Not taking you to task. Just trying to understand the pitfalls men get into, so I can avoid them myself.

 

[Case]

But what made you feel that there were no sparks, even though he was great on the dates? Did the dates or conversations get progressively more and more boring?

Not taking you to task. Just trying to understand the pitfalls men get into, so I can avoid them myself.

We all (I hope) know what "the spark" is when it happens. I don't think any of us can avoid the "no chemistry" feeling unless we never date. Most of the time, the spark just isn't going to be there, and we just have to start over with the next person and the next until we find the chemistry.

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation, depression, sadness, anger, and entitlement will all kill chemistry dead. (Of course, in my humble opinion. I will be interested in seeing how 2cats feels about it.)

 

[TheSkaFish]

We all (I hope) know what "the spark" is when it happens. I don't think any of us can avoid the "no chemistry" feeling unless we never date. Most of the time, the spark just isn't going to be there, and we just have to start over with the next person and the next until we find the chemistry.

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation, depression, sadness, anger, and entitlement will all kill chemistry dead. (Of course, in my humble opinion. I will be interested in seeing how 2cats feels about it.)

I would agree with the bottom ways to kill it, as you said. I've done some of these and when I looked back at the words I said and the way I carried myself I could understand why it was no good.

The first part though, I don't agree with. Not to start barking up this tree again but I just don't believe that it is this big chance element. I believe it is a skill, an offshoot of general charisma. Romance is a sort of negotiation, even manipulation in a sense though no one likes to use those words because it takes away from the magic, and those words have bad connotations.

I'd like to hear what 2cats has to say about it, as well. I'm curious.

 

[ardour]

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation...

In other words you can only have what you don't want. That's great. Thank you..

 

[Ymir]

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation...

In other words you can only have what you don't want. That's great. Thank you..

You can want something without being needy or desperate.

 

[Tealeaf]

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation...

In other words you can only have what you don't want. That's great. Thank you..

You can want something without being needy or desperate.

^

Nobody wants to feel like a means to an end. Neediness and desperation carry the implication that it's the attention and validation someone is after, and that it wouldn't really matter if they're the one giving it or anything else with a pulse. It's distinctly not enjoying the relationship as-is.

It's also incredibly uncomfortable to have someone pushing for way more than you're ready to give or comfortable with giving.

 

[Case]

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation...

In other words you can only have what you don't want. That's great. Thank you..

Maybe I'm wrong. Tell me what you find attractive about neediness and desperation.

Are you using these tactics successfully in your own dating efforts?

 

[Alonewith2cats]

He was great on the date. His true colors didn't come out until after I let him know I was not interested in him sexually. When I let him know I liked him as a human being but didn't feel any sparks (and of course I wouldn't have known this without giving it a chance by spending some time to get to know him in the form of 2 and half dates). If you read the conversation in my original post, and I copied this from my cell phone, you can see there is quite a bit of anger, frustration, resentment, and overall negativity in his messages to me.

Yea I saw that. The whole conversation was pretty much complaining, and I can certainly understand that he would come off as unattractive if that's how he was to you on the date. But what made you feel that there were no sparks, even though he was great on the dates? Did the dates or conversations get progressively more and more boring?

Not taking you to task. Just trying to understand the pitfalls men get into, so I can avoid them myself.

Believe it or not you can be the best you that you can be and if the chemistry is not there then there is nothing you can do about it. It's nobody's fault, it's an animalistic attraction thing, it's either there or it's not. Sometimes it's immediate and sometimes it takes a little time. He didn't do anything wrong on the date. I just wasn't feeling it and I gave it a chance. I liked him as a person only, no physical desire. I expect that there will be men I'm attracted to and they won't like me the same way and I'm not going to take it personally. It happened to me before, it goes both ways.

Well, they say confidence is attractive so the only advice I can give you is be confident and be your best self and and most important be real. Also relax and have fun and don't worry because you don't want to be too nervous. I guess I would give myself the same advice.

 

[ardour]

Maybe I'm wrong. Tell me what you find attractive about neediness and desperation.

Are you using these tactics successfully in your own dating efforts?

I haven't had a date since I was 18, so I have no idea how I would react or what to consider needy in the first place. They're not "tactics" any way, and not something you can just turn off. It's the result of a lifetime alone without any positive attention from the opposite sex.

 

[Ymir]

I can tell you that needy and desperate people sometimes, and I stress the word sometimes, are the worst to deal with. Several reasons, ladies and gentlemen, and I will make a list:

A) You never know if they really like you or the attention you are willing to give them. They idolize you. You are their world. And then you might not be able to give all the attention they want and they'll either push you harder until you have to cut 'em off or they scold, guilt-trip and demonize you, which is manipulative. Some needy people will do anything to get attention. (SOMETIMES)
B) SOMETIMES they want things to go too fast for one's liking. Some people don't like to rush into relationships and guess what needy and desperate people love to do?
C) GENERALLY needy people also might trade you easily. They like attention. And if there's someone else to give them more attention, even for a short time...

Usually, at the first dates, what strikes the most is A and B, but C is also there if the needy person manages to find a real relationship. But, if you couldn't tell, I'm not a fan of generalizing people and traits, so I'm just listing what I've observed that sucks SOMETIMES when you get involved with a needy person. I'm not saying they are all bad or sucky to deal with, but neediness (however you spell it) and desperation can scalate to the three already mentioned behaviors, and they are not very nice, now are they?

I say it again: you most possibly CAN and SHOULD want relationships or specific people without being needy or desperate.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

We all (I hope) know what "the spark" is when it happens. I don't think any of us can avoid the "no chemistry" feeling unless we never date. Most of the time, the spark just isn't going to be there, and we just have to start over with the next person and the next until we find the chemistry.

However, there are definite ways we sabotage ourselves that kills chemistry immediately: Neediness, desperation, depression, sadness, anger, and entitlement will all kill chemistry dead. (Of course, in my humble opinion. I will be interested in seeing how 2cats feels about it.)

I would agree with the bottom ways to kill it, as you said. I've done some of these and when I looked back at the words I said and the way I carried myself I could understand why it was no good.

The first part though, I don't agree with. Not to start barking up this tree again but I just don't believe that it is this big chance element. I believe it is a skill, an offshoot of general charisma. Romance is a sort of negotiation, even manipulation in a sense though no one likes to use those words because it takes away from the magic, and those words have bad connotations.

I'd like to hear what 2cats has to say about it, as well. I'm curious.

No, manipulation is bad, forget negotiation, how unromantic. You have to be real. Be your real self. Manipulation, negotiation sounds like the "nice guy" who texted me Sunday, nice in order to get something, it's a turn-off. Maybe that is why I didn't like him, he was fake and I didn't know it. Now a guy who really is nice or kind, caring, smart, funny, sensitive, whatever his personality traits are, not as a means of negotiation or manipulation, but that's who he is, someone, not everybody, but someone is going to be into him for himself. Don't complicate it. It's simple, it's about making a real connection with another human being.

---

I watched this last night. I thought this might be helpful. And I do believe he's right.

 

[Case]

Now a guy who really is nice or kind, caring, smart, funny, sensitive, whatever his personality traits are, not as a means of negotiation or manipulation, but that's who he is, someone, not everybody but someone is going to be into him for himself. Don't complicate it. It's simple, it's about making a connection with a real person.

I totally agree with this. If it's not a mutual attraction, I don't think it's anyone's fault. It's just not a good match. When that happens, try not to take it personally, move on from it, keep trying, be relaxed, and you'll eventually find that mutual match.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Believe it or not you can be the best you that you can be and if the chemistry is not there then there is nothing you can do about it. It's nobody's fault, it's an animalistic attraction thing, it's either there or it's not. Sometimes it's immediate and sometimes it takes a little time. He didn't do anything wrong on the date. I just wasn't feeling it and I gave it a chance. I liked him as a person only, no physical desire.

My guess is that he somehow came off as not confident. Perhaps he had bad posture or body language. He was just nice, but not fascinating. Nice is common, nice is the expectation. Fascinating is what sets people apart. Like if they have similar interests or something, a passion for life. So I would hazard a guess that he was not that interesting of a fellow.

 

[Solivagant]

I can tell you that needy and desperate people sometimes, and I stress the word sometimes, are the worst to deal with. Several reasons, ladies and gentlemen, and I will make a list:

A) You never know if they really like you or the attention you are willing to give them. They idolize you. You are their world. And then you might not be able to give all the attention they want and they'll either push you harder until you have to cut 'em off or they scold, guilt-trip and demonize you, which is manipulative. Some needy people will do anything to get attention. (SOMETIMES)
B) SOMETIMES they want things to go too fast for one's liking. Some people don't like to rush into relationships and guess what needy and desperate people love to do?
C) GENERALLY needy people also might trade you easily. They like attention. And if there's someone else to give them more attention, even for a short time...

Usually, at the first dates, what strikes the most is A and B, but C is also there if the needy person manages to find a real relationship. But, if you couldn't tell, I'm not a fan of generalizing people and traits, so I'm just listing what I've observed that sucks SOMETIMES when you get involved with a needy person. I'm not saying they are all bad or sucky to deal with, but neediness (however you spell it) and desperation can scalate to the three already mentioned behaviors, and they are not very nice, now are they?

I say it again: you most possibly CAN and SHOULD want relationships or specific people without being needy or desperate.

^ This.

 

[kamya]

I can tell you that needy and desperate people sometimes, and I stress the word sometimes, are the worst to deal with. Several reasons, ladies and gentlemen, and I will make a list:

A) You never know if they really like you or the attention you are willing to give them. They idolize you. You are their world. And then you might not be able to give all the attention they want and they'll either push you harder until you have to cut 'em off or they scold, guilt-trip and demonize you, which is manipulative. Some needy people will do anything to get attention. (SOMETIMES)
B) SOMETIMES they want things to go too fast for one's liking. Some people don't like to rush into relationships and guess what needy and desperate people love to do?
C) GENERALLY needy people also might trade you easily. They like attention. And if there's someone else to give them more attention, even for a short time...

I've had this happen with some friends. Never with a potential partner. It does suck though.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I say it again: you most possibly CAN and SHOULD want relationships or specific people without being needy or desperate.

But how do you do that though? It seems that if you've decided you want a relationship, or a specific person, then you are no longer indifferent, you no longer have the dismissive, cocky, "cool guy" attitude which is the only way to get anywhere with girls. Without the indifference, you care about the outcome, and for that, women treat you like a pansy.

But if you just leave it up to fate, you may not like whoever it decides to give you. The odds are very small that fate will just deliver you the one you want most. In fact, there is a significant chance that fate will not send anyone your way at all. It's like ardour said - it seems that according to the rules of attraction, you can only have what you don't want, and if you actually want to get what you want, then you have to play mind games because if you don't actively try to influence the outcome, you'll just get stuck with what you don't want.

It seems that if you want a relationship or a specific person, then you are no longer apathetic towards being alone and no longer leaving your fate in the hands of random chance - doesn't that make you needy by definition?

It's a really annoying paradox - in order to get a relationship, you have to be apathetic. You can't be needy if you want a relationship. But if you want a specific girl, you are needy. BUT if you don't want to be needy, then you can't want a specific girl. Then you'll just get stuck with whoever, and won't be happy or you'll just learn to fake being happy with someone you don't really want. How can you have a specific romantic goal without coming across as needy?

 

[Tealeaf]

There's a pretty big, functional grey area between not caring and being needy or desperate, even speaking as someone who's 80/20 on women/men. I think a lot of dating failures complained about online just come from a huge misunderstanding of other people's feelings at this point (worsened by turning to a one-size-fits-all formula of how to behave).

Example:
a) I don't care if she texts me back at all.
b) I really, really hope she texts me back because we had a lot of fun on our last date and I feel like she gets me. I'll live if she doesn't, but it will hurt.
c) This is the fifth time I've checked today and she still hasn't texted me back, so I guess I'll send a third message asking if she's angry at me. If she doesn't text me back I'm going to slip into a suicidal episode. Please god I don't want my happiness to be taken away from me again.

 

[TheSkaFish]

There's a pretty big, functional grey area between not caring and being needy or desperate, even speaking as someone who's 80/20 on women/men. I think a lot of dating failures complained about online just come from a huge misunderstanding of other people's feelings at this point (worsened by turning to a one-size fits all formula of how to behave).

Example:
a) I don't care if she texts me back at all.
b) I really, really hope she texts me back because we had a lot of fun on our last date and I feel like she gets me. I'll live if she doesn't, but it will hurt.
c) This is the fifth time I've checked today and she still hasn't texted me back, so I guess I'll send a third message asking if she's angry at me. If she doesn't text me back I'm going to slip into a suicidal episode. Please god I don't want my happiness to be taken away from me again.

OK. I see what you're getting at and that does make sense. Option A probably doesn't want the girl if he doesn't care at all if she texts him back. He communicates so much indifference that the girl probably feels unwanted anyway. Option C seems like he is coming apart at the seams and comes off as a weakling, fundamentally repulsing the girl. That leaves Option B, who seems like the only rational option.

Dating still seems like an uphill battle though, even for a genuinely nice guy. Not a "nice guy" looking to trade niceness for sex, but someone who is actually nice. That's how I was raised. Being kind to humans and animals, being helpful and friendly, Disney movies, the whole lot. I believe in being nice, and when I meet a girl I like, I instinctively feel like being kind to her. I have some more "manly" interests I guess you could say, like cars and beer and rock music. But I am still what I consider nice. And in spite of what that video link said earlier in the thread about the "tough guys" being the ones who are actually insecure, I seem to have no chance against more thuggish types. Women these days for the most part seem to want a "gangsta"/drug dealer, a guido, a biker, or gtfo. It's tough.